Rolling The Dice ...
Let's get to the Chow to UCLA (with DeWayne Walker as his DC) rumors. This will be a red flag post on BN, just like we raised red flags over the hiring of Doc Wristen, Bob Connelly, Jay Norvell, and Jim Colletto. I think we have established a pretty good track record in this department over the years.
As they say, these rumors right now are "hot and heavy" all over UCLA online communities (and, no, its not just coming from EDSBS). People (read Dorrellistas), and certain groups of UCLA fans who always get all "hot and heavy" over some promising assistant coach "growing" into the head coaching position and proving themself to be the next John Wooden or Red Sanders), are already fantasizing about the idea of a Chow/Walker combination that would supposedly strike fear in the heart of TrOJans. There are just so many things wrong with this scenario I don't even know where to begin.
First of all, UCLA should never hire its head coach based on who will beat Southern Cal. People who try to adhere to this mentality are probably the same blowhards from the Donahue era who tried to sedate a UCLA fanbase by telling us that all is right with the world as long as we beat Southern Cal. You know, the same losers who were arguing for Dorrell to keep his job if he beat Southern Cal. These are the same losers who don't care about one underachieving 6-8 win seasons after another, as long as it was centered around beating Southern Cal. This is what kept Donahue on the job for five years too long. So the idea that we should hire Chow and Walker, two former assistants under Pom Pom, because that combo would give us the best chance to beat Southern Cal doesn't pass the smell test.
Also, I don't see how exactly Chow/Walker would strike fear into Heritage Hall. These guys are known commodities to Pom Pom. He knows their game and I am sure he is not worried about handling them on the recruiting trail.
Moreover, is there any evidence of Chow being a dynamic recruiter or personality, who would inject enthusiasm into our underachieving program? From what I have heard from friends who follow the Stanford football program very closely, this guy couldn't even sell himself in a set up that was supposed to be a slam dunk from him. Yeah, I get that Stanford made the wrong choice in Walt Harris. Yet, it was still Chow who completely "bombed" the interview when he had his chance. And that wasn't last time he bombed a hiring process. He wasn't even contacted by NC State when that job opened up last season. And reportedly ASU interviewed him, but went with Erickson. So all on a sudden we are supposed to be okay with UCLA taking a flier on this guy who has never led a team either in the NFL or in the pros?
And, make no mistake, going with Chow is rolling the dice as pointed out by Cal Poly Bruin over at Bruin Roar:
For someone who has had amazing coaching success for over 30 years, you have to wonder why he hasn't been given a head coaching position? Many have speculated that Chow hasn't gotten a gig because he has an abrasive, take-it-or-leave-it personality. He had a very well documented fall-out with the USC coaching staff that lead to him eventually leaving the school in 2005. He is also said to be a very bad interviewee and was passed over for the head coaching position at Stanford because he rubbed the AD the wrong way.
As a head coach, there comes other commitments outside of the football field. Chow may not be up for socializing with boosters and athletic department personnel. He may not be interested in sticking with a college head coaching job and jump back to the NFL where he can focus entirely on just the on-field coaching.
The other downside is that Chow is getting up there in years. He is definitely set in his ways and he didn't spend much, if any time, on the recruiting trail while at USC. As the head coach you have to be involved in recruiting whether you like it or not.
Verdict
Chow is a bit of an enigma for me. You got to love the offensive coordinator background and his cerebral approach to the game. If we could just harness that mind for good rather than evil, it would be awesome. Some of the personality issues could really be a problem. You would hate to have a dysfunctional staff trying to lead this team where Norm is pissing off all of his assistants and the administration.
Maybe I'm making to much of it but obviously no other school as thought it worthwhile to offer Chow a head coaching job. There has got to be something wrong with him. I'm not sure if UCLA wants to roll the dice and be the first to give him a shot. If Guerrero does take Norm and it works out, he'll be a genius. If it doesn't work out... well he might think about preparing his own resume as well.
Also, I don't buy the comparisons between Chow and Stoops and Chow and Richt. Those guys were at different stages of their careers when they were hired by their respective institutions as head coach. They didn't have the baggage of a 30 year career in which they were finding themselves in positions of screwing up one opportunity after another.
Let me also get to the absurd notion of Chow coming in here and Walker working under him as DC. I have also heard that the Chow idea has been floated to Walker to see if he would be OK under working for him as "head coach"?
Are you kidding me? UCLA is at a critical juncture in its football history as its AD is in position to make a hire that has the potential to reverse the malaise and underachievements of a couple of decades, and here we are hearing stories about UCLA looking to hire candidates who a defensive coordinator from a fired regime (with no head coaching experience) would find acceptable?
Do these guys have any idea what happened at Louisville this past season? You guys remember the Louisville Cardinals right, who lost their superstar coach Bobby Petrino to the Atlanta Falcons. So they bring in Steve Kagthorpe, who was apparently "forced" (per an email from a pretty good source we have) to retain some of Petrino's previous assistants, and that scenario blew up in his face. How do we know we will have the perfect "chemistry" between Chow and Walker (despite the inevitable spin we will hear out of the traditional media) that will not create a Louisville-like implosion at UCLA?
So how can we be assured that if Chow comes in and "enthusiastically" retains Walker on his staff that Chow will be safe when he turns his back to a guy who seems to be scheming for the top spot ever since he got here?
Can you imagine the gossip and stories next year if the offense functions well but the defense still has no answer to the spread, or if the defense stays above average but the offense doesn't respond to Chow?
We will be back to right where we started when we had rolled the dice with other assistant coaches in our two major sports during last three decades. Yeah, I get that Chow's resume is heavier and more burnished than the ones of Hazzard, Farmer, Lavin, Toledo, and Dorrell. But context matters. We have been through enough in the last 30 years.
We deserve better than the UCLA administration even thinking (and from what we hear they are considering "Chow/Walker" scenario seriously) about rolling the dice with yet another "experiment" for another 5-7 years. It seems like an unacceptable proposition to BN.
GO BRUINS.
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Hmm...
by dkao1 on Dec 10, 2007 4:45 PM PST reply actions
Dorrell in Durham
by DallasBruin on Dec 10, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
Hiring Chow as head coach...
On the other hand, if the guy wants to stick it to USC, hire Mendenhall as head man and encourage him to put Chow at OC.
The point is that some people are great coordinators and nothing more. There's nothing wrong with being a great coordinator. Chow seems like that guy. He just seems more like Norv Turner, Richie Petitbone, Bruce Coslet, Paul Hackett, Rich Kotite, and Buddy Ryan. He does not seem like Richt or Stoops, in large part because he's 20+ years older than they were when they got the head job at Georgia and OU, respectively, but there are other, pretty obvious factors as well, such as lower energy level, less outgoing etc.
I'd like that
Where is the Chow/DW rumor coming from?
It seems silly to me that this is even being considered. If what they say about Chow's "take it or leave it" attitude is true, then he seems like a guy who wouldn't want to be handcuffed with the prior regime's guys. In all his years of coaching, Chow probably has developed enough contacts to be able to put together his own, talented staff around him.
I think Walker is a good DC, but he's replaceable.
Also, you're rolling the dice on pretty much any candidate out there. None of these guys we're thinking of are slam dunks.
Als, you should probably not have excluded the "Positives" section from the Bruin Roar link. Excerpt:
"Norm Chow has an incredibly impressive track record as an offensive coordinator. His history of developing successful NFL quarterbacks would likely draw top high school prospects from across the country to Westwood. He has also overseen some of the most potent offenses in the history of college football and it is easy to see UCLA becoming a power house under Chow's oversight. That is very important in the PAC-10 where offensive prowess is paramount.
Emphasis mine.
by haoledave on Dec 10, 2007 5:10 PM PST reply actions
He doesn't want to be an OC anymore.
You know, it's possible that Chow's not been getting these jobs because, you know, he's Asian. If you believe that racism plays a part in the lack of minority hiring in the college ranks (not necessarily on behalf of the ADs themselves, but from boosters who aren't excited about hiring, say, a black coach), then obviously racial prejudices would also pertain to an Asian candidate as well.
There are plenty of people out there who are upset at how "Asians" have ruined UCLA. Stereotypes about Asians are out there. Or maybe people just think an Asian couldn't connect with black and/or inner-city recruits. I don't know.
Think about Ralph Freidgen -- the guy never got a shot at being a head coach until his alma mater called. Why? The common explanation was that he was too fat. Charlie Weis had the same knock on him. If people can be as so narrow-minded as to by pass a worthy candidate because he's fat, what would they think of someone who's Asian?
I'm curious about how Chow has supposedly "bombed" these interviews. He never seems to bomb them when it comes to being hired as an OC. What happens when he interviews for a head coaching job?
(Looking at resume)
AD: So, you've been title winning assistant coach for over thirty years. Your offenses have always been productive and innovative. Why do you think you can be as a head coach?
Chow: Well, I'm... oh wait, it's 2:00. It's time for my daily meal of eating a live puppy and raping a school boy. Can you give me 10 minutes?
by haoledave on Dec 10, 2007 5:27 PM PST up reply actions
I know that
It's also possible that he's not getting these jobs because, you know, he's not head coaching material. Saying that there's racism out there doesn't advance his cause any, and trying to imply that an institution that just hired a minority candidate should be "guilted" into hiring another is disgusting.
Not everyone is head coaching material, and his past 30 years is an indication of this. Surely there were head coaching jobs within that timespan with a lower profile that he could have pursued. There's no shame in being a great coordinator.
I'm not seeing the need to interject race into this again. It got ugly once with the idiot Streeter, and if we've learned nothing else from that, we should be sticking to his lack of head coaching credentials, not his ethnicity. As an aside, if there's anyone who has a personal stake in watching Chow succeed at a place like UCLA, it would be me, but I refuse to project my personal agenda ahead of the better interests of UCLA and its fanbase.
I also don't see the need to list your hyperbolic, fanciful, and rather disturbing narrative here.
Clarification
Do I have anything factual to back that up with? No, nobody from the Kentucky or Stanford administration called me up and said they were told not to hire an Asian.
I've dwelled on Chow's ethnicity getting in the way of him being hired in the past. What brought it up today were the comments on EDSBS regarding the Chow rumor. They fell into one of two categories:
Clearly, there are people out there who don't take Chow as a head coach seriously because of his race.Why did I bring it up? Well, everyone here is going on the premise that Chow interviews terribly. Well, what proof does anyone have of that? It's a possibility, sure, that when it comes to a head coaching interview, he tenses up and spouts a bunch of gibberish and reads from The Book of Mormon.
But it's also possible that people aren't comfortable with his race and him being the face of a major college football team.
by haoledave on Dec 10, 2007 7:12 PM PST up reply actions
Half the commenters
One more thing
I Agree with you
There is a wealth of knowledge on BN, and a search engine. Before, coming here and posting this stuff, you might want to read what's been written here so as to get a sense of who we are.
And, while I'm on the soap box, I'm tired of hearing the unproven crap about how good a DC DW is and how all of our defensive failures were the O's fault.
Perhaps, we can have a canned response to this crap, push on key, and have it come up.
No Apologies
Race and racial politics are very, very tricky and touchy. That's one thing I learned early on during my years in Westwood.
My point was that, maybe, Chow hasn't gotten an opportunity to be a head coach before (at Stanford, Kentucky, etc.) because of his ethnicity, and if that contributed to his inability to land a head coaching job before, then that shouldn't be held against him. That was, in no way, a slam or a slur against either UCLA or BN, and I don't believe that anything I wrote could be interpreted in such a manner.
It was my hope that I could mention this and that BN could read this, think about it, and agree or disagree. Or just ignore it. I wasn't trying to be provocative, I was just getting something out there I've had on my mind (and my chest) for a while. I am not an Asian-American, and have no particular agenda to advance, besides the betterment of UCLA and its football program.
To be labeled as "clueless" when people are launching harsh condemnations and screeds of the purely conjective, if not entirely imagined, Chow/Walker rumors is really disappointing. (If there is some basis to this rumor, I haven't seen it.)
Nestor, I've read EDSBS for a while now. My impression is that 90% of their readers/commenters don't follow the Pac-10 at all. It is, if anything, an SEC-centric blog. Saying that half their readers are Trojan fans is absurd, as is the suggestion that USC fans are surreptitiously pumping up Chow's candidacy in the hopes of leaving the UCLA program in an even worst state than it is. That reeks of paranoia.
My point was that, as a more nationally oriented blog compared to BN, there is perception among (ignorant) college football fans that Chow is a laughable candidate because of his ethnicity. Granted, one EDSBS post is not a very good polling sample. But it does tell me something.
Getting back to the HC search, I don't believe (unlike, apparently, much of BN) that our next HC needs prior head coaching experience. I've mentioned men before like Stoops, Alvarez, etc. achieved greatness at their programs without any prior HC experience. Hell, Larry Coker won a national title and should have won a second in his first two seasons without a lick of HC experience. Yes, the Coker era at UM flamed out pretty quickly, but I'd settle for a national title or two in the short run. (I'm too young to remember the glory days of the Red Sanders or Dick Vermeil regimes.)
Unfortunately, it seems that too much of BN has been shell-shocked by the Dorrell era to consider anything else but someone with HC experience. To me, that is, unfortunately, an unnecessarily shallow pool to draw from.
Sure, it's possible that Jim Mora, Jr., Brian Kelly or Bobby Hauck could lead us to the promised land. I'm personally psyched on Bronco Mendenhall, but he doesn't seem to keen on leaving Provo. Outside of that, I think Chow is our best bet. He wouldn't come here as an OC. But I think he'd be stellar as a HC.
And that's all I have to say.
Except: GO BRUINS.
by haoledave on Dec 10, 2007 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
Dave, I'll keep this short
How's this: "The reason Chow wasn't hired by other schools was because he was perceived as a great OC, but was not perceived as having the qualities that would make him a good head coach, maybe." You can't argue against that point because the major premise is assumed to be true.
That leaves facts. Many posit that lots of guys without head coaching experience have been successful. We have just finished that sort of experiment and it was five years of ..., well, you know what it was. There are plenty of people who are willing to gamble on someone without a track record, and more power to them. I am not. I suspect the majority of the contributors to the BN are not. I hope that Dan Guerrero is also unwilling to let another coach train on the job.
I just don't appreciate
A (possible) reprieve
I don't know, for a fact, why Chow hasn't gotten a prior hire at a school. Neither do you or anyone else, save a few ADs. We assume that he disintegrates when he's interviewed for HC jobs, but none of us have evidence as to why.
I believe that if Chow was hired as HC, our offense would be amazingly improved. No more 6 points against Utah, or 7 against USC. I understand that a HC has far more responsibilities than just the offense. But I believe that his talent and his knowledge would be a marked improvement over KD or Toledo or Donahue.
Think about it: Toledo had a 20-game winning streak, and he was a mediocre coach. When you hire a non-HC candidate for the HC position, you make a big gamble. I think that Chow would pay off in spades. His offenses would be talented and potent, and I believe that his wisdom would positively impact our defense.
I'm sorry if my race-related posts have upset people, but I'm imparting my UCLA-educated experiences here.
Oh, and I'm drunk.
For Jeebus' Sake: GO BRUINS.
by haoledave on Dec 10, 2007 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Too Many If's
None of the concerns regarding his lack of head coaching experience have been answered. You can repeat how the offense will "probably" be better till you're blue in the face, it doesn't matter because that's not the issue. This is why we need a coach with experience, because we cannot answer the most important questions we have regarding coaching candidates without taking yet another chance on an unproven candidate. No matter what, the fact remains that Chow has done one thing well: take the talent at his disposal and develop dynamic offenses around them. Unfortunately, being a successful head coach requires far more than that. UCLA must no longer be a training ground. It is a destination. No Chow/Walker (for head coach anyway).
Chow's ethnicity not an issue
by Tommy Bruin on Dec 10, 2007 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
respectable dissent
AFAIK, you don't get banned for advancing counterpoint on BN: Slammed maybe, but not banned.
the truth about Chow lies out there somewhere -- probably between T/N's "absolute no" basis and the vein you explored above.
one factoid re: Chow and the ASU non-hire was Carroll, who "reached down" (a la Darth Cheney) to his former AAD Lisa Love last December and called in a stop order... further escalating the Chow/Trojan beef.
by theREAL_LOGAN5 on Dec 11, 2007 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
Chow/ Walker
Bray's defense went from -0- all conference selections in 2006 to 3 in 2007. Walker meanwhile had 10 returning starters he had worked with in 2006. The same 2 who were all conference in 2006 (Davis and Horton) were all conference again in 2007- none of the other 8 starters under Walker's tutelage apparently improved enough and Davis remained stuck in 2nd team all conference.
If a mark of a good coach is that his player's improve, it is not clear how the above would support forcing any HC to keep Walker.
So not only are there issues with Chow, there are issues with Walker. Put them together and what do you have- ISSUES
What is UCLA willing to pay for a top coach?
Like the saying goes, "You get what you pay for". So is UCLA willing to pay to get what is necessary to get to the top?
Chow/Walker
Really now, let's see how much institutional dysfunction we can build into the process, shall we? A health dose of older many-times-passed-over coach who can't play well in the sand box. A dash of ambitious, self promoting assistant with his eyes firmly focused on his boss-to-be's job (and a sense of entitlement as the next guy waiting in the wings). A terribly depressing reliance on old notions of protecting recruiting classes and hiring assistants from within (while magically attributing them with near fantastic powers). A seat at the decision making table for the not so loyal assistant of the former HC.
Seriously, is this a joke? I get that this is speculation, and hope that DG isn't seriously considering this. But, I'm seeing enough to worry me.
Geez, are people so simple minded that they think it's just about adding one part offensive guru to one part above average journeyman DC, and, POW, head coaching happiness?
I guess we'll see what happens, but I really hope not this.
This doesn't make sense
Man good points
I also don't buy that a 60+ year old man who is documented as being anything but charasmatic was able to charm the socks off of our very intelligent AD.
What I am more likley to buy is that sports writers don't have any insight to what DG is really thinking and manuevering but they aren't allowing that to stop them from putting something in print.
Hell, I've got a tone of unnammed sources that say Bill Belichick is taking the job and Mike Leach is the OC and Ben Howland is his DC. My sources are as good as any of the reporters that I've read this week.
Your sources
Eh
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Dec 10, 2007 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
No offense
May be DG will prove to us that he is "different." But the way this has been unfolding lot of us are having the sense of "we have seen this movie before."
Until I know for sure Chow will not be the next HC, I am not going to rest easy.
Well
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Dec 10, 2007 7:17 PM PST up reply actions
Actually
Well we must have conflicting sources
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Dec 10, 2007 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
This is all so Watergate
If you are unable or unwilling to tell us exactly were the info comes from than I choose to believe my own logic. Chow does not top the current list IMO.
Okay
I am still cautiously optimistic that everything will turn out okay, and I have been through it all as well. I just have a feeling everything will be okay.
I will trust DG until he gives me a reason not to.
by godblesstyus95 on Dec 10, 2007 8:21 PM PST up reply actions
Mendenhall
Chow/Walker/DG Threesome
Actually there is no Bruin who wants this over more than me. It's year end, the busiest time of the year for me and I am spending HOURS everyday on BN, on the internet seeking the smallest scrap of information on the coaching search. DG please, I need to get some work done...
I will say this about the Norm Chow - DyNoMite scenerio. Anybody been watching the Titans lately? Boring bad football. Not all the OC's fault but honestly, is Chow even AWAKE upstairs in the booth? And with DeWayne, this guy needs to go to the back of the line and work his way to the front. Considering him to be HC of a major division I program is a joke.
That said, if this happens, I will be spending hours on DumpDG.com so hey, advertisers out there, you definitely want to get your ads on DumpDG.com 'cause it's gonna be HUGE !
by CalPolyBruin on Dec 10, 2007 6:42 PM PST reply actions
Chow
Yes
sounds right.
Damn. I think you and Fox have finally convinved for me to root for Chow to get a job somewhere else...
In other words
Once again no thanks. And if DG goes this route his credibility will be severely damaged (if not shot forever) on BN.
Chow will not be the next HC
Just one person's opinion
I think Mooch is a few down on the list.
I still think that DG is eyeing a college coach(s) and at the very least is going to court said coach(s) before offering to Mooch. Or Chow (shudder).
According to Spokane papers, DW will
A Lot Less Credible
Ooops. Played the wrong card -- the you better grab me before I'm off the market card -- and then wasn't even interviewed.
Hurry
When I was a student at UCLA, I got a job in a boiler-room phone sales place with a canned sales pitch pretty much like this - it was all a rip off of course. Only stayed there about a week.
by Tommy Bruin on Dec 10, 2007 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
ABW - Anyone But Walker
Playing the Age Card
But, I do disagree that being 60 is a disability. Maybe, that's because I'm 63, can still feed myself and tie my shoes -- when I can find them.
If Mike Leach were 60, I would still want him.
We are willing to accept coaches who likely will move on after a few years. So, if we are not looking for a candidate for life, why impose an age test?
When I was young, I lived the "Don't trust anyone over 30" mantra. To a certain extent it was based upon fact. The idea was that people over 30 had already developed vested interests and were less likely to accept the social change we envisioned.
However, unless you show me that an older candidate has vested interests and won't be flexible, I'm not sure age matters.
And, I won't buy that 60 year olds can't reach out to or relate to young players. That's an issue for an individual candidate.
Finally, remember that a HC is like a CEO -- and a good HC has a great staff. Much of what a HC does is create a situation where his subordinates can shine.
To me, the issue is who should that CEO be, not how old he should be.
There are many reasons to not want Chow but, on my list, age isn't really a factor.
Its a good point 66
Then again we have a President who got busted for snorting cocaine and drunk driving. So I think we should be ok with that. If we were to go to tier 2 option it should be someone like Mike Price, a coach with experience, not an unproven commodity like Chow.
All the talk about Chow
I don't think he (or anyone else) is a good enough OC to pay him HC money to be an OC.

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