Bruins Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: World Soccer Digest for Soccer Fans!

The Greatest Program Of All Time: The Ultimate Standard

Today is Coach’s 98th Birthday.

If you are a registered member of Bruin Nation or a regular visitor, I urge you to wish the greatest teacher ever to coach any sports to wish him a Happy Birthday. To put it simply he is lot more than a Coach to the extended family in Bruin Nation. So wish him a Happy Birthday by posting here.

Now speaking of Coach and his program (the UCLA basketball program as it is right now is still his program), I stumbled into a rather amusing series that ran recently on MSNBC couple of weeks ago. As I have been completely wrapped up in tracking details of our football season, I didn’t have the opportunity to take note of this recent series by Mike Miller (a Kansas Graduate) who was doing a countdown of the greatest programs of all time.

Mike penned UCLA at number 4 behind Kentucky, North Carolina, and Kansas (his alma mater). Here was Mike’s (curious) reasoning behind why he didn’t put UCLA at number 1:

UCLA’s place among the elite – college basketball’s elite of Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and Indiana – was assured thanks to those titles, but it never again equaled that run under Wooden (who could?). Its basketball fortunes have been uneven ever since, to say nothing of when Wooden first started at UCLA or before him.

The Bruins haven’t suffered in the post-Wooden era. They won it all in ’95 and have been to the last three Final Fours. But that isn’t the same consistency shown by North Carolina, Kentucky and Kansas.

To be clear:

Between the 1963-64 and the 1974-75 seasons, UCLA was 335-14 (.9599 win percentage), with 10 titles and 11 final fours.

The rest of the time: the Bruins’ record is 1,311-705 (.6463), with 1 title and 7 final fours. That’s still impressive, but it’s a record more on par with Arkansas (1,473 wins, .6463 %, 1 title and 6 Final Fours), which is a top 20, but not top 5 program.

Get that?  Mike figured out a way to diminish UCLA’s 11 national championships by isolating out the record of the years Bruins didn’t win the NCAA titles!

It gets even more absurd in the comment section to Mike’s article. After getting torched by commenters who methodically called him out on his silly reason, Mike dug himself a deeper hole, by explaining how he came up with his questionable rankings re the greatest programs of all time:

I used 11 categories: wins, win percentage, NCAA titles, Final Fours, NCAA tournament win percentage, NCAA tournament appearances, regular-season conference titles, last time a school missed the NCAAs, recent dominant seasons (years with more than 25 wins), NBA players produced and NIT wins. (I'll post the point totals after I get to No. 1.)

That gives a lot of weight to NCAA tournament success (it's half of the method), but doesn't make anything more important than the other.

After I settled on categories, I ranked schools by how they fared in each category. According to their rank, they received one point. If you ranked lower in a specific category, you took a big hit. Team with the lowest total was No. 1 overall. It would've been easier to assign a numerical value to each category, but I thought this was suitable.

It is the best way to do this? Maybe not. But it certainly wasn't intended to favor one team, just teams that are successful overall and in March.

Well, once again it was his commenters who tore his dubious methodology to shreds. From jd in Los Angeles:

I immediately see at least two problems with your methodology (assuming I understand it correctly).  The first problem (and this is a major one), is that it sounds like you are weighting each of your 11 categories equally.  That's absurd.  Being ranked first in NCAA titles is just as important as being first in NIT wins?  What?!?

Secondly, by assigning points based solely on where a school is ranked within each category, your system does not take into account the magnitude of dominance within that category.  For example, look at the difference between 1st and 3rd place in two different categories: championships and wins.  In championships, UCLA (11) has more than twice as many as 3rd place Indiana (5).  That's a HUGE difference.  In wins, 1st place Kentucky (1966) has only 23 more wins than 3rd place Kansas (1943).  That's less than a two percent difference!  Yet your methodology gives both first place teams and both third place teams the same scores.  That leads to very misleading results.

Gabe in Oakland, CA gave Mike the following lesson on how he used minor data points and ended up missing the major point:

Here's a little brain twister to help you understand why Mikey Boy.  UCLA has 11 titles Kentucky is #2 with 7.  Here's where it gets tricky so follow along now or you might miss the point.  That means that the disparity between #1 and #2 is 4 titles! 4!  4 titles are more than ALL but 2 other schools have ever won! Indiana's 5 (3 of which came in late 30's and early 40's) and UNC's 4 are those two schools.  Of those two, only UNC can even come close to maybe having a claim to historical superiority, but even that is pretty absurd.  UCLA has 7 more titles than UNC which means that the disparity between the Bruins and Tarheels is equal to the TOTAL number of titles for the #2 team all time.  UCLA is so far ahead of everyone else that at the current pace it would take #2 another 60 years to catch UCLA assuming the Bruins don't win another one.  So it's not that National titles are the only metric that matters, it's that UCLA's total is so absurdly dominant that no other statistic is necessary to show who is #1.  

Things like all time wins, conference titles, etc. should be tie breakers, especially because some programs (like UCLA) simply haven't been in existence as long as others.  Tough to be the all time wins leader when other schools have a 35 year head start.

You're using minor data points to prove your major point and selectively ignoring the impact major datapoints (final fours and national titles) for UCLA because their timing doesn't conform to your arbitrary rubric.

Also, you're basically using arbitrary timelines to discount UCLA's titles. Would it have been better if UCLA had won 5 or 6 titles in 33 years (1963-1995)?  I guarantee you that if that was the case, UCLA would be higher in your rankings.  Do you realize how absurd that sounds?  You're basically penalizing them for being so ridiculously dominant that their titles weren't spaced out enough.

And then from Malibu Scott (who was simply on fire in the comment threads):

When you decide to create a "best list" using a number of numerical factors -- which themselves require judgment -- once you are finished you have to step back and see if the final result meets the reality test.  (OK, call it the laugh test.  On either basis, rating UCLA 4th flunks.)

The weight you have given to each factor may or may not be appropriate.  Of course it's your judgment, but once you're done with the statistical matrix you've created you can't be seduced (blinded) by the result.  Ask yourself if UCLA deserves to be 4th.  While some will argue with you about who should be no. 1, I doubt anyone here thinks your final result -- making UCLA 4th -- is a rational result.

How far back did you go?  To 1890?  Did you include a "strength of schedule" factor or did you consider every win the same?  50 years ago, and earlier, there were a lot of "military" teams from various units, and AAU teams playing college teams.  They were awful and college teams slaughtered them.  This was less true on the west coast, more true in the midwest and on the Atlantic seaboard.  Do you see a pattern emerging?  (Remember who won the first NCAA tourney -- Oregon -- a team which played a number of AAU squads but also played real colleges.)

In any event, why don't you go back and look at what you've done and tweak it to meet whatever reality test you think it needs.  We'll all forget about this embarrassment.

Needless to say Mike was thoroughly humiliated for coming up with that absurd list.

There is another important (and some would consider a crucial) criteria Mike conveniently ignored. He did not take into consideration which school has produced most NBA draft picks. Yes, UCLA is at the top of that list (which North Carolina at close second), which we blogged about here and here. One would think that criteria would be considered as a significant one in coming up with the list of greatest college hoops program of all times (it certainly seems to be a big deal by folks who closely follow the movement of talented basketball players from college to the NBA).

We should make something very clear. Kentucky, North Carolina and Kansas have had a lot of great teams in last few decades. They clearly belong in the upper echelon of college hoops along with UCLA. However, to put UCLA behind those programs by selectively de-emphasizing the unmatched greatness of Coach John R. Wooden is just laughable. It doesn’t pass the smell test.

Also, does anyone really want to argue that those programs will not trade their record in exchange for the 11 championship banners UCLA has hanging inside the Cathedral of college hoops? Another data point to consider here. The UCLA basketball program is so strong it was able to withstand the total incompetence of a poser head coach such as Steve Lavin and still manage to go to 5 Sweet-16s (I know we don't care about those stats here in Westwood) just based on the power of our program's talent. Can you imagine someone like Lavin being able to replicate that at any other program?

Again, I will just let our head coach explain very slowly what should be considered as the gold standard when it comes to measuring the greatest program of all time:

 
HT to blacjack8484 from Gutty Little Bruins for that priceless clip.

Of course CBH made those comments after he coached his Ben Ball warriors to an Elite Eight victory over Mike Miller’s Kansas Jayhawks two years ago in San Jose.

Anyways, as Coach Howland said "at the end of the day it is all national championships." That should be the gold standard and we can consider other factors after that. People can come up with all the rankings and lists they want while presenting their arguments re. which is the greatest college basketball program of all time. None of those lists will have any shred of credibility, if they deemphasize the championships UCLA won during the reign of Coach Wooden.

Thankfully we have a head coach right now who understands, reveres and guards the unmatched legacy of Coach Wooden (calling himself "the caretaker of John Wooden’s UCLA program"), and is doing everything he can to live up to that gold standard.

With that said ... don't forget to wish Coach Happy Birthday here. That's the least you can to appreciate the man who built in Westwood, what we believe is the greatest basketball program of all time.

Happy Birthday Coach.

GO BRUINS.

0 recs  |  Comment 9 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

love that clip

its great that CBH knows all that history off the type of his head.

"when you've seen how big the world is, how can you make due with this?"

by silverlakebruin on Oct 14, 2008 7:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I could care less what some guy at Kansas thinks about our program

Kansas? I don’t think so. One of the oldest lines in the world of sports is “Why did KU put in astroturf? To keep their dance team from grazing.”

Take a random sample in any ten cities on the earth and ask ten random people what school they think of when they think college basketball, and all ten answers will be the same, and it won’t be freakin’ Kansas. What a clod that guy is.

by Fox 71 on Oct 14, 2008 8:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Howland is THE coolest

coach in America. That is such an awesome little video. I never get tired of watching that.

by bruin95 on Oct 14, 2008 8:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

HOWLAND IS MY HOMEBOY

Did you see how incredulous he was that he even had to expand on his initial point? He (as well as BN might I add) believes that U-C-L-A is a sufficient answer to the question posed to him.

A very happy birthday to Coach, builder of the Greatest Program of All Time, and cheers to that program’s caretaker: Coach Ben Howland.

by Tydides on Oct 14, 2008 8:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great Post

It is great when people come out of the internet and flame some hack for writing some poor piece of journalistic crap and come out sounding better than the "journalist in the first place! Much props to JD, Gabe, and Scott for writing well reasoned and statisically sound responses.

I love that Howland clip! I had never seen it before today. I love that smug little look with which he answered the question. And elaborated upon it.

Just for the record, for any trolls in here looking for reasons to hate us. We are not sad delusional people living in the past. We have a lot to celebrate in the here and now. And, as Nestor pointed out, even during our worst time, the Lavin years, we accomplished things Many? Most? schools have not. Our worst coach had a better record than many other coaches and schools have. Our worst coach had a better record than USC’s best coach. (I’m sure somebody can pull some stats out of some encyclopedia to prove me wrong on that one, but name one SC coach who had more Sweet 16s or wins against #1s than Steve Lavin did. No? Thought so.)

All that aside, The Wooden Years were pretty damn special. So you’ll excuse us if we won’t let those memories (or banners) fade into obscurity or let them collect dust. Some of Coach Wooden’s and UCLA’s records from that era are not only all time records for College Basketball, they rank among the best records of all time, for any sport. In my books, the argument should not be whether UCLA, Kentucky, Indiana, or North Carolina is #1. the argument is whether, UCLA, Boston Celtics, Or New York Yankees is #1

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Oct 14, 2008 9:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The other sports are a decent comparison

The Yankees have 26 championships, 16 more than the Cardinals at #2. Nobody would put them at #2 in a list of all-time baseball teams, as much as we might want to.

Yet look, between 1978 and 1996, no World Series wins, and only one appearance! And no wins from 1963 and 1976 either! That’s a 2,782-2,421 record, a .535 winning percentage, 32 points below their alltime total, with just 2 championships and 6 World Series appearances! How can they possibly be #1?

Oh wait. They still have two-and-a-half times the number of championships next place does.

by jaffa on Oct 15, 2008 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Happy birthday coach!

You’re the best… thank you for everything.

by gabe08 on Oct 14, 2008 9:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

great clip

BH had the look of “What! Are you kidding me?! Read my lips, U-C-L-A”

by brewinz on Oct 15, 2008 6:55 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Awesome clip

I, too, had never seen that clip before it was posted on BN. Many thanks for that one. BH’s response (and look) is just priceless.

by Barnes2JJ on Oct 15, 2008 9:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bruins Nation, an unofficial daily online scrap book covering the greatest collegiate athletic program in the nation. GO BRUINS.
Start posting about the Bruins »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Images_small
UPDATE: Rivalry Game Ticket Thread
Morrell_small
Wildcat and the UCLA Running Game
Ucla_small
Everyone needs to calm down about Ben Ball
Trojanssuck_small
An Angel in the Defensive Backfield
Small
UCLA at Washington State: A memory

Recent FanPosts

Small
More evidence that the LA Times might be pro-U$C/ anti-UCLA
100_1894_small
Like Coach Said...
Telemachus_small
ASU @ UCLA Highlights
Small
Darren is Going Nuts v. Hawks tonight
Bruinsnation_small
Dragovic Needs To Focus On Getting His Life Together ...
Images_small
Bauer Paces Blue To Blue-Gold World Series Sweep
Small
My two game season starts tonight
Small
Have You Been Watching Darren?
2603_1028618641249_1398823305_30086007_6195771_n_small
Trying to Keep the Mojo Going

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

094_small Ajax

Bruinsnation_small Nestor

Menelaus2_small Menelaus

Arron_afflalo1_small Tydides

Brad_pitt_as_achilles_small Achilles

Small Meriones

Telemachus_small Telemachus

Small Odysseus

Blue_bellerophon_small Bellerophon

Authors

Images_small Ryan Rosenblatt

Official Partner of CBS Sports