Bruins Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Got Chart if You Want It: Iron Bowl Comparisons

Waiting for the Facts on Dragovic

As usual, CBH is doing the right thing -- and so should we.

Star-divide

 

Nestor asked me to turn this comment to his post on Dragovic into a separate Fan Post.

In Nestor's post, CBH is quoted as saying that "I'm going to wait for all the facts."

 

We must all “wait for all of the facts”.

I’ve written, several times here, at great length about “fairness”, “due process” and the fact that all who are charged are “innocent until proven guilty”.

ND has simply been charged.

I want to make one thing very clear. Our society should not tolerate violence of any kind. Those who perpetrate acts of violence should be punished.

Violence against anyone is unacceptable.

“Domestic violence” is an area often treated as “special” — one in which the beat officers are instructed to apply a “zero tolerance” policy. What that means is that they have no discretion in deciding whether to arrest and take into custody the alleged perpetrator — be it a man or woman. If a domestic partner says there was violence — there will be an arrest.

Most of the cops I know dislike “domestic” calls more than most others — because they are often called in by one party or the other, not because there was violence but because one party wants to exert leverage or up the ante against the other. In some instances, there was no violence — but zero tolerance often mandates that an arrest and removal be made.

I do not know whether the LAPD has a “zero tolerance” policy in this area. Rotten, do you know? If it does, that, in itself may explain why Drago spent a night in jail.

I am not saying it didn’t happen or that it did. All I’m saying is that CBH is taking the approach we all should take — let’s wait until the facts come in.

For more on this topic, please read my cautionary notes on the so called MJD incident. There was a lot of wailing and angst, MJD lost stature in the eyes of some, only to have he facts completely exonerate him.

Let’s give ND the presumptions of innocence to which he is entitled. There will be plenty of time to talk about appropriate dispositions if he is proven to be guilty.

sjh

PS. There is a difference between a societal sanction and one by an athletic team. CBH can make an administrative decision unfettered by the procedures mandated by the Constitution and the criminal justice system.

If there is any coach in any sport that I trust to do a fair investigation and do the right thing pending a full legal disposition, it is CBH.

One concern I have is that because some here have consistently nailed cheety petey for his lenient applications of administrative discretion, to justify our position we will demand that CBH act immediately and harshly — even though the facts might not warrant it.

We have good reason to distrust cp and absolutely every reason to trust CBH. Let’s just step back and let him handle this.

PPS. It is clear that my many years of work with the criminal justice system and my years of teaching criminal and Constitutional law have affected my judgment and conclusions. I have seen far too many people stigmatized by the reports of conduct that later proved to be unfounded.


 

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

3 recs  |  Comment 22 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Trojan reaction

The reaction of the Trojan blogger who runs SBN’s SuC blog is classy. No links since Nestor and BN don’t want us to link to thrash but here it is (and I am saving it in my email in case he tries to edit)

We’ll probably hear some stupid excuse that because he is from war torn Serbia that he suffers from PTSD or some nonsense explaining his actions.

Trivializing PTSD as “nonsense.” I guess not surprising from a classy bunch who thinks it is alright for players to make racist jokes on facebook. Those people are disgusting.

by bluestreet on Nov 8, 2008 10:14 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

trOJans are the scum of the earth

Notice how coming from a war torn area and suffering because of it (not saying that Drago does, I don’t know his situation) would be classified as a “stupid excuse” but essentially explaining away blatent racism with “boys will be boys” is perfectly acceptable over there. Roiding up? Doesn’t matter, cause they’re not on the team anymore! Clearly not a “stupid excuse”. Sanchez the rapist? BLAME THE VICTIM. I wonder if they realize how stupid they make themselves look by throwing stones from their glass houses.

I wonder if that dumbass will come on here to apologize for his stupid and offensive remarks.

I also find it offensive that they think we’re actually like them and seek to make excuses, no matter how twisted and convoluted when situations like this arise. Based on the reaction, this is clearly not the case, but it obviously doesn’t matter. trOJans aren’t big on “facts” and “logic” anyway.

by Tydides on Nov 8, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You guys need to put on the brakes with the whole PTSD thing

The writer you are referencing is a former Navy corpsman and I myself will soon be an officer in the U.S. Army. I am sure that he would never trivialize post traumatic stress disorder, but at the same time I know from my own experience in the military that people claim all kinds of ridiculous things (including PTSD) to either get disability money or get out of assignments. It is actions like those that truly trivialize serious disorders and divert resources from individuals who really need assistance and treatment.

by Laughing Stock on Nov 9, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So why bring it up?

Seems like a stupid and insensitive thing to do, not that this behavior surprises me coming from a trOJan moron. It’s the same reason people make fun of Godwin’s Law, injecting Hitler references in an inappropriate situation. I also don’t care for this argument from authority, as it does absolutely nothing to make me believe your side of things. It only highlights how you have absolutely no way to objectively defend this stupid comment, so out comes the argument from authority, which only confirms that my point of view is right, because if you had an actual argument to the contrary as opposed to a convoluted “because I say so”, you would have used it rather than use a distraction.

PS. This is coming from a Three Star general in the army. This is the internet, Prove me wrong.

by Tydides on Nov 9, 2008 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No surprise from a trOJan

An Army officer would know better than to defend an insensitive, politically-incorrect comment that trivalizes a disorder that affects thousands of American servicemen and servicewomen. Well, an officer from West Point would know better. I’d expect that kind of crap from someone, even an officer, from U$C.

The funny thing, L$, is that in no way do you address the issue: you simply say he couldn’t have been actually trivalizing it. You can’t say why he wasn’t, you don’t say how he wasn’t; all you say is that he wasn’t and that your military experience gives you the expertise to make such a judgment.

Then again, I should, of course, heed the word of a guy who claims "experience in the military" while at the same time stating he is only about to be an officer.

But since we are just making arguments from claimed authority, then guess what L$, I have some bad news for you: UCLA is superior to U$C in every way. Since I know everyone from both UCLA and U$C, including every graduate for the past two decades, have met every faculty member at both schools, read each course syllabus, taken every class at both schools, read every article written by every faculty member, I can declare, without doubt, UCLA is superior.

It’s the internet. Prove me wrong.

by Bellerophon on Nov 9, 2008 9:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree with your point of view LS

But only one thing stands in the way. Since I have some respect for you I’ll present my POV and not try and be negative towards you. If it comes off that way, I apologize.

Here is the $C argument as I see it: Bruins always point out our foibles while not realizing that everyone has the the same or similar foibles. I will agree in arguendo to this presumption even though, what we do is less dramatic both in quantity and quality.

The problem with this argument is that $C pundits spend a great deal of time trying get out from under allegations of their own. They say Lake is a scumbag and Mayo had scumbags hanging around him. They contort themselves in order to not face up to the facts that certain superstar players are lowlifes themselves and the school does nothing to remedy this situation. So basically, most $C people deny the fact that Bush and Mayo got into trouble, and if it was their fault, it certainly isn’t the fault of the university.

So, now something happens at UCLA. Then you all jump on us saying “See! They get into trouble too!” The problem with that is $C people have spent all their time denying their own problems so how can they now come to the realization that we are just as bad? I mean, doesn’t this mean that we are WORSE since allegations should stick to us and the $C allegations should be excused? Not buying it for a minute.

Honestly, I am tired of this back and forth. I really don’t care anymore. I say, let our players behave like $C players. I say LET ALL SCHOOLS have players like $C players because the NCAA is a joke and I don’t see why we have to comply and you don’t. So the only way to fix this is to take a step down and bathe in cesspool just like $C does. Then you guys can say we are bad and we can do the same, no larger opinion will be swayed either way. But, maybe, just maybe, the NCAA will start paying attention and enforce the rules again.

by Bruins102NCAA on Nov 10, 2008 1:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Trust Me when I say that

No one at USC is happy with being under investigation from the NCAA for Bush or Mayo. And I will also be the first to say that Mayo and Bush likely did accept some kind of benefits (although in OJ’s case, I am not entirely sure that he knew where the money was coming from, but who knows for sure). Anyways, I feel like USC has nothing to do with the agents or organizations who gave these players money, and I doubt SC purposefully turned a blind eye to it. Regardless, if the NCAA decides that USC did not have institutional control then so be it.

Also, please let the record show that I think the right decision in the Dragovic situation is to wait for the facts and then decide on an appropriate punishment or action. I think it is sometimes easy to overreact to a situation and make rash decisions that can really damage someone’s reputation or future when it is so easy to just be patient and let all of the information come to the surface.

Finally, I am not trying to anger anybody over here. I am just trying to give you a look at our respective backgrounds and understand that the writer comes from a position that is very close to the disease of post traumatic stress disorder. I am not trying to “chastise” anybody or make overly generalized moral statements. I am not trying to say that Dragovic does or does not have PTSD either, I am only saying that no one at CC would purposefully try to trivialize any kind of serious disease or condition. I am sincerely sorry if I was not clear enough in my writing.

by Laughing Stock on Nov 10, 2008 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Close, but not quite...

Okay, so let’s break it down into the most basic parts.

You’re claiming “I am only saying that no one at CC would purposefully try to trivialize any kind of serious disease or condition” such as PTSD.

Yet, Bruingirl83 hit it right on the head, and you failed to address it: it’s not as if we introduced the subject and your fellow responded with a comment that could be seen as insensitive.

Rather, it was a CC writer who injected the subject of PTSD into the discussion, and did so in a way that, on a straight reading of the comment, looked to trivalize either the disease or the situation Dragovic finds himself in.

by Bellerophon on Nov 10, 2008 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think...

That is a fair assessment of the situation. I did not intend to insinuate that that you guys brought up the whole PTSD thing, so if that is how I came off then my mistake.

by Laughing Stock on Nov 10, 2008 8:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, but...

I think we both agree what the situation is. What we take issue with is that you came in here and simply declared, without stating how or why, that your guy could not have been trivalizing PTSD. Simply declaring it to be true, without saying why, is pretty weak.

Anyway, the main point is that someone at CC trivalized something serious just to make a dig at UCLA. All you’ve done thus far is declare that’s not the case, without addressing how or why it isn’t.

Saying it doesn’t make it true. I know that’s hard for many trOJans to grasp, but I have a feeling you might get it.

by Bellerophon on Nov 10, 2008 9:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps...

If I changed my wording to “I am sure that he would never intentionally or purposefully trivialize post traumatic stress disorder” Maybe never was too strong of a word to use.

by Laughing Stock on Nov 10, 2008 9:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be better...

…and it’s got a bit more meat to it, since you know him, I’d say it’s fair to speak to what you know of his character. Phrasing it that way, I think, takes the comment from a position of authority to say “it is this way because I said so” and makes it more “he wouldn’t because I know him.”

Of course, despite your assurances, we are free to think what we will. On one hand, you’re telling us he wouldn’t have intentionally or purposefully trivalized PTSD. On the other hand, the comment sure seems to be a clear indication he would.

Don’t get me wrong: I get coming here and sticking up for your boy. That’s a cool thing to do for one of your own. Just don’t expect to persuade anyone here he wasn’t being a dick.

by Bellerophon on Nov 11, 2008 9:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LS,

that is just beyond ridiculous. Of course that statement, which directly and unequivocally trivializes both PTSD and the situation in Serbia was intentional and purposeful.

Your Navy corpsman just stood up on his personal soapbox and completely discounted and disenfranchised both a severe anxiety disorder which effects about 8% of our nation’s general population, (more than 50% of our Vietnam vets), and a small country which has quite literally been torn to bloody pieces by violence, in one sentence.

There is no “never” or not, there just “is.” He said it, and he meant it. You may very well be sincerely concerned that “It is actions like those that truly trivialize serious disorders and divert resources from individuals who really need assistance and treatment,” but it’s your own guy with whom you should be concerned. In this instance, you chose to take him up as your cause to defend. No amount of tortured “Oh, what he really meant to say was…” is going to be effective. His conduct is ignorant, appalling and abhorrent, period.

For God’s sake, lend your estimable knowledge, intellect and skill to someone worthy of them, at least.

Love My Bruins

by Bruingirl83 on Nov 12, 2008 2:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Laughing Stock, you probably are too young to remember the "non-denial denial."

The fact of the matter is that your post is a classic non-denial denial, straight from the Nixon White House. The “if we did it,” we didn’t mean to, but we didn’t do it, so our sorrow for having done something we didn’t mean to do shouldn’t be taken to mean that we actually did it. I am not a crook. Or to put a more recent spin on it, I did not have sex with that woman.

Your justsc apology never really addresses the issue of what is happening at justsc. It sounds to me like you (and by you I mean both you and the institution you represent) are “not happy with being under investigation from the ncaa (I can’t put that in caps) for Bush or Mayo” because of the investigation rather than for what the guys actually, truly, no kidding did. You (again both individually and collectively) never face that undeniable fact that bu$h did what the Yahoo reporters proved he did. You never address the absurd contention that no one in the entire athletic department ever thought or had reason to think that bu$h was getting paid while purportedly a student. The issues are the same regarding OJ2. Not to put too fine a point on the OJ2 business, but you are simply delusional if you believe that OJ2 had no idea why people kept shoving money and clothes and plasma TV’s into his hands, or that no one in the athletic administration knew a thing. The Sergeant Schultz “I know nothing, I see nothing” defense is great comedy on TV, but it is plainly absurd in real life.

You express doubt that justsc’s administration deliberately turned a blind eye to the corruption that has been the cornerstone of the justsc athletic program as long as I have been alive. As long as you have that doubt, you deny yourself the right to be treated as an intellectual equal, at least as far as I am concerned.

Read what Clarence Reese said happened during his tenure, and explain how anything is different now.

But until you get beyond the “if we did it” stage to the “what can we do to clean up the program” stage, then nothing you say can possibly have any credibility with me.

by Fox 71 on Nov 11, 2008 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Now

That is the most tortured, backwards “reasoning” I have read in a long, long time.

Your former Navy corpsman introduces the subject of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder into a discussion—seemingly solely because the player involved is from a country indisputably long suffering from civil war and socio-political chaos, genocide, and campaigns for “ethnic cleansing”—then you have the utter audacity to chastise those who comment upon that corpsman’s ill-advised, insensitive, ignorant and wholly uninformed statement in a negative fashion.

Do I have that right?

(P.S. This is from a person who has never been in the military. Prove that significant.)

Love My Bruins

by Bruingirl83 on Nov 10, 2008 2:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is why he needs to go

unless he’s proven innocent. I realize that in a court of law, it’s innocent until proven guilty. However, this is UCLA Basketball, the program that Wooden built, not a court of law. He needs to prove that he didn’t do this, or he needs to be kicked off of the team. If we allow him to stay on the team, UCLA will have to deal with these same types of rumors that come out of $C on a regular basis. I don’t want our program’s reputation to be like $C’s. I’m willing to wait until Howland has the facts, but if he’s not exonerated, he has to go.

by truebruin on Nov 8, 2008 11:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

From a reliable source, but admittedly, hearsay...

Nikola went to her place, opened the door in on her accidentally as she was right there, knocked her down. She freaked out, thought it was a hostile move, and called the police. When they got there, she tried to explain and tell them it was ok, but they arrested him anyway. I know this is hearsay, but it might go a little ways to help worried fans chill out a little until all the facts become public. And this source was a good friend of both Nikola and his ex-girlfriend. So let’s deal with this when the facts come out, until then, who cares what the Condoms say?

by yarrrp on Nov 8, 2008 2:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks yarrrp

Can you let us know asap if you hear or read any thing from the law enforcement officials that confirms what you heard?

by Nestor on Nov 8, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This would really be a relief, and I can totally see how this can happen. Knowing a little about law enforcement in LA, once the domestic abuse type call goes in, they HAVE to arrest someone… (please someone correct me if I’m wrong…)

by impaulv on Nov 8, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We've talked about how several law enforcement agencies

Have a “zero tolerance” policy on domestic violence calls (i.e. someone must be arrested) but no one can confirm if LAPD has this policy.

I hope this is true,

by bruinbabe2000 on Nov 8, 2008 4:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank You, 66

It is never truly as it may have seemed in these situations. That being said, I must admit that I believe in a “zero tolerance” policy for our Bruins. I don’t care what the Trojies consistently get away with—and God knows, they get away with a lot—we are UCLA, we are the Bruins.

I trust CBH completely.

Love My Bruins

by Bruingirl83 on Nov 8, 2008 4:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Years ago I had a civil case like this

These were not kids – both in their 60’s, but having a torrid affair until my client decided to stop it. His soon to be ex-girlfriend went berserk, and started tearing the place up, he ushered her out and she tripped and fell and broke here knee cap. Tough case, and he got prosecuted criminally (in Orange County.) That was a Zero Tolerance jurisdiction, but after about a year’s worth of trial continuances, the DA dropped the charge, apparently the only time that ever happened. It turned out that the evidence backed up my client’s version.

Incidentally, the really cool part about this case is that I was developing facts to prove my theory that this lady murdered her first husband about 20 years before. Alas the case settled before it could be turned into a mini-series.

The point is that sometimes what people swear up and down is the Absolute Truth turns out to be the Absolute Truth Version 1, with Absolute Truth Version 2 being more accurate. Let’s wait on the facts before we pass judgment.

by Fox 71 on Nov 8, 2008 10:13 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bruins Nation, an unofficial daily online scrap book covering the greatest collegiate athletic program in the nation. GO BRUINS.
Start posting about the Bruins »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

4310_802638778316_2519469_46410875_2962006_n_small
The Evolution of a Bruin Fan
Images_small
UPDATE: Rivalry Game Ticket Thread
Morrell_small
Wildcat and the UCLA Running Game
Ucla_small
Everyone needs to calm down about Ben Ball
Trojanssuck_small
An Angel in the Defensive Backfield

Recent FanPosts

Small
Anyone on Twitter?
Small
Huge Weekend - Anyone all in?
Avatar_small
Rematch with UCSB & Nick Rimando wins MLS Cup MVP
Bruinsnation_small
Bruin Bear "Security Force" Offers Weak/Pathetic Response To Their Screwup
Bruinsnation_small
Video link to KTLA's story on the Beat USC Bonfire!
Bruinsnation_small
[UPDATE x3] Hey UCLA Students: Nice Job Protecting The Bruin (& Getting PWNed By Trojans)
Small
Beat $C* Week: Recap From The Bonfire Rally!
Small
Uniforms for Saturday?
Moreyouknow_small
Is this Brian Price's last game at UCLA?
Small
66-19: Only 2 Numbers Our Players Should Be Thinking About This Saturday

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

094_small Ajax

Bruinsnation_small Nestor

Menelaus2_small Menelaus

Arron_afflalo1_small Tydides

Brad_pitt_as_achilles_small Achilles

Small Meriones

Telemachus_small Telemachus

Small Odysseus

Blue_bellerophon_small Bellerophon

Authors

Images_small Ryan Rosenblatt

Official Partner of CBS Sports