USC Law Fools
We all know that USC doesn't mind fudging numbers for their athletes, apparently they feel that their law students need the same...ahem..."help."
I know a lot of people on BN are either in law school or are lawyers. I came across this story on a legal blog and it is so mind boggling that it is laughable. Apparently not content to have their law students be entirely dependent on alumni job handouts, the administration there have decided that it is easier just to increase everyone's GPA by 0.1. I know that might not seem like a lot to non-law people, but it can make a huge difference to elite law firms who have strict GPA cutoffs.
At least the USC Gould School of Law is being relatively honest. According to the administration, USC students do not get grades on par with students at peer institutions. This hurts USC students in the job market. The most simple way to fix this discrepancy is to just give everybody at USC Law an extra boost to their GPA.
You think it can't possibly be that simple? Here is the grade reform proposal that USC faculty and student representatives will be voting on, on December 11th:
Proposed Revision:Under the current grading curve, the average grade in each first-year course is set at 3.2. Under the Dean's proposal, the average grade in each first-year course would be set at 3.3 rather than at 3.2. The effect of this change would be to raise each first-year grade by .1. For example, a student who would have earned a grade of 3.2 in Torts under the current grading curve would instead earn a grade of 3.3. Similarly, a student whose year-end GPA under the current grading curve would be a 3.2 would instead have a year-end GPA of 3.3.
The laughable thing is USC is trying to have their cake and eat it too. They claim that their students are hurt by having "tougher" GPA requirements and that this will make things fairer for their students. The problem with this logic is that law firm hiring committees are already aware of different law schools' standards. Thus, this will only further make a joke of a law degree and GPA of USC.
Boy am I glad to be a Bruin.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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If you want to see the problem of having anonymous comment sections (and a lot of good jokes on USC) read the comment section of the article. Enjoy.
by bruinponcho on Dec 1, 2008 8:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What’s so funny about this is that many law firms have different GPA cutoffs for different schools based on the grading criteria used by each. USC grad students are getting hired because 1) the economy sucks for new lawyers (and old lawyers); and 2) they’re USC law students and many firms realize that USC is only ranked highly because of their inflated endowment and alumni network. Sooo… this is isn’t surprising. The crazy thing is they’re making it retroactive!!! Law schools are obviously free to change their grading criteria for future classes, but retroactively? wow.
by legallybruinette on Dec 1, 2008 8:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This might be a sensitive subject around here
I’ll leave it at that…
by Tydides on Dec 1, 2008 8:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
We have some suc Law grads around here
But still good information to know. I guess this is just the law school adopting the grade inflation policy of the rest of their pathetic institution.
by Tydides on Dec 1, 2008 9:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's an upside for guys like '66
The proposal just after the one quoted above is to give all grads from justsc’s law school a retroactive raise of $100 per month. So for those of you who, like sjh class of ’66, graduated many MANY years ago, that retroactive raise can mean real money.
by Fox 71 on Dec 1, 2008 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Where did you see that Fox?
I must have missed it. Or is this sarcasm?
by bruinponcho on Dec 1, 2008 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No Upside to This Entire Discussion
I’m so old that my class was graded on a 0-100 scale with an average of 72 needed to graduate. My average was just above 80 and it put me around the top 15% of my class and on law review. Back in those days, there were no “courtesy” grades; people actually got grades in the 20’s and 30’s; one grade like that and you were usually gone from school. At that time, the bar exam was the ultimate final exam. When I took it, around 32% of those taking it passed.
I think this entire thread contains a bit of nonsense and shows how arbitrary and useless the grading system is (something I’ve written about in posts here over the last couple of years).
Having been on all sides of the system, as a law student, the director of a legal services office that hired law students, and a law professor that gave grades I can say, without hesitation that most law school grading systems have almost nothing to do with whether a student will be a good lawyer.
What’s most rancid about the system is that it is maintained, in great part, so that the large law firm recruitment committees can avoid interviewing the “unfit” students (those not in the top 10%). Often, the “unfit” would be the best fit.
That the law schools distort the learning and grading processes to cater to these big firms is one of my biggest gripes against them.
I disagree with those who contend that the law firms understand each school’s grading system and accommodate them in their interviewing process. My experience is that they look more at class standing than at the actual GPA.
What they are willing to do is go deeper into the class standing pool at certain schools; they claim that the schools have demonstrated excellence; some times it is simply a matter of elitism.
I’ll not defend my law school — I really don’t feel a need to. Like others here, I value the intense, interdisciplinary education I got from a gifted and dedicated faculty at the USC Law Center. I’ve had a great life in the legal world and out of it and my Law Center education opened most of those doors.
What’s most disturbing about this story is the “homogenization” of all things academic — often brought on by things like US News and World Report’s “rankings”. Arbitrary comparisons based on nothing but reported numbers have made it easy for lazy people to overlook what makes institutions unique.
My niece turned down full scholarship offers to attend law school at USC, UCLA, Duke, and Michigan to go to NYU because, in part, in the arbitrary magazine standings, NYU was ranked highest. She’s had a great education at NYU but she would have done just as well at the others. I’m not faulting her choice, only the impact that the standings had on it.
However, the worst thing that these number scales have done to legal education don’t often show up. Faculties wanting to be high in the arbitrary rankings have changed their admission systems and requirements often to the disadvantage of diversity — diversity is not a ranked criteria. And, that does not mean that they are taking better qualified students over less qualified students — it means that they are taking students to meet a magazine’s criteria, not students who would do well in school and add depth and dimension to the student body.
So, what seems so simple, the adding of .1 to a grade point average is, in reality, a manifestation of a much more complex problem — the role that simple numbers play in shaping an institution and its grading policies.
Rant all you want about sc. That’s fine. But, don’t begin to think that this is the academic scandal of the century. It’s not even close.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Dec 2, 2008 6:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Call, '66
“Having been on all sides of the system, as a law student, the director of a legal services office that hired law students, and a law professor that gave grades I can say, without hesitation that most law school grading systems have almost nothing to do with whether a student will be a good lawyer.”
Enough said.
Love My Bruins
by Bruingirl83 on Dec 2, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
83 -- You were missed on game day Friday night
We needed the comfort of your commentary AND knowing what you were baking.
We do much better when you have something good to say and something good in the oven. Your Kitchen Karma Rocks!
sjh
by Class of 66 on Dec 2, 2008 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, '66
Sorry I didn’t make it. I’m doubling up this Saturday, though.
(Very important baking decisions to make this week. Praline cheesecake with hazelnut crust may be necessary.)
Plus…white chocolate macadamia nut cookies…? Another sweet potato souffle pie? Almond Roca brownies? Hmmm…
Love My Bruins
by Bruingirl83 on Dec 3, 2008 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, girl
You are trouble. Suddenly, this apple doesn’t taste so good.
by Bruinut on Dec 3, 2008 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Your Apple...
…you can core it, fill it up with brown sugar, butter & raisins, and bake it. Make a syrup by flaming some Calvados and serve that over the top…or use caramel sauce…
Love My Bruins
by Bruingirl83 on Dec 4, 2008 11:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mmmmm, Calvados…. (making my best Homer Simpson face)
by bru79 on Dec 5, 2008 10:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
I’m not saying that USC Law is a terrible institution b/c it isn’t (as much as we hate on them, they USC is still an elite university…just not as elite as UCLA). This grading change just reeks of feeling that this is really going to make any difference. Legallybruinette had a good analysis that firms know the GPA structure of law schools and law schools are graded on a curve, so all they are doing is changing the numbers but relationally everything else is the same. Seems like shotty accounting if you ask me.
by bruinponcho on Dec 1, 2008 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It is simply a shifting of numbers
but realistically, they are just bringing their grading policy in line with other law schools of its academic standing; the 3.3 grade average is common among the top-15 or so law schools (excepting Cal and Yale, which uses a UCSC-type scale, and Chicago’s oddball scale).
by bruinhoo on Dec 1, 2008 11:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with bruinhoo
My law school (Hastings) did something similar after realizing how terrible our curve was. Of course, it went into effect the year after I graduated.
Besides, firms know that schools have different grading systems (for example, Hastings uses traditional A, B, C, D, F grading, whereas Boalt uses HH for high honors, H for honors, and P for pass). From what I have heard of my peers who spent law school trying to get a BigLaw job (some of whom have now lost their job with the death of Thelen and Heller), they are more focused on your class rank (i.e. top 25th percentile of the class) rather than your GPA.
A pass is the same as a C, but it sure is a lot easier to explain away to non-law peers and family, isn’t it? Semantics, people.
Oh well. Grades aren’t that important. At least to me they weren’t. Then again, I became a prosecutor, where they care about if you can cut it in front of 12 normal citizens, not if you got an A- in California Civil Procedure.
Obviously, I’m a bit biased. But, U$C still sucks in every way.
by Bellerophon on Dec 2, 2008 6:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair...
UCLAW did the same thing during the year that I applied, only the curve went from a 3.0 to a 3.3 average (iirc). However, there was no talk of retroactivity in the change.
by bruinhoo on Dec 1, 2008 11:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
I’m one of the SC law grads here on BN and I’m soemwhat familiar with this issue. It has been a sore point for a while that USC sets its mean GPA at 3.2, which is lower typically lower than other top law schools. To firms who are not in the know, this will seem to be a lower GPA than other schools that set their mean GPA’s to 3.3 or 3.4.
I don’t think it’s a big deal and there isn’t anything remarkable about it. Although I wish they did this when I was in school.
by UCLAbruin920 on Dec 2, 2008 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
Our head football coach is a graduate of the USC Law Center.
As we have said repeately over the years … if an individual went an undergraduate with great athletic programs and is loyal to the undergrad … doesn’t matter all where he or she attends for grad school.
Ask any Michigan alum attending ND law school which team he roots for when they take on each other … vice versa ask any ND undegrad alum attending Michigan law school where his or her loyalties lie when the teams take on each other.
by Nestor on Dec 2, 2008 6:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2 final thoughts
First, like I said earlier, if USC wants to change their grading system to be more “standardized” then I’m all for that. What gets me is the insinuation that these grade boosts appear to be retroactive which just seems odd (like going back and changing past years’ tax returns). And really, if SUC wanted to be more “standard” they would scrap their crazy 4.0-3.9.3.8-3.7-3.6-3.5-3.4-3.3-etc grading system, which IMHO seems like an administrative nightmare (but ironically probably makes adding .1 easier), and move to the traditional A, A-, B+, B, B-, etc method.
Second, I am probably not the best example of loyalty to my undergrad since my school was D2 and didn’t have a football team and thus, I remained a fan of the school I had cheered for since I was a kid: UCLA. But, I am happy to say that at UCLA Law right now there are many students from all over the country who now go to UCLA football and basketball games. I even have friends from Cal, Arizona, and Stanford who refer to the Bruins as “We.” So maybe we should add a corollary to the thought that one stays loyal to their undergrad. Instead, once someone goes to UCLA, they are a Bruin for life.
Go Bruins!
by bruinponcho on Dec 3, 2008 8:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Let me explain all this to you so it stops 'getting' to you
I graduated from Gould School of Law, like our coach, just this year so I have friends in the current SBA that explained the changes. A few points.
1. This is not ‘retroactive.’ The existing grades of current 3Ls and 2Ls will remain the same. The change will be applied to grades starting with this semester, grades that have not been computed. This is not retroactivity, even if it may appear that way. Grades in law school are curved and therefore arbitrary. All they signify is that person X performed better than person Y. In four weeks current test takers will have their exams reviewed and a professor will say X > Y, the administration will then curve grades using a complex formula and give X a 3.3 and Y a 3.2. That doesn’t mean the grade is an objective measure of their understanding, they could give X a 2.7 and Y a 2.6 for all they care. The point is that in a curve, grades only tell you which students performed better than other students.
2. UCLA Law curves at 3.3, along with other schools that compete at the same level (like U of T Law). Thus, it makes sense that USC Law would change their curve system to reflect that of peer schools. This is especially relevant when you consider that the quality of students at similar schools, like USC and UCLA Law, is almost indistinguishable (look at US News stats, the LSAT and GPA numbers for incoming students at both schools are almost exactly alike). So if the kids are equally smart and you’re curving their grades why should one group get lumped with a median at 3.2 and the other with a 3.3?
3. Biglaw firms generally adjust cut-offs, but these firms employ only about 50% of students at UCLA and USC Law. Even though big firms understand the GPA differences and adjust recruiting, a very large number of USC and UCLA Law students end up working in mid to small law firms that don’t have the time or the money to make such distinctions. These are the firms that have partners willing to see two resumes, one with a 3.3 another with a 3.4 and they’ll simply toss away the 3.3 GPA. They don’t have ‘recruiting coordinators’ and luncheons for current law students, they just want to know who is applying and what do they offer.
4. Abovethelaw, the website where this info was posted, is totally misleading, nasty, and rude. UCLA Law did this very thing just a few years ago when they adjusted their curve from 3.0 to 3.3, along with dozens of other institutions. The new editor of that website is increasingly coming under fire for reporting news in a nasty biased way just get attention. In this case he threw a fine school and its students under the bus in exchange for page views. Because his blog is so popular in the legal wold, it is very likely he hurt the chances of dozens of USC Law kids by making it seem like their grades are inflated, the last thing they needed in this economy. So please, don’t add to it.
5. As noted above, USC Law students =/= USC Students. My Class (2008) had over 20 bruins, and just 10 Trojans, out of a total of 180+ students. The vast majority come from many other fine institutions and lack Trojan arrogance and douchbaggery.
by UCLAwyerr on Dec 3, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the info
Its a shame that “law blogs” don’t do as good of a job as a comment in an athletic blog does.
by bruinponcho on Dec 4, 2008 3:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
they do something like this at MIT
as an undergrad, the grading at MIT is out of 5.0 rather than 4.0. They basically just add a point to whatever your GPA was. The idea is that because of the grade deflation at MIT, they should add a point to your GPA to put it on par with other schools …… I don’t really have a problem with it, but you just have to readjust it back to a 4.0 scale for applications, etc. so it really has no effect
by Dante on Dec 3, 2008 2:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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