UCLA Law

by Dante on Apr 24, 2008 8:11 PM PDT Comment 37 comments

So I have realized from the posts that a lot of BNers are UCLA Law grads. I am a freshman in college this year, studying econ at MIT. I am hoping to go to law school in a few years, and I would really like to go to UCLA.

Do you guys have any tips on the applications process. I know this is early for just a freshman, but anything in particular I should be doing? Also, my college is very rigorous academically (no grade inflation). Will UCLA take this into consideration?

Also, I would greatly appreciate if you care to share some of your experiences at UCLA Law.

Thanks, and ...

GO BRUINS

(I am under word count, so here are some random thoughts on UCLA basketball: I am actually pretty excited that some of the guys may go pro, because that will give more PT to some of my personal favorites .... I have always been a big fan of Roll and Aboya, and to have both of them getting significant minutes, and leading the group of talented freshman will be really fun)

go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins
go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins
go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins
go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins go bruins

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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Getting in

is the hardest part. Mostly make sure you hit the desired LSAT score and keep your GPA up. Otherwise, that's it. Of course, get a few good letters of recommendation to go with it, but it's still pretty numbers heavy. Get the US News Grad school rankings report (where many UCLAers are angry that law dropped down to 16 from 15) and see what the numbers are, and you can also check out www.lawschoolnumbers.com (not sure if it's still active, but try it) to see what schools others got into with their numbers and activities.

By the way... activities don't seem that important. LSAT goes a long way. I think almost all schools factor in where your GPA comes from also, as MIT is a huge difference from Podunk State U.

By the time you're out here for UCLA law, it is going to be EXPENSIVE. The fiance is in his last year, and tuition is ridiculously high for a public school (IMO) because they (the regents) keep raising the "professional" school fees, which the law, medical and business schools fall into. I think his tuition was at least 25k this year, if not more. I just remember the loan package being a crazy and cringe worthy number.

There's also the "backdoor" method - transferring in after your first year, but it's not always guaranteed. That's actually how he got in, but he had to work pretty darn hard at his previous law school to make the grades and the class ranking that UCLA wants (and UCLA takes a very decent amount of transfers.) Also what we think may have helped are the undergrad ties to the campus, and that we were still local, meaning that it was very likely he'd accept the transfer acceptance.

Enjoy your time in college also though. Do the best you can, and if you're meant to be here at UCLA, it will happen.

by freesia39 on Apr 24, 2008 8:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Have to agree

LSAT is incredibly important along with your grades. You do not have to do as well coming from MIT than from a school like Cal State Fullerton, but don't let that get to your head. You are going to need good grades to get in.

As for transferring, that is an option but not one you are going to want to take. It takes 10 times more work to ensure that you will be able to transfer than it does to just get good grades in college in the first place. Plus, transfer students are at a disadvantage during their 2nd year, especially during interview season, and life can be difficult adjusting to a new school that everybody else has already been at for a year.

by Rhapsode on Apr 24, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Podunk State U

What's their US News ranking compared to USC? Or does it not matter since they haven't "won" 1.5 foot ball titles.

by UCLA4Life on Apr 25, 2008 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

lawschoolsnumbers.com is still up and running

thanks for the prelaw memories. I did have to go back and look at my old lsn profile after reading that.

While UCLA Law's tuition is on the high side for a public school, it cannot quite match the 38.5k this year that UVa is charging (33.5k for Virginia natives). At least cost of living here is a fraction of that in West LA.

by bruinhoo on Apr 25, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

UCLA Law School

I think you are well situated for your goal. Admissions officers are smart and they know what a particular GPA means at every school and UCLA Law likes grads of East Coast schools. I don't think you do anything different to impress UCLA than you would any other school--LSAT and grades are what they look for, plus anything else special about you to distinguish yourself from the other qualified applicants. I'm now going to say something heretical--if you get into a school with a higher rating than UCLA, go there. When my son was a UCLA undergrad and decided to go to law school he was naturally interested in UCLA Law School, but I told him to aim higher. He ended up with acceptances from Harvard, NYU, Columbia, Stanford and Cal, and ended up going to Stanford. Don't get me wrong--UCLA is a great law school and I received an outstanding education there. But choosing a law school is a business decision and emotional factors should be minimized.

by UCLAW on Apr 24, 2008 9:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Write, Write, Write

I think the skill most important to success in both law school and the practice of law is the ability to write crisp, clean prose.

Students who have either been English majors or have written in many undergrad courses do well in all aspects of law school be it taking examinations or writing papers. In addition, they thrive in practice.

This won't help you get in, but should help you once you are there.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Apr 24, 2008 9:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I didn't go to UCLA for law school

But I can tell you that you need a very good LSAT to get in. My guess is that an MIT degree will allow you some leeway on the LSAT though.

I'd estimate a solid 3.3+ from MIT with a 165+ would probably get you close. I'd recommend famiarizing yourself with the format of LSAT questions.

by Ajax on Apr 24, 2008 9:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Dante,

I worked in the UCLA Law Admissions office for three years. Without a doubt, LSAT score gets the most consideration, followed by GPA... I think there is even a formula that weighs out the two, with the difficulty level of the university factored in as well. I would say, 172+ 3.7+ and you're instantly in. Anything close will be a likely acceptance as well. Best of luck to you, the competition is pretty intense.

by bruinbunz on Apr 24, 2008 10:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Focus on your grades right now...

...that's what you can control. Really all the extracurriculars are just that. It's a numbers game for most people, even engineers. Don't rely on the fact that you went to MIT as a crutch or that you did engineering. In reality, it matters very little.

GPA and LSAT are what matters most. When it comes time to take the LSAT, take a prep course. Oh, and get to know 2 or 3 professors really well so they can write great recommendations for you. They won't get you in, but a bad recommendation can destroy your chances.

I'm telling you, as someone who studied engineering, that my GPA and LSAT are right about in the median of my law school. I didn't get any bump from any schools for being an engineer major despite the fact that UCLA engineering has a very low GPA average (2.9 was what it was for my year according to my counselor).

by BruinEd03 on Apr 25, 2008 12:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Bit of Advice

Although GPA is important, LSAT is CRUCIAL. Let me restate that for you: LSAT IS CRUCIAL! It is the single most important variable in nearly every law school's admission formula.

I mention this not to boast but for demonstration purposes. I went to UCLA for my undergrad. I graduated with college honors and summa cum laude.

I decided to study the LSAT myself. I basically did an LSAT a day for a month (no small feat) with plenty of store bought LSAT books in preparation. I timed myself and was getting anywhere from 167-176. These are pretty good scores. However, every now and then I would have a poor score. I went into take the test and had bad day.

My GPA and honors did not help me much with law school admissions. I should have taken the test again but I didn't have time (I'm older) and I got into a decent school anyway (but alas, not UCLA).

The moral of this story: Take a LSAT prep-course. I know they are expensive. Borrow the money from a relative or mow lawns for a summer, but do whatever you have to get the money for Blueprint, Kaplan, or whatever. Also, UCLA Law doesn't seem to like its own. At the very least they know exactly how difficult your undergrad major is.

by Bruins100NCAA on Apr 25, 2008 3:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

LSAT

I took it twice. First time on a Saturday after a final on Thursday and two finals on Friday and I got a crummy score. It was a "why don't you try another profession, young man" score. So I took it again and got a huge score. I don't remember the numbers, but it was a score that would have qualified me for just about anywhere.

So I agree with everyone else about the LSAT, and I also suggest that you consider taking it again if you don't do well the first time.

Here's the grain of salt - that all took place in 1971. I think things may have changed just a bit.

by Fox 71 on Apr 25, 2008 4:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Changes in the LSAT

You're right.

Since then, I believe they have corrected the LSAT to account for overemphasis of math and the sciences in education.

by Bruins100NCAA on Apr 25, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LSAT is not everything, though...

I agree with everyone that the LSAT is very important. However, I went through school with the idea in my head that it would save me from having to study. I ended up with a 180 LSAT but only a 3.2 gpa. UCLA wait-listed me and I didn't get in to any top-5 schools. I ended up getting in to UCLA, but ultimately decided to go elsewhere. I chose Duke based, in part, on the USNews rankings and now they've fallen from 7th to 12th from (1998 to 2008). So take all of that with a grain of salt, too.

I will also say that you should make sure to have some fun with your coursework. Your GPA is important and you can pad it with some fun classes. I'm not convinced that anyone would give your transcript any extra weight if you killed yourself with tough classes the whole time.

Last, I agree with Class of 66 that writing is the most important skill you can learn in preparation for law school.

by Moosen on Apr 25, 2008 7:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well,

I agree, grades won't be as important if you can slam a 180 on the LSAT. Nice work young man.

Disclaimer: a 180 is not necessarily something to be expected.

by rfirpo on Apr 25, 2008 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry - not the point I was trying to make.

I was actually trying to say that grades are very important. Mine was more of a cautionary tale, I think, than something to aspire to.

By all means, do everything you can to get a great LSAT score, but don't neglect your classes. Sega hockey and late nights at Stratton's stole many a grade point from my transcript.

by Moosen on Apr 25, 2008 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

HUH?

You got a 180 and were wait-listed by UCLA? Was this recent? Your GPA isn't THAT low.

Not trying to knock you here, 180 is a PERFECT score.

by Bruins100NCAA on Apr 25, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Graduated UCLA in '95.

Yeah, I was surprised that they wait-listed me, too. Looking back, it's probably part of the reason that I went somewhere else.

by Moosen on Apr 25, 2008 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

When do I take the LSAT?

I'm currently a third year at UCLA and I am thinking of doing two years in a program like Teach for America or the Senate/Assembly Fellows Program before applying to law school. When should I take the LSAT, this year, next year, or the year I apply to law school?

by bhbruin on Apr 25, 2008 10:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

LSATs last...

for 5 years after you take them. So, you want to make sure you're ready to take it, which is typically right after you finish school so you're still sharp. You could technically take it multiple times but that's definitely looked down on. It's only offered a few times a year so you have to look ahead and plan from there. I'm just days away (whoo hoo!) from finishing my 1L year at UCLA law and I will be the first one to say how incredibly awesome this year was. It's every bit as hard as you may think it is... and probably a bit more, but honestly, it's so worth it. I've made absolutely great friends and the faculty here is second to none in my honest opinion.

And for all this admissions stuff.. I was wait-listed with a 3.9 GPA and a 163 LSAT. (I had a lot of issues the summer I took the LSAT so I was actually happy I even got that high...). Anyways, I met with the Dean of Admissions (who is extremely cool) and after updating my profile there I was admitted. A lot of admissions has to do with your motivation and your desire. If you want it... you have to go out and get it.

by brunettebruin on Apr 25, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

your score will last a few years

as bruinette posted above me, so you don't have to wait until you are ready to apply before taking the exam.

From personal experience, I took the LSAT the October after graduating from UCLA, using the summer-early fall to prep for the exam (I cannot stress enough, take an LSAT prep class!!!) after having decided to take a year off before starting law school. Depending on the start date of your prospective programs, October may not be an option, and the June sitting is rather close to spring finals + graduation.

Given your circumstances, my suggestion would be taking the LSAT the February of your Senior year. This way, exam prep would not interfere too severely with classwork, your summer is free, and you are done in time to catch the ben ball's next stretch run :)

by bruinhoo on Apr 25, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would not take the LSAT

during school. I tried it for a couple weeks, then quit because (a) I was a senior and wanted to enjoy all of it, and (b) I was missing Saturday basketball games because of stupid classes.

My advice. Take a year off.

By the way, UCLA grads (J.D.'s or just former undergrads) are always hired in the chambers I currently work in as externs - it's quite obviously the key line on the resume (at least until the end of the summer).

by rfirpo on Apr 25, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed re. taking time off

for anyone here that is considering law school, waiting a year or two before law school really is beneficial, imo.

for the person above, if you can fit LSAT classes/study in while participating in TFA/senate fellows, that would be ideal. If not, you need to consider taking a third year off to allow for the LSAT, or to take it during school.

by bruinhoo on Apr 25, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Agree Too

I taught law for close to 30 years.

In those years, many of the students who got the most out of law school had taken a couple of years between graduation from undergraduate school and starting law school.

For some, the time off allowed them to gain perspective. Others matured emotionally and were better able to withstand the physical and emotional. And, all who worked in the real world understood the value of the degree -- not just in terms of earning power but also in terms of gaining entry to a variety of professions.

Many law schools will accept you and allow you to defer entry.

If you want to take time before starting -- do it.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Apr 25, 2008 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oops!

Should say "physical and emotional demands that accompany the rigors of studying law."

sjh

by Class of 66 on Apr 25, 2008 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

partially agree

I came to law school straight from undergrad and have found it beneficial since I am still in the practice of doing homework and taking tests whereas some people who take time off are out of practice. But I would have to agree that taking a year off to build your resume is useful as it gives you something extra to talk about when you interview for jobs for your 1L summer.

by uclaw2010 on Apr 26, 2008 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about this:

YOU'RE ALL CRAZY! STAY AWAY FROM LAW SCHOOL!

Sorry...I think I'm just frustrated since I've been reading Loan Agreements and Security Agreements for the last four days...and I'm not a lawyer. Whoever writes these things should be flogged. It is NOT English! 3-page sentences do not constitute proper grammar! ARRGHH!

by tasser10 on Apr 25, 2008 11:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

hahaha...

that's why lawyers have jobs. We create a market for ourselves by purposely making things incomprehensible unless you've slaved away for 3 years to learn how to read it.

by brunettebruin on Apr 25, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Writing

They even have classes teaching you how to write soulless incomprehensible documents if you don't just like reading them.

by Rhapsode on Apr 25, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a requirement @ Virginia

Though I certainly have not limited such soulless, incomprehensible documents to my Legal Writing classes here.

by bruinhoo on Apr 25, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hence Clinton's famous line...

"It depends what the word "is" is"...

by tasser10 on Apr 25, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

my admission experiences

coming from someone that turned down UCLA Law, for what that's worth.

To start out with, at this state in your collegiate career, do well in your classes. Obvious as it sounds, good grades are a big part of the admissions process, and the only thing that you can accomplish now that will improve your admissions profile. Take classes that interest you; hopefully the grades will follow.

As far as activities, my belief is that at the base level, law schools want to make sure that you did 'something' with your free time in college, other than play Guitar Hero and attend keggers. Participate in activities, find a campus group or two that pique your interest, and participate. Leadership positions don't hurt, but I don't think are essential.

The LSAT is the single most important aspect of admissions. You have a couple of years until you need to start worrying about this, but do keep in mind its importance when you begin preparing for the exam.

I should note that while the LSAT is king at every law school (Berkeley - Boalt Hall being a probable exception), its relative importance does vary do some degree at particular law schools. I have gotten the sense that UCLA Law puts a slightly greater importance on an applicant's GPA than other peer law schools.

by bruinhoo on Apr 25, 2008 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It's obviously much different now

30+ years ago the top score on the LSAT was 800, and anything close to 700 was a "write your own ticket" score.

Also, law schools looked much more heavily on the last two years of school than on the first two. My first two years were followed by a draft notice and three years in the army. So after I grew up and started taking studying seriously, my GPA in my last two years was way more than a point more than after my first two years, and that plus my good LSAT score got me in.

I am shocked by the costs. I went to a private school (USD), but as I recall the pittance I got by way of the GI Bill meant that I didn't have to take out a loan. That and my first paying law job - researching some obsure point of criminal law in every jurisdiction to be used in a petition for writ of certiorari to the USSC. And we did that the hard way - find the case in the dicentennial digest using the key number system, then go read the case. And yes, we had to use our connestoga wagons to get to school, while fighting off bands of marauding "native americans." And I got $2.00 an hour for doing it! I was so pumped I couldn't believe it. And you're right - to do real law work I would have done it for free just for the experience and for the line on my resume.

by Fox 71 on Apr 25, 2008 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All I can Say......

Good luck to you in whatever you choose.

If I ever get in trouble with the law, I have a great resource here at BN. Hope everyone has reasonable rates because if I do need one of you it will be a doozy of a case.

by artybruin on Apr 25, 2008 3:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Not an attorney

but I did watch a lot of John Houseman in "The Paper Chase".

"Make each day your masterpiece" - JRW

by UCLAMD89 on Apr 25, 2008 10:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

There were profs like that

I remember when the no. 2 person in our class (very very very smart) was jousting with the Trusts professor, and ended up sputtering just a bit about a case before she finally told the prof that the court's ruling just "wasn't fair." The prof, with his heavy New England accent, uttered the line which I can still hear to this moment: "Mrs. Judy, that is the language of the guttah."

And I really had profs who said "I really don't care what you think. What do the cases say."

SJH and others made the point about taking a couple of years off before law school. I took my years off between sophomore and junior years at UCLA, but then started the grind as soon as I could. In my case it was all about $$. I was tired of making bupkes as a student (my big earning job in college was $2.00 an hour working as an usher at Pauley). I wanted to get a steady job. As a law clerk I made $500 a month, which moved to $800 after I graduated, and then the magnificent sum of $1,200 a month after I passed the bar and got sworn in. When you're looking at that kind of financial reward, you really can't afford not to get moving with the legal career.

by Fox 71 on Apr 26, 2008 4:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Go to Medical School

Of course, still aim for UCLA. We have too many lawyers in this country!

by shaq on Apr 26, 2008 11:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

UCLA Law With Discipline

I'm hoping to go to UCLA Law one day, but was disciplined by my college for drinking. I know I have to report this on the application, but does anyone know if this will seriously affect my chance of admission? Obviously I would need a higher GPA and LSAT to bolster my chances, but is it almost a one strike you're out policy?

by OverflowingPassionBucket on Apr 28, 2008 5:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs