Untitled Luc Richard Mbah a Moute Riff
by Achilles on Jun 2, 2008 12:18 PM PDT
in Basketball
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PrintLet's start with this from the Chicago Sun-Times:
UCLA forward Luc Richard Mbah a Moute and North Carolina guard Danny Green are among the players the Bulls are keeping tabs on for the ninth pick of the second round. Both are expected to work out for the team at the Berto Center.
One scout considers the 6-8, 229-pound Mbah a Moute the prospect with the quickest lateral movement at the draft camp, and he showed why when he defended 6-2 Jeremy Pargo of Gonzaga and 6-6 Richard Roby of Colorado on Tuesday night.
''I take pride in playing defense,'' said Mbah a Moute, a royal prince in his native Cameroon. ''Going to the NBA as a rookie, that's what I'm going to have to do anyway. I pride myself in guarding any position, from one to four. Sometimes in college, I guard one to five. Being that versatile ... has helped my team get to three Final Fours.''
With that as a jumping off point, indulge me in my own little riff on Luc:
At his best, Mbah a Moute is an unconventional player. As the scout above notes,he has incredible lateral quickness. His arms are very long and he is quick off his feet. The result is a player who can defend basically four different positions with a natural knack for rebounding.
He's been compared -- poorly, IMO -- to Bruce Bowen and Dennis Rodman. This is only because these two players carved a niche for themselves in the NBA without being real scoring threats, the rebounded and defended their way into relevance. If that's the extent of the comparison, then I can see how Luc fits in with that group, but really, the Prince is nothing like Bowen or Rodman who are nothing like each other.
As a freshman, that's the Luc we saw. In retrospect, it occurs to me that he didn't know any better. He was still relatively new to the game, at least he wasn't a kid who grew up playing every day at the park. He came from Cameroon and compared to other elite prospects hadn't developed his game as completely.
What UCLA got was a revelation.
Luc rebounded and defended, sometimes it seemed he was operating mostly on instinct. You only have to watch the final sequences of the Gonzaga game to see Luc at his best.
So, what happened after that, how did Mbah a Moute change and how did that impact the perception of his game.
I think Luc found himself in a quandary.
On one hand, he had "people" telling him he needed to become a true small forward, because that's what he'd be in the NBA. "Work on your handle and your jump shot," he was supposedly advised. On the other hand, the more he tried to become what he wasn't -- at least not yet -- the less he focused on the things that made him great in the first place.
A series of events outside his control played into the situation, too. His sophomore year was marred by injuries, his quickness and leaping ability were curtailed by tendinitis. Arron Afflalo left for the NBA before LRMAM's junior year, prompting Ben Howland to at least experiment with Josh Shipp in the backcourt and Luc at small forward (which only stoked the Luc-is-a-three fire).
What we ended up with was Luc-lite. I lack the recall to cite specific games, but my general feeling about Luc's junior year was that we would see him trying to show off his offensive prowess early on, many times in games UCLA fell behind. Try to remember how many close games and comebacks we had last year. When UCLA was mounting comebacks, we'd suddenly see the Luc of old, he'd grab rebounds and buckle down on defense. I don't really think this was by design. Had UCLA won its games going away, Offensive Luc would have lasted longer every night. But the need to win, the desperation of having to come back or fight in close games, brought out Instinctive Luc -- the kid we saw as a freshman.
So, when Nestor says he wants the Luc of old or no Luc at all, I know what he means. Luc is simply a better player when he does what he does best and doesn't try to be more than he is. Ironically, he seems to be saying exactly that in the quote above.
No one in their right mind doesn't want Instinctive Luc back as a Bruin. That guy is a great player. But getting back the Luc who spends too much time trying to show the scouts he can score is simply less desirable.
The bottom line is: Luc Richard is capable of being a very special player. He has shown us that many, many times. All we want is for him to realize that he's special just the way he is, and that he doesn't have to be someone else to be happy.
Where's Mr. Rogers when you need him.
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Luc's Offensive Game
Your analysis assumes that Luc was alone in wanting to get more offensive production. I strongly suspect that CB asked for Luc to work on his outside shooting, so he could hurt double teaming opponents and expected Luc to develop a consistent outside game. I have no doubt that he motivate Luc to work on his outside game by telling him he’d have to hit the mid range jumper to be drafted. I think everyone was dissappointed that he did not develop into a good jump shooter, and the team suffered because he coudn’t do it. There’s no reason he could not have done it all, if he’d developed a good outside shot. I think we are motivated to downplay his chances as a pro, because the team really need him, even more than Collison.
Here's where you lose me --
“But getting back the Luc who spends too much time trying to show the scouts he can score is simply less desirable.”
This statement, and others like it in posts during the last few weeks, lack any foundation in fact that when Luc was shooting he was shooting to impress the scouts. Saying that, impugns the integrity of a Bruin warrior. It makes it seem that Luc is not out for the greater good for the team but, rather, is out for his own good. Stated another way, it makes it seem that Luc is selfish. There is no support for that and it is unfair to call him out with absolutely no basis to do so.
I agree with 75, above.
And, with others who have carefully pointed out that with the double teams on Love, Luc was left open to shoot the midrange shot. I’m sure he would never have shot it if CBH had told him not to.
So, what we have, this summer, is Luc trying to develop a the shot - a shot people on this board had openly wished he could make - and he gets criticized.
There was no basis to criticize Luc as selfish a couple of weeks ago, and there is none, today.
The last round of criticism was based on statements from other people not Luc. What could be more self serving than the statements from the guy who is training him—claiming that he has got Luc shooting the shot consistently? That wasn’t Luc speaking, it was the trainer. And, then we get Doh!’s analysis.
This whole idea that he has changed this summer is BS. The only thing that has changed is that he seems more serious about going to the NBA than many thought he would be.
So, I find it a bit off base to pontificate about which Luc we want back as thought there are two of them, or stating, as was done a few weeks ago, that if Luc is going to shoot that shot, we’d rather not have him back.
All of this is not only disrespectful of Luc but also CBH. Luc will play the way CBH asks him to play. He always has and always will. If he doesn’t he won’t play.
I’m prepared to leave it in CBH’s hands. I want Luc back—the real Luc, the only Luc we know.
I must say I’m a bit stunned by the negativity surrounding Luc. He is one of my all-time Bruin favorites.
I wonder, Is this anti-Luc stuff is based in some sense that he is rejecting us by taking the NBA more seriously than we thought he would? Sort of “Leave me—ha, I’ve already said I don’t want you anyway.”
sjh
by Class of 66 on Jun 2, 2008 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
affirmed
I’ve never seen a guy being penalized for working on the weaknesses in his game the way Luc has been this offseason.
I agree with every word written by sjh above. C’mon kids- listen to your elders on this one.
by insomniacslounge on Jun 2, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
With all due respect 66
You are assuming that we are offering our thoughts simply based on Dohn’s reports. That is a huge mistake on your part. A big one. I will leave it at that.
I didn't see any reference anywhere to Doh!
but that’s not the point. If a guy is a 65% free throw shooter, we all want him to work his behind off to turn himself into a 75% shooter. He’s not criticized for that. There’s no inference that he’s working on that aspect of his game to impress anyone, but rather to help the team. We all saw an apparent weakness in Luc’s game, and if he works to improve that part of his game then more power to him. Whether he comes back or not. If he comes back, I’m sure that Coach Howland will do his best to put Luc in a position to succeed. If that means encouraging him to shoot an improved jump shot, or telling him the jumper is a shot of last resort, I’m confident leaving that decision to the coach. But I echo Steve’s sentiment – I don’t see any basis to criticize Luc’s efforts to improve his game, or to improve his position in the draft if that’s the way it goes.
And, with all dues respect back at you --
I’m simply asking what we ask all people around here to do—to support their statements with the best evidence possible.
I didn’t say all you relied upon was Doh!. I also pointed our that the critics were attributing statements to Luc that were actually made by the guy who is training him—self serving statements that he had shaped Luc up.
If I’ve made a “huge mistake” and missed direct quotes by Luc that are the basis of this negativity, please show me the errors of my way.
I know you do far more research on this stuff. If there are quotes from Luc, please enlighten me with them.
sjh
agree 66!!!!!
LLLLLLLLLLuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Luc has been my favorite Bruin
the whole time he’s been here, from his freshman pac-10 player of the year, to his steal against Gonzaga to last year as a senior leader. I hope he stays but if not, I hope they take him as that 9th pick in the second round. If he comes back, I think he’s getting his ring. Howland will see to it.
If Luc comes back
with Darren, Roll, Josh and Keefe there, it is the perfect situation to get the fab 5 guys into stride while having some guys who know what they’re doing in beginning of season in our quest for #12.
I think the gist of the "negative" comments about Luc is the following...
That we all liked what we saw from him as a freshman. We all thought it would continue to build on what he did well as his career progressed. Instead, we saw him attempt to get into areas that were not his strength – specifically trying to be a “go to” outside scorer on a team that seemed to lack consistent outside shooting. As a result, he seemed to get away from the other things he did so well. Defense, offensive rebounding, and general court worthiness.
There is a reasonable assumption that the very things we love about Luc hurt his draft position. As was said in that famous commercial, “chicks did the long ball.” And scouts dig the long shot. It’s the MTV world we live in. Sure, it’s great to have Magic, Kareem and Worthy, but you don’t win championships without Cooper and Rambis or A.C. Green.
My feeling is that Luc is trying to reinvent himself into something he isn’t. He certainly needs to develop a reliable mid-range jumper, but he’s going to make a career for himself by being an important role player.
The concern is that he will attempt this reinvention as a Bruin next year, instead of honing his greater skills which will help the team more. None of this is a bad reflection on Luc who is obviously a great kid, with great character. But if all he wants to do is position himself up like a three-point specialist and gun away, then he’s not going to have much value for himself or the team.
One UCLA Basketball fan's
opinion is basically this:
Offseason stories about Luc spending lots of time in the weight room bulking up and improving his strength, working on his agility and conditioning = GOOD
Offseason stories about Luc spending lots of time working on a jumpshot in front of NBA scouts = NOT SO GOOD
That’s just my opinion.
My lasting memory of Luc ...
In the second Oregon game, with time winding down and us trying to claw our way back from a double-digit deficit, DaJuan Porter was continually burning us with his penetration and kick-outs. In a far from intuitive (i.e. brilliant) move, Coach Howland assigned Luc to guard Porter. So, there was Luc out on an island, one-on-one with the jitterbug Porter at the three point line. But try as he might, Porter couldn’t get around Luc and, at 5’6”, couldn’t shoot over him either. Shortly thereafter, the Ducks’ fortunes changed and our comeback was complete.
Luc will probably be an under-appreciated asset for whichever team he plays for next year, but I would pick him for my team any time, improved mid-range jumper or no.
agreed
I agree. I see both sides of the argument. He’s a defensive player and should develop those skills. At the same time, I don’t think we can fault him for trying to develop a jumper. In the end though, I want him on my team because I’ve seen how we’ve struggled without him in the mix. We would’ve strugged even more this past season if Keefe didn’t step up for a giant game that one time. But nobody is reliable enough to replace luc as the glue.
Who knows, maybe I’m just saying this because I’ve grown attached to all the “senior” ben ball warriors.
Exactly.
Love this kid, UCLA is a much better team with him, period. Absolutely, he has been under-appreciated, as snorkeldorf says, partly because-in a way-what he does is almost subtle. I want him to stay. However, he’s working hard to become a more multi-dimensional for his future in the NBA. Good for him…
Gee, an athelete working extremely hard to get even better at his sport, instead of just sitting back on his existing skills and “marketing” himself. Sounds like a Bruin to me.
Love My Bruins
Luc at UCLA
The bottom line in all this is that as a freshman, Luc wowed and amazed us all with his unexpected skills around the basket. Something happened after that, and I, for one, have not seen that skill displayed. However, he has been good and a good contributor to the team. But the NBA skills, IMO, are the ones he showed as a freshman.
Bill
BillSouthBay
this past season
Not as a freshman not as a sophomore but this past year as a junior, Nestor et al on this site maintained over and over and over (and rightly so) that Luc (yes the same Luc that so many above criticize) was THE defensive glue that held the team together. Against Michigan State, he took the winning three (we lost that game without that shot.) There is no doubt from comments CBH made that he was encouraging Luc’s outside shot and development of same. So, if anyone really wants to criticize Luc for “reinventing himself” perhaps they extend that criticism to CBH as well? Luc played injured much of his sophomore year. He played injured much of his junior year. Despite that, it is doubtful that we made the final four either time without him. I say it again, “LLLLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCC!!!!!!!!!!”
You are right
Luc has been a defensive glue and I specifically reiterated that in my last lengthy post. However, the numbers also point to the fact that his offensive production has gone down every year since his freshmen year. It is a concern and we will point that point.
CBH had encouraged Luc to take outside shots before last season when UCLA didn’t have a lot of option at 3. That is about to change. And my hunch is CBH will want to play Luc exclusively at 4 this season and focus on his defense and rebounding (attributes that will get him to the next level) and not get too caught up in being a midrange jump shooter.
But what you and others are completing missing and lashing out like message boad posters is that we are offering fairly nuanced criticism of LRMAM who will still appreciate and love as a Ben Ball warrior.
So don’t come here and lecture on how we should or should not show our appreciation for one of our all time favorite UCLA basketball players. Just because Luc is a favorite doesn’t prevent us from offering frank takes.
Calling Bull Shit on the Talk of Luc the Long Range Gunner
I hate to interject facts into a discussion filled with “concerns” and “assumptions”, but I just visited the stat page for last year’s BB season.
They don’t support the allegations that Luc was a long shot gunner.
Here’s what I did:
I took the total number of minutes a player played and divided it by the number of 3 point shots he took.
Of the players who played a lot, Luc took far fewer 3 point shots per minute. Luc took 1, 3 point shot every 38 minutes—about 1 a game.
The biggest gunners? Matt Lee and Michael Roll. Each took a 3 point shot every 4 minutes.
Here’s the BreakDown expressed in how often a player shot a 3 (the higher the number the fewer 3’s shot):
LMM - 38 minutes
RW - 17 minutes
KL - 14 minutes
DC - 11 minutes
CS - 7 minutes
JS - 6 minutes
ND - 5 minutes
MR - 4 minutes
ML — 4 minutes
As to the total number of 3’s, JS took 216. Luc took 25.
I can do a similar analysis of the 2 point shots, but there is not distinction between the mid-range jumpers and the inside baskets in the stats. Of the starting 5, his shooting percentage is higher than JS and RW and 3% behind DC. Only KL is way ahead.
My bottom line? Luc is getting a very bad rap. First, we’re being told that his game is not team oriented and that he’s focused on scouts—with absolutely no support or direct evidence that his state of mind is being correctly stated. Said another way, I challenge all of you mind readers who know what’s in his head. I trust the Luc we’ve gotten to know for 3 years and I trust his coach.
And, then we are told that people don’t want him to come back an be the gunner he was last year—when the facts make clear he wasn’t.
I really don’t get all this negativity about a player who has given more of himself to the Bruin Nation than most, a player who has played hurt, with tenacity and courage—and a student/athlete who really is a student athlete.
sjh
66
What I have written about Luc (and what Achilles wrote above) is based on numbers from last three years and observations and information that are both public and private. BN has grown a lot in last three years. We now get lot of information from sources who we cannot reveal in this forum.
I appreciate the discomfort you and others might have with some of our recent thoughts on LRMAM. But we are going to stick with those observations and don’t feel obligated to provide you with every single source based on which we are offering our takes.
We think we have earned credibility based on the track record of our commentary over the years to weigh on issues wrt to UCLA athletics that may not please everyone. We have taken lot of heat for certain takes in the past. We are open to change our mind based on new information that becomes available to us. However for now we are going to stick with the recent thoughts we have posted on Luc.
Also please note … we love Luc and love what he has meant to our program. All we are saying if he is going to come back he will need to play within the framework of Howland offense as a power forward not at 3 as an aspiring NBA “shooting” forward. Period.
Thanks.
Sources that cannot be revealed?
Under what circumstances, for example, might a poster deem it necessary not to reveal a source?
I'm with 66 here
I was with him from the beginning and have yet to be persuaded otherwise. In fact, his arguments versus those made by N, Achilles and others have only made me more in agreement with 66. He has made reasonable arguments and backed it up well. I don’t think that the counter arguments are unreasonable, but they’ve been far from persuasive.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Jun 2, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
A couple things
First off, I appreciate the analysis. My only quibble is that I’m just as uncomfortable seeing Luc put up 18 footers as I am 19’9” footers. (And, let’s remember that the 3-point line, I believe, is moving back a foot for 2008).
Second, and more broadly, I don’t read N and A as saying the Luc’s game “is not team oriented” or that he will be “the gunner he was last year.” I think most everyone will agree that Luc is a tremendous player, who is in many ways the consummate team player in terms of his contributions, particularly on defense. The only point I’m seeing, and maybe I’m missing it, is that there is some concern that Luc might be getting advice to improve his long range shooting, and that to the extent that he favors that as opposed to the style of play he demonstrated earlier in his career, that this would not be as desirable as focusing on what he does best.
Maybe all this is a misunderstanding. So, let me suggest that we do our best to try to be fair about how we characterize one another’s points here. Noone is saying Luc is a bad guy. Noone is saying Luc shouldn’t work on his game, etc.
Politely said,
This is all irrelevant.
Because, Luc is going to make up his mind whether to enter the draft. In which case, our concerns don’t matter.
But, if he decides to return to UCLA , he returns to Coach Ben Howland’s team.
Then, Coach Howland will play Luc if Luc is doing the things that Coach Howland wants him to do. And I guarantee that Coach Howland will sit Luc if Luc is doing things that Coach Howland does not want him to do. I trust that CBH will do what is best for UCLA basketball. And if a player, any player, is stepping outside his role (as CBH defines it) in an effort to audition for the next level, he’ll be on the bench.
So, I think the final answer is that we should all want Luc back, and then trust CBH to play him or not.
greg in denver
My own take. (Grain of salt not included)
From what I have observed, Luc in his first season didn’t have many set plays to score. His scoring was mostly from garbage points, put backs, and wide open looks at point blank range. As he has progressed the last 2 years there have been more opportunities for him to shoot from midrange. This comes from multiple factors. And while I feel it is better for him to play the college 4, I also thinks it is unfair to criticize his stats when Luc is playing the way he has been coached to.
The most important thing to me has been that he doesn’t take many contested shots, and when he has, it has been out of sheer neccesity. So many of those missed jumpers were because the other team had given them to him. And for what it is worth, guys are supposed to take those open looks.
So, I want Luc back, and if he has progressed in developing his jumper, then great. If he improves that weak spot in his game, then the team benefits. Most important is that I trust Luc and Coach Howland not to sacrifice the team for personal reasons. This is where I think most people take issue with this riff, and Nestor’s comment from earlier. I trust our coach and players, and those comments upset many of us because whether intentional or not, they suggest we shouldn’t trust Luc or CBH.
And let's all remember that this is a family spat
and not something to go ballistic about. We’re all in this together, and we all want the same thing, which is for our guys to play as well as they can. (I wish I could remember Coach’s definition of success, but you all know what I’m talking about.)
In my opinion, we should move on. How about re-setting bu$hgate, OJ2gate, White Nation gate, or some of those things where we can all rant at length and it’s all good.
Infighting sucks
And I think a lot of it has to do with people misunderstanding each other, and then it takes on a life of its own.
I’m willing to bet there’s a lot of that in this thread. At least it’s (for the most part) a spirited discussion.
spirited discussion! - I've come to the right place
As stated in the original article, Luc performed admirably his freshman year…seemingly based “mostly on instinct”. Given that, I would be upset if he did NOT work harder on the weaker parts of his game. You know, things like dribbling, shooting, etc.
As we all know, if Luc could hit an open jumper, UCLA would have had a better chance of beating Memphis in the Final Four when they decided to double Love. So, yes, he definitely needs to work on that aspect his game…not only to be a better pro but to be a better threat on the offensive end for UCLA.
I love Luc & will always treasure his contributions to the Howland renaissance. But should he choose to stay in the draft, I feel that Keefe will get the minutes that will enable him to step up & contribute more on BOTH ends of the floor vs the idealized freshman Luc.
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