Berkeley Musings
by Nestor on Jul 1, 2008 6:20 PM PDT
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PrintJason over at What’s Bruin, Dawg recently picked up on some interesting discussion on California Golden Blog concerning (some?) Cal fans’ amusing hatred for all things UCLA:
This burning hatred is kinda' funny, for a number of reasons. I especially like any response that professes hatred for a school with "Well, I visited that school in 2005, and let me tell you, the fans in the stands were so rude, I just couldn't take it." These stories are hilarious for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that if I applied this logic to every visit I have ever taken to every stadium in the country, I probably would hate everyone.
To be perfectly honest, even in their supposed 'greatest hour', I rarely think about Cal football. I'm not sure why this is. Should I be thinking about Cal football? I don't innately hate San Francisco, either. A hatred for the Southland is apparently some ritual requirement of our friends to the north. In the comments section of said posting, someone mentioned they hated everything from Los Angeles - the Lakers, Hollywood, possibly even the carpool lane.
This person was from Buffalo. Seriously, if you're from Buffalo, you don't have any right to be doggin' on another city. It's like being from Detroit and complaining about Milwaukee. Just stop.
At any rate, my overall point is that I can use any number of real-life examples to either show that Cal fans are amazingly nice or total morons. It's a two-way street, folks.
Nice Cal Fans: 2005 Rose Bowl; A really inebriated UCLA fan (small Asian girl, must have been no older then 16 or 17) is stumbling up to her seat by us in Section 2. She proceeds to fall down on one knee, and I kid you not, just totally upchuck right there all over a very nice Cal husband and wife who must have been in their 50s. The husband laughs, the wife laughs, and they just kinda' signal the usher, point, and go "That's a football game for you." They were easily the two nicest people I've ever met in a stadium in my entire life. They didn't yell, didn't scream, nothing. Just smiled and moved on.
Idiot Cal Fan: USC v. UCLA @ LA Colisuem, 2007; First, there's a Cal fan at the UCLA/USC game. Which was odd enough. He was sitting one row behind us way in the corner (you know, near the peristyle section that USC doles out as a pittance to the visiting fans). Anyways, we're sitting throughout the entire game, listening to the Cal fan talk about how awesome his team is (keep in mind, by this point, Cal was 6-5 and had lost to UCLA earlier in the year). Several people told him to shutup. I had struck up a conversation with the gentleman next to me about the coaching staff - we both were none too pleased, as in typical UCLA fashion, we had begun to waste our timeouts with about 11 minutes to go. In the first quarter. Christian Taylor's parents and family are sitting about three or four seats to the left of us, and down one row. Following yet another timeout, there's an audible groan, and the Cal fan stands up, and screams, "Fire the black coach!"
At this point, the gentleman next to me turns around, glares at the Cal fan, and tells him to shut the hell up. It's now the moron Cal fan realizes that the guy in front of him WAS black, and so were his two children (probably around 12 or 13). The Cal fan proceeds to go "Man, I didn't mean that, I didn't mean that..." and the whole time, the guy next to me is telling him to just shut the hell up.The Cal fan ultimately has to leave to prevent pretty much everyone in the section from kicking his ass. It wasn't a kid being drunk, it wasn't someone being loud and obnoxious, it was just a total idiot. He had no excuse. And seriously, I hope someone did light him up later that night. He had this heinous mop of red hair and must have weighed around 125 lbs - I think my grandmother could have taken him.
Don’t forget the incident from November of 2006 when few hooligans in the Cal student section beat up another Cal student just because he had UCLA color shirt on. Ranelar posted the violent atmosphere in the Cal student section following the UCLA-Cal here on BN.
BUT as Jason rightly pointed out in the conclusion of his post on WBD that it would be ridiculous to make generalizations on an entire fanbase (except for Trojans fans since we have grown up and lived around them most of our lives and have enough data points their attitude towards their scandal plagued major revenue programs) base on this anecdotes. But it is still amusing to me to see Cal fans get so bent up over UCLA football.
I don’t have any bad feelings towards them whatsoever. In fact I have nothing but great respect for Jeff Tedford. I believe he is a great coach for the Bears and I hope they can hang on to him. I also think Montgomery was a good get for the Bears. He will hopefully upgrade their basketball progam, which indirectly will benefit our conference and bring even more national attention to our own basketball program.
I am sure there are few UCLA alums/students/fans who don’t care much for Cal. From my pov they have never really been on my radar. My first UCLA-Cal game was a heartbreaking last second loss. IIRC it was a Bear team QBed by Mike Pawlawski who beat Tommy Maddox led Bruins by a game winning FG by Doug Brien. I can remember coming out of the Rose Bowl and getting in our car only to find out the Dodgers had choked away the pennant against Will Clark’s Giants (October 91). It wasn’t a fun Saturday. But I remember being stunned by seeing the Cal students get worked up over beating UCLA, and wearing “special t shirts” which I thought were reserved for rivalry games such UCLA-Southern Cal or Cal-Stanford.
I never got into So Cal – No Cal rivalry considering all my room-mates during college were from the Bay Area. Yes, we gave each other hard time over Lakers-Warriors or Dodgers-Giants but it was nothing like the venom I had seen in the Cal-UCLA games from Cal section (in my days) or some what we see via youtube now.
As far the guys at California Golden Blogs are concerned they are good bloggers and we have noted their intellectual honesty before. They have few crazy commenters. The ones that are complaining about being banned from BN are the usual trolls who have gotten kicked out of here for being disruptive, disrespectful, and trying to engage in flame wars, similar to the offline examples presented by Jason and ranelar above. We will never tolerate that and frankly don’t have the time to deal with that. But if Cal fans want to engage in discussion on BN they should take their cue from someone like raganork on how to engage respectfully as a guest in another community.
Anyway, I never thought much about Cal athletics over the years and most likely will not start now. As I have said before I have wished those CGFB guys up north publicly and via email that I hope they get their basketball program back on track and can hold on to Jeff Tedford. A strong Cal program will mean UCLA-Cal game in the national spotlight just like another high profile SEC or Big-10 match ups we see on ESPN. That bodes well for the conference and college football in the West Coast.
We will get back to the Bears during game week this coming season.
GO BRUINS.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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I don't get the hate
I’ve always had a lot of respect for Cal. It’s a fellow UC school. It’s an outstanding academic institution, often ranked as the best public school in the country (with us right behind). Cal brings a lot of respect to the UC system as a whole. A lot of excellent science comes out of Cal and it’s affiliated laboratories. I prefer the stereotypical liberal hippie to the stereotypical spoiled trust fund brat when considering their relative contribution and place in society. UCLA games aside, I almost always root for Cal. Cal is almost everything that $cjc is not, so I not only identify with Cal, I appreciate it, as well. It would seem to make sense that Cal fans would have a similar impression of us, but I guess not everyone up there gets that. Maybe it’s because we always smoke them in sports. Oh well.
greg in denver
I hate Cal...
...but only because I’m the only Bruin in a family of all Golden Bears. So I get a lot of the “baby bear” bullshit. It’s kind of nice to remind Cal fans that we have 103 national titles to their umm, what is it, oh yeah, 26 titles.
They’ve been around for 46 years longer (1868 as opposed to our 1914), and yet we have nearly four times as many titles.
That and my law school class was basically all either Bears or Bruins (Bruins outnumbered trOJans 4 to 1 . . . which should tell you about the real relative academic strengths of each school despite U$C’s cooking the numbers), so there’s a healthy rivalry (as in we all wear our UCLA gear whenever we give Cal a thumpin’ and drown out their own fans in Haas to chants of N-I-T as they once again head toward mediocrity.
I in no way want to denigrate UCLA’s athletic achievements (seriously, 103 titles is amazing), but I do want to point out a couple things about Cal’s numbers.
First of all, were any national titles handed out at all between 1868 and 1913? With limited sports and cross-country travel, I can’t imagine that very many were. For that matter, the NCAA wasn’t even formed until 1906, so I’m pretty sure 0 titles were awarded before that. So I don’t think Cal’s 46-year head start was much of an advantage.
Also, Cal is up to 27 titles (got Men’s Water Polo again this year). Not close to 103 by any means, but we’re working on it. ;)
Finally, Cal’s total suffers because its two most successful sports, Rugby and Men’s Crew, are not governed by the NCAA. Those 2 sports would add nearly 40 championships to the total. Football would add 5 more (though those were all won prior to WWII).
Again, no disrespect to the Bruins. We can’t claim your level of success, but we’re workin’ on it.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
I stand somewhat corrected...
...but even looking only from 1914 forward (thus discounting the 46 head-start, which I grant may be a negligible advantage), one would think being an established institution at a time before the Bruins even had buildings in Westwood would have given Cal a significant advantage in the first 50 years (as I’m sure it did academically, initially).
And tisk tisk ragnarok, no counting sports not included by the NCAA. That’s trOJan logic. ;)
But if we do run those numbers, I’ll round up for you and give you the even 40. When you do that for UCLA, we jump from 103 to 121. Add one for football (1954), five for men’s volleyball (1953, 1954, 1956, 1965, 1967), two for men’s crew (1972, 1973), four for women’s water polo (1996, 1997, 1998, 2000), one for women’s badminton (1977), one for women’s basketball (1978), one for softball (1978), one for women’s tennis (1981), two for women’s track & field (1975, 1977), and three for women’s volleyball (1971, 1975, 1974). The funny thing is all of these (except men’s crew, badminton, and football) are all now NCAA sports.
Anyway, 121 to 40 is a ratio I’ll take home every Thanksgiving to the Cal family. :)
by norcald503 on Jul 2, 2008 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also, I should note...
...the page I linked to hasn’t been updated with our most recent three championships from this past spring (women’s tennis, women’s water polo, and men’s golf).
And, one wonders how many more titles UCLA would have had it not had to disband its men’s gymnastics and swimming and diving programs (which were NCAA championship caliber).
you misunderstand me, sir
i meant nearly 40 additional banners for men’s crew and rugby. 15 for crew, 24 for rugby, 5 for football brings the total to 71. still far short, but hey, it’s at least more than half…
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
Ahh, I see...
...71 would be a pretty respectable number.
I took a glance at the thread you guys had about hating us. Why the hate? Why can’t we all get along?
I mean, why can’t we, fellow UC schools, including our Aggie brethren in Davis, come together and unite behind what we have in common:
Beating Stanfurd at football.
Why the hate? Why can’t we all get along?
Now, that wouldn’t be very fun, would it? No hate, no rivalries, no revenge games, no mocking of the dumb things the opposing coach says? Bor-ing!
Seriously, though, the thread in question was not about how much Cal fans hate UCLA. It was actually about the interestingly broad range of emotions that UCLA inspires in Cal fans, to the extent that it does inspire emotion. The poll attached to that post even had more people clicking on ‘I root for them as a secondary team’ than clicked on ‘I hate UCLA’, though both answers only garnered a paltry 18% of the vote.
Do Cal fans hate UCLA? Turns out, that question is about as meaningful as ‘Do Americans hate Indian food?’ Some do, some don’t, and the range and percentage of answers you might get are so broad as to render any simple answer one might attempt to give as pretty meaningless.
Yet hate does exist. Why? Because we’re conference rivals who occupy opposite ends of the same state. That’s how sports fans and fanbases work. Memories are long and pretexts are thin. To expect large groups of rival fanbases to be completely amicable with each other would be extremely naïve, and protestations of ‘What did we ever do to them?’ can be answered simply ‘Your football team played ours in a series of contests, and our team lost a good number of those games’. Yes, some reasons given by various fans may involve a theft of a song or a series of tough losses or a couple of obnoxious rivals fans, but that’s what happens when you mix large groups of passionate people, football, and plenty of alcohol.
I have a feeling, though, that most of UCLA’s fans are going to go back to ignoring Cal fans soon enough, hatred or not. Which is as it should be.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
Oh, I know...
...I was just saying it tongue-in-cheek. And I wanted to mention that UC Davis beat Stanfurd. Because I find that pretty amusing. Stanfurd: only team to ever lose to every UC football team at home in one season.
And don’t worry, you don’t have to tell me about how rivalries work. I’ve been supporting Manchester United, and thus, hating Liverpool to the death, since King Eric was kicking Crystal Palace fans in the face (although my favorite revenge moment was Roy Keane’s intentional destruction of Alf-Inge Haaland’s knee). Haha.
Truth be told, our rivalries in this country are rather meek compared to some of our brethren overseas.
Rivalries overseas
are also filled with religious (Celtic vs. Rangers) or political (Red Star Belgrade vs. anyone) overtones so that has a lot to do with some of the bigger rivalries. Reading about some of those rivalries is fascinating because so much of what has happened really is unbelievable.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Jul 7, 2008 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Some of them are at least
I just ad what I wrote and some may think I mean all rivalries overseas are that way when in fact it’s only a minority. That minority also accounts for a bulk of the biggest ones though.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Jul 7, 2008 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
might have gotten carried away
i was nominally responding to your comment, but in doing so, i might have tried to respond to the rest of this thread, as well.
and i do love that UC David over Stanfurd thing. Davis has always been a rather secondary team for me because my brother went there. my favorite fact: that school year (‘05-’06), UC Davis managed to defeat the ‘Furd in football, basketball, AND baseball. i can’t recall the last time Cal managed that.
So, basically, you gotta Go Bears!
Don't care much for Cal
2006 @Cal: Forget which Bosworth twin gets lit up on punt coverage where Desean ran it back for a TD. Kid is laying on the field with a concussion due to being blindsided. Cal student section continues to celebrate (sorta understand this) but it was waaaay beyond the play was over and with Bosworth lying on the field.
2007 @Rose Bowl: Christian Taylor gets hurt. Stupid Cal fans sitting behind me (6 rows deep of Cal Fans). Some idiot yells “Kick him in the ribs”. Needless to say, I was PISSED. I turned around and told the dude to shut the F up before I kicked his ass and next thing you know all these wanna be gansta Cal fans want to jump me and my buddy. 2 vs. however many they were. The idiot that made that statement, nowhere to be seen. He was hiding behind the other fans and behind his girl. Pathetic.
I get that Cal has come up. I even get that they are excited. I know a lot of Cal fans that are resonable and truly value Tedford and the success that he has brought them. It is the newbies that have no clue where Cal has come from. They think that they own the Pac and it is really funny to see them calling for Tedford’s head. They should thank God everyday that he is their coach because there was no Cal football for a loooong time until he arrived.
Don’t care much for them. They are inconsequential in the big picture. Sustain excellence or even dominate an era and then maybe you can spout off. Just a little bit only though.
Don't mind Cal
though the hate that some Cal fans exhibit toward UCLA, I think, is an offshoot of the general antipathy in the Bay Area toward LA and southern california.
I grew up in a Cal family – my grandfather on one side played football there just before WWII, his brother was a “Double Bear” (undergrad + law); while my grandmother on the other side worked at one of the Lawrence/UC labs during the war, and my aunt also spent 7 years in hippytown – and grew up rooting for the Bears along with the rest of the family. None of us ever held anything against the Bruins; aside from games vs. Cal, we always pulled for the Bruins, always hoped for a whomping on $C and to uphold the pac-10’s honor. Even now, aside from some teasing at Thanksgiving/X-mas following the last couple Cal wins over Dorrell, the familial mood seems the same. In middle/high school, the Cal fans I knew never really seemed to care about UCLA’s fortunes one way or the other. There are some of all sorts, I suppose.
And norcald, the Bruin/trOJan ratio at my law school during my tenure was about the same 4:1 that you mention above, with my entering class actually at 7:1 Bruins. Mere coincidence I imagine ;)
7:1 in favor of Bruins?
You must be at a SoCal law school then, because all of them up here in the Bay Area are Cal-leaning (I suspect the geographics of the state has something to do with it).
BarBri’s a bitch, isn’t it? Haha.
East coast, actually
UVa law to be precise. My year, at least, had a surprisingly strong California presence – 7 Bruins, 4 each from Cal and Stanford, the lone trOJan, several others from various other UC’s/Claremont/other private colleges. Nearly 30 in all.
And yeah, BarBri does suck. And I have simulated MBE/state essays for the rest of the week. Oh joy!
Correction
now that I recall, there actually was no Trojan in my 1L class; the guy I was thinking of was the year ahead of me (c/o 2007). I believe there was also 1 in the class following mine.
UVA? Very nice.
Ahh, I read your earlier comment to infer that there were many Bruins and the ratio worked out to 7 to 1, not that it actually was 7 Bruins to 1 trOJan. And it seems that SoCal law schools are heavily UCLA and the ones up here are more Cal-leaning
We had the simulated MBE last week. It’s not so bad, although fatigue/burnout will definitely set in around question 180. Good luck with it!
Besides, think of it this way: in a month we can go back to having normal lives.
I don't get the hate either
I actually posted something about this recently. There is something there about the No-Cal vs So-Cal bullsh!t. That seems to come first. And, I’m pretty sure it’s one sided. LA people just don’t carry around hate the way they do. There is the Dodger/Giant hatred but even there the SF people carry a much brighter torch.
My only question is this: who is more annoying? Oregon or Cal? Both have been irrelevant for so long and only recently come upon some success which of course has turned their fan base into rabid jack asses. I’ll say it over and over again, wishful thinking won’t get you there.
A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden
Old school
The guy I go to FB games with graduated from UCLA in the 50’s. I think he was there during the ‘54 championship run. Anyway, during Cal games, if a Cal player gets called for a penalty, esp. a personal foul, he’ll turn to me and say “Dirty Bears!” Never really hear that about any other school, except maybe the condoms. I’m thinking the rivalry may have been more intense on our side back in the day.
It makes me sad
I root for our Northern California comrades, the only time I root against them is when they play us. My sister is a recent Cal grad, and her friends were nothing but cool to me when I was up there for the ‘06 game (I was retardedly drunk, and making an ass out of myself, I wasn’t the best representative of our school at that time) and her friends were nothing but cool to me despite my idiot attitude. I’m grateful for that.
I really believe the general hatred we hear on this post is coming more from Northern California Cal grads and fans rather than the transplants from So Cal. I think it comes from their general “I hate So Cal” attitude (which is a mystery to me, I love SF as a city, it’s friggin’ awesome up there).
I’m disappointed with our northern friends, there’s no need for this. Let’s hate the common enemy, $c and Stanfurd.
Victory or until next year!
Amend last comment
I’m at work, so my comments aren’t well thought out:
’ “I hate So Cal" attitude (which is a mystery to me, I love SF as a city, it’s friggin’ awesome up there).’
I meant to say that despite being born and raised in LA (and being a third generation Bruin) , I hold no hate for SF, in fact I think it’s an awesome city.
Victory or until next year!
Being from NorCal
...and having applied/accepted to Cal, as long with a good amount of friends who go there, I somewhat understand the hatred towards UCLA…which has a lot to do with the mentality that we’re the little brother and that we stole their fight song, their colors, and their mascot. I can see where they’re coming from…but then again, we’re all under the UC umbrella.
I don’t think there’s even a rivalry even if the Cal kids hype it up to be one. Anyways, it’s always nice to pull off an 8-clap along with an entire upper half of Bruin fans in Haas Pavilion while the Cal band plays Big C… =)
Btw, I haven’t been on the internets due to moving out of the dorms/moving into a new apartment…but I have returned now. Back to business.
GO BRUINS!
It's not the "stealing", IMO
It’s just that we win too much. I don’t think there would be this kind of anger if we didn’t beat them like a drum and then play “their” fight song to celebrate it. I think I’d be a little upset too in that situation, since that makes it seem like we’re rubbing their nose in it. Of course it’s not intentional, but I guess it’s hard to get used to hearing your own song when you’re getting pasted. No one likes to get passed up by little bro. Then again, it’s been happening for decades. You’d think they’d be used to it by now.
I harbor no ill will towards Cal, but I guess I can see where their resentment comes from. Better resentment than pity, I say.
I've always...
..thought it was kind of funny how Cal fans get so agitated about us “stealing” their song, mascot, etc. If they knew their history, Cal and UCLA were the first two UC schools and were considered (at the time) sister schools…therefore, we shared a lot of the same traditions. Only later, as more schools were added to the UC system did it become an issue with Cal fans. Not to mention that not a single CAl or UCLA fan alive today had any input on what our fight song would be.
Funny how people from NorCal are constantly bitching about all of the bitching by people in LA. Oh, sweet irony.
Go Bruins.
Cal fans should be pro-UCLA
Afterall, if it wasn’t for UCLA, nobody would recognize their fight song.
by bornagainbruin on Jul 2, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm probably the lamest Bruin fan of all time ...
My emotions towards other college teams sort of go in and out depending on who they have on their team and who is coaching them.
Like, I sort of like Tedford and I kind of liked Desean Jackson and Lynch so I sort of like watching Cal sometimes. I liked watching Powe, so I sort of would watch Cal hoops if they happened to be on.
I’ve liked other Pac 10 teams for the same reason. I liked Aaron Brooks at Oregon, so I sort of rooted for the Ducks those years. I could go on—I’ve even liked certain Arizona basketball teams, depending on who they had at the time.
Of course, I always root against USC, but I have friends who root for USC or who went to USC and there is no real issue between us.
I really don’t root against too many teams, other than SC. Hell, I don’t even mind saying SC has some players I like to watch, I only root against them because they are playing for my rival. I wrote the other day that I like Taj Gibson, for example.
As for Cal, I guess I don’t get the “UCLA stole our colors and our fight song” thing. I mean, I know those guys are smart, they must know that back when the colors were chosen and the song was “stolen” it made sense because UCLA was branching off from the campus in Berkeley. In fact, don’t all the UC schools have a variation on Blue and Gold? Besides, it happened decades ago. It’s funny to read posts from people who became Cal fans during the Dorrell era or the Lavin era and they are angry about something that happened when their grandparents were students. It would be like a current UCLA student being angry about something Pete Newell did.
I would have no problem rooting for Cal, I don’t think. (The only reason I’m hesitating is because I have a buddy who is a Cal grad and he razzes me when Cal wins something. So, I sort of don’t root for them to avoid the razzing, but I don’t root that hard. I could even root for them if they had a player I liked).
As for the rivalry between Northern California and Southern California, I don’t get that really either. I like San Francisco, I like Berkeley. I like Los Angeles more, but I like to visit the Bay Area. I root for the Angels, so I root against the A’s, but I don’t hate Oakland.
I’m not trying to feel superior or anything, I just can’t work up a good hate for a school or a city based on geography or a sports team.
Caveat: I do sometimes root against too much success for other Pac 10 teams because I don’t want them to bypass UCLA. An example would be this:
I like Mike Montgomery, I thought he did great at Stanford. I think he’ll do well at Cal. I just don’t want him to do too well, because then we’ll have to worry about him getting recruits we want, that sort of thing. So, I can’t out and out root for Cal to do great—but I won’t root against them, either. If they get some guys I like, I’ll like watching them, if they don’t, I guess I won’t pay attention to them that much one way or the other. But relatively speaking, I’d like to see Montgomery do well there.
Go Bruins
I'm similar
My team likes and dislikes change based on players, coaches, and the situation (except for USC). I have a really good friend who goes to Cal, and I have no hate for them – though it was funny to see his reaction to that game where we beat Cal. Ultimately, Cal doesn’t matter in the big picture, as they do not pose much of a threat to us, especially in basketball. With more success comes more bandwagoning and more hate; we’re beginning to see this now with the UCLA basketball program. College basketball fans as a whole are starting to cheer against us. While we’re not quite as hated as Duke or UNC yet, we’re on our way.
Bay Area Warriors fan currently at UCLA.
Nice Post
I’m a Cal fan and I stumbled here from SMQ via your expectations post. Nothing about that here.
I don’t really like some aspects of UCLA but otherwise I’m fine with it. I was raised in the Bay Area (San Jose to be exact) but I had cousins in So Cal (Orange county/LA) so I visited pretty often. Over the years many things I saw (half of which I don’t remember honestly) just irked me about the area. Then there’s the whole fact that many people (outside of CA) ignore the benefits of the Bay Area and Silicon Valley and attribute all of CA’s awesomeness (make no mistake this state is awesome) to LA and the area. I know this shouldn’t piss me off, but realize I’m human. As human I feel angry at that. One might call it an inferiority complex. It is a flaw. But I can’t help it. But I don’t let it consume me. It’s just something in the back of my mind.
And same with the school. Many people (outside of the west coast) believe “oh wow UCLA so awesome. What’s Cal? A school with only sports? Berkeley? That nerd/hippie school with no sports? Berkelee? Isn’t that a music school?”. Again refer to my problem above.
I realize that both of these are character flaws but I can’t help it. We all have some. That said I am in no way an asshole nor do I hate any fans from other school (except for these two drunken Trojans last year who spit on a little kid in a stroller in front of his parents and then got into a fight with me when I called him out on it).
One last thing is with the recognition thing again. I am an Engineering major (EECS to be accurate) and I was accepted to Cal, UCLA, Stanfurd but chose Cal due to location and price. However there is not a day (outside of Berkeley of course) that people tell me I should’ve gone to Stanfurd or UCLA because of better academics in Computer Science. Again I’m not debating whether it is accurate (In my opinion it is false mainly considering I as an intern get to boss around Stanford grads heh), but it’s another annoying thing.
So in short my ramble was basically trying to say why I’m not a big fan of LA or UCLA in general but that should not mean I hate the fans and the people. Far from it. I’m just annoyed. And if you are to come to Berkeley you will not find me (aside from a short verbal joke) ever being an asshole nor will I do so in LA or anywhere.
In other words, Go Bears!
It’s largely a one-way street. The hatred flows south. It never really bothered me and they can think they’re are superior all they want. The truth is, UCLA is probably the most well-rounded institution out there. We’ve got academics that can challenge or surpass Cal and our athletics are, generally speaking, leaps and bounds ahead of them. No wonder they hate (envy) us.
Let's debate
Sorry I came in here late, but I think that we should grapple with this idea.
I have sensed an abundance of hatred that flows from Cal fans towards UCLA. I think that this is a rivulet of the complex Northern California current of hate that flows one-way towards Southern California.
While it is true that the American concept of the state comes from the Gold Rush and the growth of San Francisco, the Bay Area is not all that California has to offer. This is clear when you realize that the "American" culture that has spread around the world has been promulgated by Hollywood and is really Southern Californian culture. Fast-food, hot rods, movie stars, and the like are all associated with So. Cal. So some venerable Old Blues feel that they should rub the fact that we are the second institution in the system in our faces and say disparaging things about UCLA along with a general looking down their noses at anything south of Monterey. Northern California’s problem is that it is determined to keep the distinction between the "real, cultured, legitimate, and historical" center of the state and the new. Well, I have news for you, we are just as venerable, Old Blues.
That said, I think it is interesting to note that the Bruin mascot was approved by the Cal student body or so it is said. Cal was instrumental in our founding as we are the second institution in the system. Time and time again we hear the Cal fan bemoan the use of the script to spell out our name, the "baby" bear, the playing of "Sons of Westwood" © and the colors. But we represent the State of California too. We are a public institution. This argument that we "stole" anything is infantile and demeans our state university system. Just because you are having an inferiority complex?
Now people like So Cal Oski will go on and on about our fans. But I ask you, what makes UCLA fans so evil? Is the proportion of assholes to normals higher at UCLA? If you are even tempted to say "yes," I would ask why? Why is that the case? Is there something in the water? A hole in the ozone right over L.A. that lets the asshole rays in? Use your big Berkeley minds to come up with a solution to that one. Maybe a big asshole meteor crashed into L.A. killing all the cool people, leaving just the assholes. Oh yes, trust me, I have made such an argument against USC fans but I will say now I don’t really believe it. I think they have a lot of asshole non-alumni bandwagon fans but the average SC puke is all right.
Maybe you wish to make the argument that we are overly expectant of our sports teams? Since when is this a crime? If Cal suddenly dipped in national rankings in an academic capacity, you would hear no end to the complaining and finger-pointing. Why then are we singled-out for this when one of our teams doesn’t perform? This argument is pure shit.
So this finally leaves us with the common ground. There are assholes of every stripe. California is one state that we should all be proud of. This state’s rich history and tradition is big enough for all of us. Maybe you should take off the anti-so. cal shades (anteojos de so. cal) and realize we are pretty much the same. I did. When I got my Berkeley acceptance packet I thought it was worded in presumptuous and elitist manner. Over the years I have come to realize it was my prejudices that were influencing the way I saw things and the way I read the words. I’m big enough to realize that I was wrong.
I somewhat disagree
I’ve seen various forms of this argument tossed around:
I think that this is a rivulet of the complex Northern California current of hate that flows one-way towards Southern California.
And, as a Bay Area Bruin, I knew plenty of fellow Bruins during my time at UCLA who liked to rag on us from up north, at times without us ragging on SoCal first (for example, I cannot think how many times I heard jibes about the “Gay Area”, how it should be “NoCal” not “NorCal” because it’s a non-entity or how lame “hella” is).
I take the NorCal-SoCal rivalry tongue-in-cheek. I think it’s amusing and I love both parts of the state, but I think it’s somewhat unfair to those of us from up north to claim that the hate or viritol flows one way from NorCal to SoCal, having experienced the opposite.
I don’t deny that there are plenty of Bay Area yuppie assholes with some kind of superiority complex on how the Bay Area is superior to SoCal. But, let’s not hide behind the SoCal-colored glasses and deny that similar assholes who hate on the north don’t exist either.
I can't totally agree.
I grew up in So. Cal, and have lived here my whole life. I attended UCSB undergrad, and UCLA’s Anderson for grad school.
The funny thing is, I don’t know anybody from So. Cal. who hates on No. Cal. Neither have I even met anyone that does. Sure, we’ll rag on No. Cal. guys when we get a chance, but there’s no more emotional ties to “hating” on No. Cal. fans than ragging on Oregon fans, Washington fans, or AZ fans.
Going to UCSB opened my eyes to the hatred of L.A. by the No. Cal. guys. You meet some new friends from No. Cal, you start talking sports, and before you know it, he’d ask what I thought of the Giants. I’d say I really don’t have an opinion one way or the other on them. Then I’d make the mistake of asking what they thought of the Dodgers, and it was always, “fuck the Dodgers!!” It was actually kind of funny, but it was just my first taste of that hatred. It’s sad, and way way too many of them hate our sports teams, our city, whine about stealing their fight song….heck, some are even pissed that we “steal” their water.
The bottom line is that So. Cal’ers that hate No. Cal are extremely rare and outliers within the general So. Cal. population, while No. Cal’ers that hate So. Cal. are a dime a dozen. Come to think it, this makes it much more fun to rag on them (relative to others) when we have the opportunity.
Heck, growing up as a huge Dodgers fan, I didn't even realize that Giants fans considered themselves "rivals" of the Dodgers.The only thing I’d say is that it is more fun ragging on No. Cal. fans.
So, while there may be a few So. Cal. guys that hate No. Cal., it’s very few and far between.
by bornagainbruin on Jul 3, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
That's your opinion...
...and you’re entitled to it. But I experienced things differently than you did. Different people at different places at different times, so it’s to be expected that reasonable people (like you and I) would disagree as to our experiences.
However, I still think it’s unfair to assume that SoCal fans who rag on NorCal are few and far between while there is a legion of NorCal folks hating on SoCal. I understand your experience is a bit different, but I would think Bruins are above dealing with broad generalities.
Like I said, I readily concede there are plenty of NorCal people who hate on SoCal, often with no rational reason. But to make declaratory statements like:
The bottom line is that So. Cal’ers that hate No. Cal are extremely rare and outliers within the general So. Cal. population, while No. Cal’ers that hate So. Cal. are a dime a dozen
That has absolutely no basis in fact outside of your personal experience. While it may be true in your life experience, that does not make it “fact” and the unwillingness to even recognize the possibility that there are just as many SoCal people who hate on NorCal as NorCal people who hate on SoCal is, well, kind of stupid.
Finally, if we’re going to throw out whining about how NorCal unfairly hates on SoCal, then you need to prepare to recognize that chants of “Beat LA” are heard in every arena in every part of this country whenever a Los Angeles team, of any sport, in any level is visiting. Don’t call your northern brethren out as if we alone are the culprits behind the cult of hating LA.
From my current undergrad experience...
...there are more people than one might expect that return the animosity towards NorCal, especially when you come across the occasional anti-NorCal shirt on campus.
Quite frankly, I think the whole NorCal/SoCal debate should be left to sports. I dislike the Dodgers and Lakers…but LA is just wonderful and I keep my dislike to the sports world. Oh, and that ghetto school down the freeway.
GO BRUINS!
One-way flow
I have to stand by what I stated, the flow is largely one way. Anti-Frisco sentiment, that it is a gay community, is something that is largely subsiding. When I was a kid, people couldn’t mention SF without saying something about homosexuals. I feel that this is 1) a countrywide pejorative remark about SF, and 2) it is subsiding now that more homosexuals are coming out all over the country. At one time, the few places like SF that were tolerant (not to mention West Hollywood) were singled out because of that tolerance. Such remarks, however, are not specific to So. Cal.
We are talking about something else here. I don’t really care what your average rock-slapping out-of-state troglodyte says about California, as far as I’m concerned that is born out of jealousy. We are talking about the specific Cal/UCLA hate that is largely coming from Golden Bears.
Most of we Bruins, who have extensive relationships with Bears, notice this hate. I’m at a California law school. Lots of Bears here. Most do not like UCLA and will make it a point to tell you that even under the shadow of the buildings of Los Angeles. If they can’t contain their hatred here, imagine what it must be like up there. Conversely, I don’t know of any UCLA graduate who hates Cal. Sure, it is growing but I feel that this is in response to what we are getting from Bears.
So yes, I stand by what I say, although, it is an over generalization.
by Bruins102NCAA on Jul 3, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Like I said...
...I agree that most of the Cal-UCLA hate comes from Bears, but to generalize that within the context of a NorCal-SoCal rivalry is a logical step too far, I think.
Yes, Bears are the ones behind most of the viritol in this “rivalry” between sister UC campuses. In fact, given their athletic futility in contrast with our consistent, dominating success in everything, I can understand why Bears are such big haters.
But I’m willing to bet Bears from all parts of California, SoCal Bears and NorCal Bears hate on UCLA.
And I’m at a Northern California law school (7 years in the UC…oh, what fun!), where there are a lot of Bears. They don’t really hate. Probably because we keep kicking their ass.
Again, like I said, I think it’s a step too far to take this recent run of hatred aimed at UCLA by Cal folks and generalize it within the context of the supposed NorCal-SoCal rivalry. Yes, the viritol is one-way as it applies to the UCLA-Cal thing. As for NorCal-SoCal, that’s where I have to disagree with you.
You say
Tomato and I say Tom-ah-to.
Don’t really understand the argument. I say there is a definite Nor-Cal resentment of So-Cal, you say that the Cal hate primarily flows to UCLA. I say there is a correlation, you say there is none.
We can debate this all night but I would wager that the Cal student body was primarily composed of northern Californians. I do know that UCLA is mostly southern Californians.
Anyone know where we can get the figures on this?
by Bruins102NCAA on Jul 4, 2008 4:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sure...
...it probably leans along the lines of:
UCLA: 60-65% SoCal residents, 35-40% NorCal residents
Cal: 60-65% SoCal residents, 35-40% SoCal residents
I have no basis or statistic to support this other than my own hunch and personal experience. I knew a lot of Bruins from the Bay Area, both during my time at UCLA and in law school. Likewise, I knew a lot of Bruins from SoCal, and I feel like there are slightly more from the general LA area than there are from the Bay Area.
I’m not sure we’ll get definitive statistics on this; it appears the university only keeps track of the California versus out-of-state dichotomy. I’m pretty sure, from what I know about admissions, is that they keep track which high school a student comes from, but I couldn’t find that information released anywhere on the interwebs.
As to the Cal hatred of UCLA, I’m just not ready to say there is a correlative relationship between Cal’s recent run of hatred toward us to the general NorCal-SoCal rivalry given the extremely high probability that at least one-third of each campus is comprised of students from the other part of the state. I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong, I’m simply saying that I think it’s a bit premature to find a correlation between the two without any other evidence/statistics.
Given I base this on personal experience (I know plenty of Bears here at law school who are from SoCal who look down on UCLA ), but I think we’re going to have trouble finding any definitive answers as to the make-up of each school’s student body.
Where do you draw the line?
I remember a conversation back in the day where a new acquaintance told me he was from the “Bay Area”. I had become fascinated at this mythical region called the “Bay Area” as no one ever seemed to live in any actual incorporated city in NoCal, other than those who proudly claimed they were from “The City” (even SF could not apparently be named). Anyway, I pressed on and the answers went “Well, just outside the Bay Area” to “Actually, it’s south of the Bay Area”, to finally, “Fresno” !!!!!
So let’s debate this —where does NoCal end and SoCal start? The Central Valley? Bakersfield? Magic Mountain? Who gets Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo and Gilroy? And do they even want any part of this themselves?
I hope no one is taking this post too seriously. I claimed SoCal roots by growing up in Lancaster, but most of SoCal doesn’t know or care where Lancaster is – which is fairly understandable.
What is important now is that I claim (just) California roots, because while NoCal and SoCal still squabble like 8 year old siblings (which is pretty funny to watch when you aren’t one of those siblings), California is, when you consider its population, industry, politics, sociology, natural geography, history, schools, etc, the most amazing dynamic beautiful puzzling inspiring and important state in the US.
Except for $cjc.
greg in denver
Lancaster
I’m from Lancaster. Sitting here right now. Yeah, it still sucks.
It’s in L.A. County so it’s So-Cal.
But to your point, there isn’t a dividing line. There is Los Angeles and San Fransisco who have been vying for power for about a hundred years now. With San Diego and other cities becoming more prominent, the whole squabble will get more interesting.
From what I understand, the last split-state proposal in 1992 (a topic which I would love to debate) failed in the Bay Area but counties north of there were all for it. So, I think there can be 4 Californias: So-Cal, Bay Area, Central Valley, and the crazy people up top. Really somewhat arbitrary and goes to the stupidity of anyone who wants to divide our great state.
by Bruins102NCAA on Jul 4, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The interesting thing...
...and I’m sure SoCal homers will love this is that the Bay Area cannot even define itself and argue just as much, if not more so, than folks do about NorCal-SoCal. Being a long-time Bay Area guy, basically, this is how it works:
1. People in the city more or less assume they’re the top dog because they’re in the city and everyone else is in the suburbs.
2. Then the folks in the “inner” Bay Area (Marin County, San Mateo, Santa Clara, and the portions of Contra Costa and Alameda on the west side of the hills, think that only their part of the Bay Area really counts, since they can see the bay from wherever it is they live.
3. People in the “outer” Bay Area, places like Vallejo, Benicia, and the inner parts of Alameda and Contra Costa (like Concord, Dublin) think the Bay Area extends as far as they do, but no further.
4. Finally, the people in the far eastern reaches of Alameda and Contra Costa (places like Livermore, Antioch, and Brentwood) think they should be included since they’re within reach of BART and their counties border the SF Bay.
It’s all kind of a joke, really, but there’s a certain level of “my part of the Bay Area is the real Bay Area and where you’re from isn’t” mentality up here.
Anyway, I, for a change, have to agree with Bruins102NCAA on this. There isn’t a clear dividing line. Where does the Central Valley become part of NorCal? Part of SoCal? Is Fresno the cutting off point? Or is the entire valley part of NorCal?
And what about SLO? Or Gilroy? Or those folks out in the Imperial Valley? Sure, that’s about as far south as possible, but culturally, do they feel connected to the same “SoCal” that houses LA and Orange County?
Likewise, Mendocino Co. is about as far north as it gets, but there’s definitely a difference between folks up there and Bay Area residents.
Sad part is, though, at the end of the day, Sacramento can give us all the finger, because, well no matter what we say, at the end of the day they still get to be the capital. Not that it means it’s better, but, well, on a purely technical basis, Sacramento is the “power” center of California.
I suppose G has the best perspective on this entire issue: regardless of what part we live in, we’re all Californians. I mean, it could be worse, right? We could be from somewhere like North Dakota.
SF is not "The City"
Sgt. Joe Friday cleared that up a long time ago. Every Dragnet started with the same line: “This is the city. Los Angeles, California. I work here. I’m a cop.”
Now tell me you’re going to believe some tree-hugging hippie peace freak multi-sexual weenie who probably wants to be a lawyer of all things over Sgt. Joe Friday.
I think I’ve made my point. Thank you.
Only problem though...
...is that Sgt. Joe Friday is a bit before my time, so while I get the gist of your point, it doesn’t hit home with this young’n. I grew up on Det. Lennie Briscoe and Jack McCoy (which truth be told, may be part of the reason I’ve wanted to be a prosecutor for so long).
That’s what happens when one is born in 1983. Shame the ‘03 re-make didn’t make it, although I suspect it wouldn’t have been as satisfying for you old ship hands.
It's all in the family
I’m a Bruin, my sister and her husband went to Cal, Mom and Dad went to Washington, other sister did grad school at Oregon, one in-law went to Stanford, a cousin went to WSU. The only common denominator is a hatred of usc.
However, back in the 80’s, when “The Streak” ended, my phone rand within seconds of the game game ending, and all I heard was my sister laughing.
Bob O. (Signholder #3)
I'm Another Bruin
who doesn’t get the Cal hatred of UCLA. Like gbruin, I look at Cal as another UC school, and I would prefer that they outperform every other school except UCLA in both sports and academics. I, like everyone else who has posted here, hate asshole fans no matter who they “support”-spitting on little kids, screaming obscenities and threats at KL’s family, yelling racial slurs at anybody, or nobody, for that matter-whatever, it’s all unacceptable, ignorant and hateful. (Unfortunately, these people exist and probably every school and team has some of them, including ours.) Admittedly, some Cal troller came here and flamed Coach Howland (IIRC) at some point this past season and that really got me angry, too. I just don’t choose to believe that person is representative of the entire Bear fan population.
Maybe the folks in leadership postions have something to do with how out of hand the hatred-based conduct gets. I believe that Orgeon’s coach and AD never took an appropriate stand against the “fans” who emabarrassed their school at the basketball game last season, and set no example for them. Seriously, do you think Coach Howland or DG would tolerate that kind of crap at Pauley? What if Coach Wooden was sitting there? (Hell, I’ll bet Fox, 66, Nestor and a whole bunch of other BN’ers would call them out before Ben even had to look around behind him.)
So, really, Go Bears…except when you’re up against my Bruins.
Love My Bruins
Kevin O'Neill comes to mind
He may not have endeared himself to the Mildcat faithful with his coaching decisions, but the man had class. When one of the idiot Mildcat fans threw a water bottle or something at a SUC player during their game, he picked up the mic and let the crowd have it. I gained a lot of respect for the man in that moment.
A Different Take
Except for assorted loved ones and our dog, UCLA is the love of my life. I was born and raised in Southern California and lived for six years in the Bay Area. Frankly, I like the Bay Area more than L.A., but that’s neither right or wrong - just a matter of taste. What I haven’t seen on this thread is the likelihood that what we’re witnessing now is the beginning of a healthy - and fun—new intra-state rivalry that may be in full bloom in another 5-10 years. Sure, we want to always beat other PAC-10 schools, but the only one that has consistently been a matter of life and death is our bitter rivalry with sc, where our hatred is more than justified. As some others have stated, I root for Cal when they aren’t playing UCLA. But I, for one, feel it would be great to think of beating Cal the way that Longhorns feel about beating Sooners, even though beating the Aggies of Texas A & M is what they live for.
There are nasty and classless sports fans everywhere, including UCLA. Cal is no better or worse, from what I’ve observed. The best we can do is keep winning and show class by being good sports. We’re proud UCLA Bruins, after all.
"Beat LA"
This is just my opinion, but the reason why people chant “Beat LA” is because they are actually jealous, or tired, of our success. Outside of LA, people hated the Showtime lakers. They hated the lakers dynasty of 2000+. They hated UCLA during our amazing stretch of bball championships under Wooden. But does anyone hate the clippers? Not really. Not that I know of.
It’s just like how i’m sick and tired of boston right now. The patiots, the bosox, the celts. I hate that the city has enjoyed so much success. But when those teams sucked… i could care less about them.
So, I conclude that Cal hates UCLA because it’s a newer university (relatively speaking, of course) and yet it’s enjoyed so much success. This is also why I think the hatred flows from North to South. Any hatred SoCal has for NorCal is, in my humble opinion, a response to the hatred that originated from NorCal.
The South can do no wrong...
...and yes, everyone from NorCal is a big hater. Shame on you SoCal. You steal our water. You win everything. We hope an earthquake breaks you off from the rest of the state.
On the flip side, pigs will sooner fly, Heaven will sooner collapse before one of those angelic Southern Californians ever first speaks ill of those from the north.
I mean come the fuck on. It’s the arrogance of assuming you’re right that makes people from NorCal think people from SoCal are assholes.
As to your main point, in my opinion (and I emphasize that it’s my mere opinion), I don’t think it has anything to do with athletic success. The Packers, Steelers, Niners, Cowboys, Bulls, and Red Wings have all had impressive records of success in their respective sports and periods. Yet, for some reason, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Dallas, Chicago, and Detroit never became focal points of hate. When Boston’s recent run of success ends, the hate will fade.
But even when the Lakers suck (as they have for the last 3 years) and when the Yankees suck (as they have in the last 8 years), people still hate on New York and Los Angeles.
I think it has much more to do with that fact that people outside of NYC and LA have this picture (albeit an inaccurate and incorrect one) of the arrogant big-city guy who thinks that because he’s from NYC or LA, he’s better than everyone else. That image is reinforced by the fact that 95% of all television shows and movies are set in one of the two cities, and that often, television and movies play up the stereotypes of New Yorkers and Los Angelenos.
Think of it this way: the way we think and talk about trOJans is a broad generality, but, the behavior we rip on U$C for is the kind of behavior that the rest of the country sees and attributes to Los Angeles as a whole, rather than U$C specifically.
Perhaps part of the problem is U$C is tainting your fine city’s reputation.
Although I’m sure it doesn’t help that your mayor writes letters to the city of Boston, making grandiose wagers while commenting that it’s been a while since the Lakers beat the Celtics.
Pride goes before the fall, doesn’t it?
I didn’t meant to suggest that SoCal can do no wrong. In fact, I’ve witnessed first hand how stupid some of our fans can get and that ill will flows up north as well. But my point isn’t that LA is angelic and can do no wrong (although your sarcasm is duly noted).
What I was saying, was that people hate on LA and Cal hates on UCLA because they are younger and, to a greater extent, because they have enjoyed success. Perhaps this is an overly simplistic look at history, but… people tend to hate the new, especially when it succeeds. The east coast hated the west when it started to prosper. San Francisco hated LA when it started to come up as a major market. Cal hated UCLA when it started doing better and gaining it’s independent identity. USC hated UCLA when it moved into the same city.
But again, being the “new” guy is just part of it. I think it has much more to do with the success. Yes, when the lakers sucked people still hated LA. I think that’s because of how recent the LA success was. You can’t honestly say that people hated the crappy lakers of late more than the lakers that were winning championships. If the lakers went on a losing streak for 10 years, I doubt the hatred would be nearly as strong. No, people would be much more apathetic. Again, i use the clippers as an example. They are an LA team, but really… who hates them like they hate the lakers. So no, it’s not just because we’re LA and it’s not just because the media makes people hate LA.
Notre Dame is still hated and they’ve been sucking for quite some time now
In other words, Go Bears!
and by the way
i apologize because i was out of line a bit when i started saying NorCal vs. SoCal. I really meant to limit my comments to Cal vs. UCLA.
It's understandable...
...but I’m glad you see what I was trying to say, despite my sarcasm. While I certainly agree with you, 100% as to this whole recent rash of Cal hatred aimed toward us, I just don’t see how it fits within the NorCal-SoCal rivalry given that both UCLA and Cal are basically half NorCal students and half-SoCal students (I don’t know the exact percentages at each school, but we all know that UCLA has tons of NorCal students, and I’m sure Cal has tons of SoCal transplants).
In my experience,...
LA people don’t really spend much time thinking about Berkeley or SF, while Bears and NorCal people take every opportunity to denigrate UCLA/LA, so as to build themselves up. It really speaks to Bears/NorCal’s inferiority complex, which comes from their feeling annoyed since the power/money/prestige/cultural center of California has shifted from SF to LA, and from Berkeley to UCLA. It makes total sense. It’s basically psychology. If the Bears were confident and secure, then there is no need to hate us; in fact, they would root for us as a sister school.
But after being so sick of the annoying comments from Bears/SF throughout the years, I now root against Bears/ NorCal, which is easy to do, because they don’t win much of anything, at Berkeley, or even the professional teams.
Well then...
...since:
NorCal people take every opportunity to denigrate UCLA/LA, so as to build themselves up
I better get to it and start hating on my alma mater and the very cool city I enjoyed during my time as a Bruin to make myself feel better about myself.
Finally, I don’t think it’s accurate to say the power/money/prestige/cultural center of California has shifted from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Truth be told, it really depends on the industry as to which city is the “center” (entertainment industry it’s SoCal; the high-tech industry, it’s hands-down the Silicon Valley) and comparing San Francisco’s cultural contributions to Los Angeles’ is like comparing apples to oranges. Moreover, I don’t understand the “power” dynamic. Granted, the Governator is from SoCal (and is admittingly a big SoCal guy), but considering both our Senators and the Speaker of the House are from the Bay Area, I fail to see how SoCal is the “power” center.
Interesting statistic I found though on tourism. According to Los Angeles’ Convention and Visitors Bureau, LA hosted approximately 25.4 million tourists, generating $13.5 billion in revenue. Likewise, according to San Francisco’s Convention and Visitors Bureau, SF hosted approx. 16.1 million tourists, generating $8.2 billion in revenue.
On the face of it, I’d say both cities are making substantial contributions to the California economy. Certainly more than some more remote places, like say, Barstow (SoCal) or Chico (NorCal). When you crunch those numbers, you’ll find that LA hosted 6.59 visitors per resident (LA’s population, excluding suburbs and only counting the city itself is at 3,849,378) and SF hosted 21.05 visitors per resident (SF’s population, excluding suburbs and counting the city itself, is 764,976). Likewise, LA generated $3,507.06 per resident in tourism revenue, while SF generated $10,719.29 per resident.
Now, I’m not saying one city is qualitatively better. Personally, I love both cities and think they’re both great places to live/work/visit. I’m just putting some data out there, which, I think dispels the notion that LA alone is the “power/money/prestige/cultural” center of California.
Broad generalities are the stuff of trOjans.
Argue what you may
But, please, let’s leave the “trOjans” stuff out of it. Thanks and Happy Independence Day.
It has shifted
Granted, the Governator is from SoCal (and is admittingly a big SoCal guy), but considering both our Senators and the Speaker of the House are from the Bay Area, I fail to see how SoCal is the "power" center.
Since the twenties, “Southern California” has led in taxable wealth, industry, registered votes, and contribution to the cost of state government. This has at least been the case SINCE 1930. We have the entertainment industry, the aerospace industry, and our own computer industry. Silicon Valley is a marvel, but the true marvel of this, the Information Age, is the Internet—the first node of the ARPANET is right here at UCLA. We also have been the major purveyors of “American” culture throughout the world. If we include the Central Valley and factor in the growth of San Diego and the other Southern California cities since then, our lead is vast. The only category that we do not lead in is the dominance of state politics which is dominated by Northern California.
And STILL we have to endure the Split-State movements that continue to crop-up every generation in the North. I can honestly say that the level of animosity that has come from the North does not have a quantitative equivalent in the South.
So you are right, we do lead in many areas but it seems that this is overbore by smugness, elitism, and bolstered by the historically recent invention of Silicon Valley. The “power center” is safely within your hands. Hey, I think I convinced myself of splitting the state. Then we can come up North, kick all their asses, and take it all back. We paid for most of it anyway.
by Bruins102NCAA on Jul 4, 2008 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't understand why you're trying so hard...
...to convince me of Southern California’s superiority. I think SoCal is great. I loved my time living there, and, depending on the job and pay offered, I wouldn’t mind going back.
I read the other poster’s broad-sweeping generalization as inferring that SoCal dominated in all aspects of California life, and I think that’s just too general of a statement to make. I threw out the tourism example to highlight that, at least in one significant area, a NorCal city makes a pretty substantial contribution to the economy. Likewise, I read “power center” to mean political power, which, like I said, is fairly distributed between north and south when you consider who the big movers-and-shakers in government are (Ah-nold, Feinstein, Pelosi, Boxer, Waxman, etc.). To make a sweeping assumption that power is centered in the south, I thought, was again, was a sweeping generalization that was inaccurate.
Likewise, generalizations like this:
NorCal people take every opportunity to denigrate UCLA/LA, so as to build themselves up
...are just, plain stupid, and kind of offensive. I’m not disputing that SoCal, in many ways, is a hub of not just California, but the world. What I take issue is, is some base assumption that SoCal is better, in every way possible, than your northern brethren and that the north makes no significant contribution.
I agree with you that the folks up here behind splitting the state are pretty stupid. Truth be told, I think California is more than the sum of its parts. In my opinion, what makes this state so great is our diversity (economically, culturally, ethnically). Splitting the state in two, as a result, greatly reduces the benefits that flow from south to north and north to south.
And, I mean, seriously, if we split in half, where will Pretty Boy Gavin send all of San Francisco’s trouble? I mean, San Bernardino County was such a ripe dumping ground for us!
But if we do split in half...
...we’re keeping the death chamber in the divorce.
Sure, we’re less likely to use it because we have San Francisco County and not Kern County, but you can go build your own, dammit.
But we’re willing to trade you Jerry Brown, Richmond, and Chico State for the L.A. Galaxy and a player to be named later.
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