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About That "Dumbing Down Expectations To Protect CRN" Theory ...

norcald503 is already on this. Achilles also frontpaged the key quote. I also want to  join in by adding a little more with a quick reset on the whole topic of expectations, to kick off our weekend.

So first it was Rivals.com who channeled BN’s dose of reality.

Then it was Pat Forde from WWL who came out and opined that UCLA “won’t go bowling in ‘08” with “only nine starters back and a nonconference schedule of Tennessee, BYU and Fresno State” agreeing with the arguments we have been making on BN.

Then Paul Myerberg from the Old Gray Lady channeled BN at the Quad laying out why he was “not going to go crazy” about our football team predicting a 6-6 or 7-5 season to start the Neuheisel era in Westwood.

And now Ted Miller, the official Pac-10 blogger for WWL has come out predicting an eight placed finish for UCLA (as already pointed out by norcald503 and Achilles earlier today, but I will excerpt it again anyway):

8. UCLA: The schedule is brutal (Tennessee, BYU and Fresno State are the nonconference games). The offensive line may be brutalized. New coach Rick Neuheisel didn't inherit much talent, and that figures to show on the field, no matter how good the coaching staff is.

I will just ask the question our Class of 66 posted in comment thread of our last post:

[W]here in the world did all that BS about us dumbing down expectations to protect CRN come from?

In legitimate poll after legitimate poll, the predictions are actually worse than those that were posted by BN writers and then attacked as being an effort to protect CRN and lower expectations.

Good question. Any one wants to venture with answers? I will just end with 66’s note:

No matter the talent gap, I can’t wait for FB season. I feel better about it than any time, in recent memory, even though this year we are predicted to be far worse than predicted in the last several years. We will be better. We will surprise people. And, that will be fun.

Can't say it any better and a perfect note to kick off the weekend.

GO BRUINS.

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Here, Here 66

I think the operative word to use is “Progress”.
KD = 1 step forward then 2 steps back. Mediocrity reigned supreme.
CRN = Tangible uplifting of the profile of UCLA Football without even a single game being played.

Yes, we’ll take our lumps but I am thoroughly going to relish the journey our program is embarking on. Bruins now have realistic “Hope” instead of waiting for the wheels to fall off because we all knew it was coming.

by BlueReign on Jul 11, 2008 4:53 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think

http://www.bruinsnation.com/story/2006/4/19/161435/709

is probably why people find this current slate of expectations a little hard to swallow. If you honestly expected that 2006 team to win 9 games after losing its starting quarterback (Drew Olson), best receiver (Marcedes Lewis) best running back (Mo Drew), and only quality lineman (Mike McCloskey) then you would almost certainly have to expect this year’s team to win at least 8 or 9 games. Not because they actually should win 8 or 9 games, but because you’re already set the tone for expectations here on bruinsnation.

Or maybe you were setting higher “expectations” for Dorrell so that it would seem that much worse when he went for six or seven wins year after year. Yeah, on second that, that could be it.

Dorrell was not a good coach, and Neuheisel is probably going to be a good one. But the moderators of bruinsnation have already damaged their credibility with their absurd win projections for Dorrell, and that, more than anything, is why some may find your current expectations to be a little soft.

Just a thought.

Hugs-
David

by DavidWoods on Jul 11, 2008 5:52 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're comparing apples to oranges

David, I think the problem you’re having with BN having lower expectations this season under CRN than BN would have under KD is that you’re comparing apples to oranges. This is the same problem SMQ couldn’t quite grasp, but hopefully, you’re brighter than that, to be blunt, poser wannabe moron who pretends to be an analyst/journalist.

Had KD not been fired and was still in charge, he would be entering his sixth season at the helm in Westwood. He would have had five seasons prior to this one to (i) set up his system, (ii) bring in the coaching personnel he wanted, and most importantly, (iii) bring in five classes of his recruits.

Now, CRN is in charge. He’s had the few months between KD’s firing and now to (i) set up his system, (ii) bring in his coaching staff, and (iii) bring in the kind of recruits he wants. Obviously, CRN has not had five years to recruit or implement his system. CRN getting a stellar staff together is nothing short of amazing. But that does not change the fact that CRN is using KD’s players with a roster KD put together, and playing games with guys who were used to KD’s offensive system and are not adjusting to a new regime with a new offensive system.

Almost every team, in every sport, at every level experiences a bit of a drop-off when a new coach comes in. It is very rare for a new coach to come in and win instantly (and when it does happen it’s usually because the new guy was an assistant under the old regime and, in reality, it’s a continuation of the regime rather than a full-on change). I think it’s fair to expect CRN, as a new coach, dealing with another’s guys players to not do as well. Ol’ Peety boy across town wasn’t pulling in titles and Heismans in his first year, now was he? Did Stoops win it all in his first year at OU? How did Tressel fair in his first season at the helm at OSU? That’s what I thought.

Yes, it’s true, we would expect more from KD this season, with the same guys/schedule/etc. than we are of CRN. But it’s not part of some “conspiracy” against KD or for CRN. The only “conspiracy” is that all of us at BN want our Bruins to win every week. We expect success.

As such, we expect a coach entering his sixth season to be a consistent winner. We expect winning at UCLA. I guarantee if CRN is not getting it done entering his sixth season, we will be just as vocal for his ouster as we were for KD’s. Expectations are high here. But they’re not unreasonable.

Like I said, you’re comparing apples to oranges. It’s toally unfair, irrational, and makes no logical sense to compare our expectations for KD’s sixth year and CRN’s first year. Compare what we expected from KD his first year to what we expect from CRN this year.

We would have held KD to a higher standard this season than CRN because KD is the one responsibile for the thin offensive line, and lack of experience in the secondary. This would have been his sixth season. By now he should have had this program into a well-oiled machine.

Moreover, last time I checked, you and a few crackpots (such as SMQ and the SEC Circle Jerk) are the only ones who think BN’s expectations are unreasonable.

No offense sir, but coming in here and telling us our credibility is tarnished when all you’ve done is repeat the same illogical argument coming from wannabe journalist SMQ is kind of, well, stupid, disingenous, and tarnishs your credibility.

Just so we’re clear, I’m going to repeat it one more time, so it’s absolutely crystal clear: THE EXPECTATIONS FOR A COACH ENTERING HIS SIXTH YEAR IN CHARGE ARE MUCH DIFFERENT THAN A GUY IN HIS FIRST YEAR IN CHARGE WITH PLAYERS HE DID NOT RECRUIT AND WITH GUYS LEARNING A TOTALLY NEW SYSTEM.

by norcald503 on Jul 11, 2008 8:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's just another example

of people being unable to differentiate between expectations and predictions. Most of us expected a coach in his 5th year that had a lot of experienced players to do well, but we then took into account the KD factor and predicted worse. Predictions and expectations are different.

by ryebreadraz on Jul 11, 2008 10:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eh

Expectations are not something you come up with in a vaccuum. You’ve gotta take shit into account, like facts. For example, those ones I mentioned about losing a bunch of players (just look up to my first post, I don’t like rewriting things). I think expecting six or seven wins would be about reasonable. Considering it was a Dorrell-coached team, a prediction of five wins would also have been about reasonable. And besides, that post from 06 didn’t make a distinction between prediction/expectations. Nestor came up with that nonsense last year, I believe. I don’t think most of you even looked at the link I posted.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 7:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Apples Oranges and Prunes

Two more important factors overlooked by those who make the superficial charge that BN is holding CRN to a different standard than the one to which we held KD:

1. KD had more than 20 returning starters/experienced players. He had a senior laden team that had years under his “system”; and,
2. We had a very favorable schedule.

Based on these factors, we were not the only people with “great expectations”. Some MSM reporters had us in the pre-season top 10. Others saw us going into the sc game undefeated.

David, it would not take much effort to find the very careful analysis that led to the high expectations of last year.

The predictions were not as optimistic because most of us felt we would lose games we should win because we would be “out coached”.

As to your statement that the moderators had “damaged their credibility”—by putting up unsubstantiated posts like this, you have done little to support your own credibility.

Our guys were right about last year. They have a credible track record here. They’ve earned it. You don’t and haven’t yet. To earn some credibility you might want to do more than call people out. You’ll need to support your analysis with facts.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Jul 11, 2008 11:20 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Howdy

Just linking to a previous post doesn’t make it a fact. It just makes it an old opinion. And also, I was talking about the expectations from 2006, not 2007, but it doesn’t really matter. I thought I substantiated it pretty well. Lost our best receiver, best running back, best quarterback, and best lineman from the previous year. Yeah, we shoulda had more talent to back them up, but we didn’t. Pretending otherwise just to inflate expectations to make it that much worse when Dorrell once again went swimming in a sea of mediocrity is, again, disingenuous.

I don’t know what kind of facts you want here, but there are at least two, possibly as many as three, in there.

But anyway, i think your post was responding to me as if I were talking about 2007, not 2006, so bygones.
-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

Fair points all around, actually. I’m not even objecting to the expectations for this season. I personally think it’s going to take a miracle and Ben Olson somehow, God and Norm Chow willing, learning how to react quickly and run away from hordes of tacklers to get to six wins. My beef is mainly with the fact that for the longest time, this blog has had expectations that have not been in line with the mainstream media, and now using the mainstream media to somehow back up the expectations for this season is more than a little disingenuous. Dorrell was a bad coach- I don’t see how anyone could have had reasonable expectations of a 9 win season two years ago given a) the talent lost and b) the fact that Dorrell was the coach. Predicting a six win season, which was reasonable, would have been an indictment in and of itself of Dorrell. Nestor and crew did not need to artificially inflate expectations to make their point. The product on the field did that.

Yeah, it would be Dorrell’s sixth season, and a six win season is the best we can hope for. Probably less if he were still the coach. Do we really need to say “oh, we should have ten wins this year because it’s Dorrell’s sixth year”? No, we can just say “great, on pace for another six win season, let’s fire this clown.”

But fair enough on your points about this year.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My expectations would be the same, with or without the MSM

David,

I guess I’m a bit more willing to cut you a bit of slack because (i) I didn’t know you were a DB staff writer, (ii) I wasn’t around before for your other comments (whether shortsighted or not), and (iii) despite my personal major misgivings about DB staffers and their general sense of self-importance and arrogance, I’m willing to cut you a break.

I understand what you’re saying. Basically, it’s “BN used to rip the MSM for it’s low expectations of KD and now BN is relying on the MSM to support its low expectations of CRN this season…something is amiss.”

I get what you’re saying; really, I do. I just disagree. I don’t speak for BN. I’m just some guy who comes here and talks about all things Bruins because (i) I love UCLA, (ii) this is a pretty vibrant community with a good, interesting dialogue, and (iii) it’s the only way to stay sane during breaks studying for the bar.

That said, regardless of the MSM and what it says, my expectations would be the same. I understand KD is not the coach that CRN is. That’s a given. But, when KD became coach (and when I was still a student at UCLA), my feeling was, let’s give this young guy a few years., let him set up his system and get his guys. We had that 10-2 season and at that point, I figured his system had finally took and the program had turned the corner. From that, I expected things to continue progressing. I expected at least 9 wins and no regression, even with the significant losses. At the time, I figured, this is going into KD’s fifth season. By now, even though we’re losing Olson and MJD, KD has been at the helm long enough to plan for such a contingency and bring in new guys and have new guys step into Olson and MJD’s shoes.

In Markey and Ben Olson, those were the heirs to Drew and MJD. That’s what KD would have had us believe. It was his system, he had come off a great season, I expected he knew these kids would be capable and that things would continue to progress.

What I did not expect is that KD had no sense of forward planning. That he got lucky one season and basically staked his tenure on a couple of guys, rather than planning on building a consistent winner by bringing in year after year of quality recruits (like Ol’ Cheaty Peety is doing across town). Let’s face it: Carroll didn’t stake his tenure on the shoulders of Carson Palmer or Matt Leinart alone. He brought in new guys every year who are expected to step into the role and perform (like how Booty was expected to step in and get it done, although he certainly doesn’t have the tools that Palmer had; how McKnight is supposed to step into the shoes of Bush and get it done, etc.).

Yes, had KD remained in charge, I would have predicted only 6 wins, if not fewer. However, for a guy entering his sixth year in charge at UCLA, I would have expected at least 9 wins. Perhaps you’ll disagree (and that’s fine with me), but in my mind, there’s a major difference between what I predict will happen and what my expectations are for a program.

I think what maybe isn’t making my point really clear is that my expectations for KD’s sixth season were not made at the beginning of that sixth season, but rather at the beginning of his tenure in Westwood. Predictions come year-in and year-out, but for me at least, expectations are established at the beginning. I expected that by year six, KD would be make us a perenial contender for at least the Pac-10 and Rose Bowl.

Yes, I would have still predicted six wins or less had KD remained in charge. But he would have been failing what my expectations of him and his program by this point in time.

CRN, on the other hand, I expect the same of him by his sixth year. I expect a 10 win season in year six of the CRN era. In a few years, if we’re devestated by injuries, I may predict fewer than 10 wins, but that won’t change what my expectation of the man and his program will be.

That being said, I don’t think my expectations were inflated or unreasonable. I expected steady progress year in and year out. I think the major problem we’re having is that what I actually predict will happen this season and what I expected from this program at this point in time under KD are different.

I hope that clears it up.

by norcald503 on Jul 12, 2008 7:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fair enough

Previous post got deleted because I’m an asshole, but main point was, as I stated below in another comment, we’re using two different definitions of expect. I’m using it like this: I expect when I turn on the faucet, water will come out. People here seem to use it as: I expect when I turn on the faucet, wine will come out. It’d be nice, but it doesn’t resemble reality.
Expectations are not made in a vaccuum, at least I don’t think so. You’ve gotta take everything into account. There’s never a difference between an expectation and a prediction unless you provide conditions. “I expect to win nine games if Dorrell somehow learns to coach, but since he’s a wooden-headed ninny, I predict six wins.” If you say “I expect nine wins” it’s both an expectation and a prediction, at least in my little world. But ok, I get what you’re saying anyway, Just disagree.

And congrats on finishing law school. I hear it’s a bitch.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 8:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To answer...

I guess I need to make a couple of points to bring you from where you’re standing to where I’m standing.

First, I want to preface it by saying I think Nestor and the "old school" BN crew do a great job here. If not for their hard work, I wouldn’t have kept coming here to read all the good stuff written here. Now, that said, I’m not a member of the BN "old school." I’m relatively new here. I’ve been reading for a while (the product of searching the interwebs while stuck in boring law school classes), but only starting posting until recently. So I don’t think my opinions/expectations/predictions can be simply written off as part of the "old school" order you speak of.

Second, as for my personal misgivings about the DB, that is born of the typical antagonism I saw between the DB and USAC (myself being a CAC guy). Who is right when it comes to those issues is a subject that would take too long to debate in this thread (although I’m more than willing to explain my POV on the DB as a former USAC’er if you’re willing to listen sometime). And thank you re: law school . . . it is a bitch.

Now, to the meat of where we’re not seeing eye-to-eye: I agree with you, in that expectations are not made in a vacuum and have to be supported with facts (or else, as you astutely pointed out, it’s nothing but blind hope).

My expectations for KD going into his first year weren’t based on blind hope. My thought process was something to the effect (I can’t be 100% on exactly what I thought, just the general process of how it played out in my head) of: (i) this KD guy is a former Shanahan assistant, so I figured he had some good training under MIke; (ii) this is UCLA, located on a beautiful campus in a recruiting hot spot, so the talent should be there; (iii) Toledo got it done and he was kind of a moron; (iv) the early news that KD was following MJD during his DLS days (being a Bay Area guy, I’ve known about MJD since he was running over destroying my friends on the high school football field).

So, with those facts in mind, I figured a guy taking the reigns at a major program like UCLA should, at first, struggle, but slowly, year-in and year-out make progress. When I made my expectations at KD’s jump, I figured that the talent would be here, that he wasn’t some green never-coached-nowhere-but-some-Division II-craphole, but a guy who came from Shanahan’s system (which hasn’t been spectacular, but had consistently gotten it done year-in and year-out, always with a new RB in the backfield). So, I don’t think my expectations were made in a vacuum, but were rather based on some general facts that are reasonable for a program like UCLA.

Likewise, this year, I am basing my long-term expectations of CRN’s program on the following facts: (i) CRN has previous head-coaching experience, (ii) he’s won the Pac-10 and been to the Rose Bowl before, at Washington nonetheless, (iii) this is UCLA for Christ’s sake and the talent should be here since, again, our campus is amazing, we’re in sunny LA, and SoCal is a talent rich location, (iv) CRN is a bit older and wiser now, and thus, should have learned his lesson from what happened at Colorado and Washington.

Finally, I agree with Nestor below. We should expect to beat U$C every year. Accepting playing second-fiddle to them because they’ve had a string of recent success is, in my opinion, horseshit. We can, have, and should be able to take them on every year. I want my head coach to believe that. I want my players to believe that. I want every Bruin to believe that.

There’s absolutely no reason to think this team, for all of it’s problems and holes, can’t beat U$C this year. It’s a rivalry game. It’s crazy. Anything can happen.

by norcald503 on Jul 12, 2008 8:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK

We’re good now. I just wasn’t as optimistic about Dorrell, and I like your reasoning anyway. But like you said, those were mostly expectations from the start of his career. I was objecting to expectations that were made in, I think, April of 2006 for the 2006 season. With the information from Dorrell’s first three years at hand, I’d figure expectations would have to be dumbed down from where they were in the halcyon days of 2003. That’s mostly what I meant by the “in a vaccuum” thing.

As for the DB/USAC thing, I thankfully did not have to deal with that much being in sports. But I’d like to hear your take on the DB anyway. Sounds like a funny one.

And yeah, on the SC thing. That was a bad take on my part.

By the way, I laughed out loud at the Toledo being a moron thing. He was basically the retarded assistant who kept us from getting Neuheisel version 1.0 as head coach.

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 8:19 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's good

I wasn’t around BN in April 2006, but if I had, and if I made predictions for the 2006 season, they would have been just that: predictions, not expectations.

For me, expectations are the rubric by which I grade the program over a coach’s entire tenure. Predictions are what I think is going to happen that particular season based on the facts at hand.

For example, when CBH was hired, I expected him to rebuild our program like he did at Pitt. I expected him to take us to the tournament consistently. I expected he would get us to the Elite Eight by JF and AA’s junior or senior seasons.

Thus, as I see it, CBH has exceeded my expectations of where our program would be at this point in time. However, going into next season, while my expectations are based on what I expected from the jump, I predict he will again exceed those expectations and get us into the Final Four again.

As for KD, I was pretty optimistic when he got hired. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and, since Shanahan is a Bill Walsh acolyte (and being a Niners fan who grew up during the Montana-Rice-Young days, that meant a lot ot me). Thus, I gave KD a few bonus points since he was technically coming out of the (very large) Bill Walsh coaching family tree (although rather removed from Bill himself).

As thing turned out, my optimism was not well-founded. KD, as we can agree, was a major disappointment and our program suffered a great deal because of him.

As for my reasons for not being a big fan of the DB, it would take too long to explain it here, but it is based on (i) the ridiculous amount the DB would charge for advertising space, (ii) how favored groups/programs/etc. had ads placed in select locations (i.e. near the crossword) and the disfavored had its ads (which cost the same regardless of which page it was on) placed in places where far fewer people would look, (iii) the obvious anti-USAC bias in the reporting by the DB (at least when I was at UCLA), and (iv) the way “news” was covered by the DB (such as, the story of a mountain lion sighting in Malibu got coverage, but a free night-time concert in Bruin Plaza featuring the Roots that had Bruins overflowing the plaza (as in, the plaza was full, every overhang on Ashe, Ackerman, and the Wooden center was packed with on-lookers, etc.) was somehow left out of the DB, as if such an event never happened.

This may not be your fault and the DB may have been totally different in your time there (as one would expect with the changes in the student staff over time), but when I was there, the way it was run felt very Fox News “on-message” like. But, again, that’s just my opinion.

by norcald503 on Jul 12, 2008 8:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The illogic of your argument hurts my head

You would have us expect the same (or better) result with CRN at the helm this year as we would with KD in charge.

You want to compare our expectations for CRN’s first year to those we would have had for KD’s sixth year. The failure to see the illogic in that alone astounds me. If you’re a fellow Bruin, then I am amazed. Either you weren’t paying attention in class or, you are the rare example of a Bruin who just does not understand simple logic.

We would have expected a lot from KD this year, yes. But it was KD’s sixth year, with his guys, his system, his program. Yes we would demand at least 9 wins.

But, I guarantee by CRN’s sixth year, I’m expecting the man to bring us to the Rose Bowl. I’m expecting the Bruins to be 1st or 2nd in the Pac-10 year-in and year-out by the fourth, fifth, and sixth years of the CRN regime. By that time, CRN will have set up his system and brought in his recruits.

If anything, when you compare what we would have expected from KD this year to what we will expect from CRN in his sixth year, you’ll see that we are expecting MUCH MORE from CRN than we were from KD.

I just don’t understand how some people cannot understand something so bloody damn simple.

by norcald503 on Jul 11, 2008 8:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is also forgetting facts

Thanks to everyone here for already shredding Wood’s arguments. But I want to offer up few more salient facts. Let’s start with what he wrote:

If you honestly expected that 2006 team to win 9 games after losing its starting quarterback (Drew Olson), best receiver (Marcedes Lewis) best running back (Mo Drew), and only quality lineman (Mike McCloskey) then you would almost certainly have to expect this year’s team to win at least 8 or 9 games. Not because they actually should win 8 or 9 games, but because you’re already set the tone for expectations here on bruinsnation.

He brings up how our offensive line had lost McCloskey. But he skips the detail about how despite the loss of McCloskey we had solid depth at OL as we documented here and here.

He mentions the loss of Marcedes while ignoring how still we were locked and loaded at our WR/TE spots as we documented here.

And while the running game lost MJD, we had more than enough options to field a serviceable running attack.

Also let’s take a look at our actual expectations. We expected 9 wins based on fairly easy nonconference schedule featuring Utah, Rice and a mediocre Notre Dame team.

That year we did finish with 7 regular season wins and 5 losses which included unforgivable losses against Washington and Notre Dame (games we blew early lead) and a humiliating home loss against Washington State. Then there was the debacle against Florida State. So looking our expectations was more than reasonable.

Could it be David Woods is a little bitter? After all we have called out former “Senior Staff Writer” for the Daily Bruin sports section as a Plaschke In Training for ignorant and baseless criticism of Coach Howland.

It took David and most of his DB colleagues more than 4 years to recognize publicly that Dorrell was not working out as the UCLA head coach. Yet he has the gumption to come out here and question our credibility on this topic. Amusing.

by Nestor on Jul 12, 2008 9:20 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also forgot to counter

Woods argument about the loss of Drew Olson. While we lost Olson, we were gaining the more heralded and more intensely recruited NPOY Ben Olson. BO was supposed to be KD’s savior and he was billed as such. So it was on KD for failure to develop BO. In addition when BO went down we had PC ready to step up who was proven to be a good option. He certainly had the tools to be a Wayne Cook like QB who could have been developed as an effective game manager. And he showed his potential in 13-9. Yet it was KD and his coaching staff’s inept game calling that cost us sure wins against Washington, Notre Dame and Florida State as mentioned above. So once again our 9 win expectations looked more than reasonable (if not conservative) in KD’s 4th season at UCLA.

by Nestor on Jul 12, 2008 9:25 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When I saw this loser's name in the comments

I immediately started looking for that thread. Every time his name is mentioned on BN, it is because he has said yet another stupid thing, and this time is no exception. Way to be incompetent at your job, David. Like I said in the Plascke in Training post linked above: Find A New Career.

by Tydides on Jul 12, 2008 10:22 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's comical

The guy wasted no time attacking Howland’s coaching decision (8 mins after that dreaded Stanford game featuring that legendary BN thread where we all got “comfortable”) yet he was completely mum re. KD’s coaching following that prototypical KD loss v. Washington in that same school year (06-07).

by Nestor on Jul 12, 2008 10:32 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They did the job too well

norcal and 66 got to him first. Otherwise, this would have been a throwback to the “old days” of post shredding. I still remember the massive headache that ensued after the trolls came out following ATV’s Pick 6 of Cal last year. I must have logged at least 30 posts just from blasting trolls like David, and this was after quite a few beers.

The sad thing isn’t so much that folks like David don’t “get it”, or that they stick to their ill-conceived notions to the bitter end despite evidence to the contrary. It’s that they can’t even make their arguments strong enough to generate a real discussion, so they decide to flamebait instead. I will say that his tactics do not surprise me, because that’s generally what happens when the position you take is inherently flawed.

by Tydides on Jul 12, 2008 10:44 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hold on a second.

I can’t follow all of this. Who is this “KD” person? Is it Kob Doledo? He was a pretty good coach for a while. Or is it Kerry Donahue, who made a career out of timidity? I should point out that I have been in a football coma for the past five years, so help me a little here. As I understand the situation, we were one of those unfortunate schools who had no head football coach for five years. So I ask again, who is this KD guy?

But I agree that it is nice to go back to one’s BN roots, when people would drop by and take a position that is neither well thought out nor well expressed. Although it’s technically unfair to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed, sometimes it’s just fun to engage in full body, floor-length bayonet drill.

by Fox 71 on Jul 12, 2008 12:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey

Still hold that he was outcoached in that game. Shoulda gone small. But whatever, it was an opinion, and I was pissed about the game. Stanford’s a shithole. I think Howland is a golden god, but occasionally he, in my very humble assclowning (correct usage?) opinion, fucks up. You should thank me, btw. I was the first one to ask him about the Westbrook/Luc defensive matchups in the post game after the Memphis debacle. I think he wanted to eat me.

Problem with the KD stuff is I was a beat writer for football, not a columnist. Rest assured that if I had written columns, they would have been concerned, mostly, with calling for the man’s head. I love UCLA football and he damn near ruined the experience for me. He’s also a good guy, btw. And he likes his eggs fried over medium. Had a bet with my friend, I guessed scrambled and she got the field. I liked my odds, considering Dorrell.

I was actually in Washington for that game. Horrendous. Absolutely horrendous. Pretty easy to see it coming though. We should have been up way more, but we kept fucking kicking field goals.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Howland is not perfect

He has made his mistakes and we have criticized him for it. However, your criticisms for his coaching at that Stanford game was ignorant and baseless for reasons we detailed two years ago. We are not going renew that argument in this thread.

And I will give you one last warning. If you attack our integrity one more time without providing facts, you will be gone from here. Thanks.

by Nestor on Jul 12, 2008 7:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I Had No Idea Who He Was -- Still Don't

I almost didn’t respond. Posts like this are so trite and hackneyed. They are not worthy of response. But, when people attack our moderators, I feel we have a responsibility to reply.

I may create some numbered responses. Then, all I’ll have to do is reply with ”#1.” and leave it up to the original poster to do the research to find out what it means.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Jul 12, 2008 1:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I only remember

because as N said, this is a guy who attacked CBH for not being “flexible” enough in a single regular season loss, and yet was a key apologist for the poster boy of inflexibility over the course of five years.

Then he comes on and accuses us, US, of applying a double standard. The sad thing is that I doubt he sees his own blatant hypocrisy. We have taken the MSM to task again and again over the years here, and occasionally that criticism spills over to our own campus paper as well. In the past, if we had something negative to say about the DB, there was a very good chance that Woods was the reason.

by Tydides on Jul 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When

was I an apologist for Karl Dorrell? Seriously. Find a time. Anywhere. I was a beat writer for two years (so ostensibly, I couldn’t offer opinions in my writing). If I had been able to, they would not been been apologia.

And Howland, for what its worth, is not a flexible guy. Part of why he is a great coach, and part of why we’ve lost a few games here and there. We employed the same strategy two years in a row against Florida and got creamed both times. Maybe the second time we should have tried something different? I don’t really know, but it might have been worth a shot at least. Against Memphis, he didn’t make the proper defensive adjustments because he (inflexibly) kept Collison in the game on Rose. Again, not saying Howland is a bad coach- just saying there are areas where he’s not perfect. And that lack of flexibilty helps to instill that defensive toughness that we all know and love. So I’ll take it. But, as a free thinking red blooded steak-eating American, I’ll also bitch and moan about it if it doesn’t work out sometimes.

And my opinions and writing on these two individuals do not constitute a double standard. To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I don’t believe those words mean what you think they mean.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's hilarious how you think

that by continuously attacking others (the Ad Hominem shield you’re so fond of using) you think you can skate by not answering the questions that have been raised about your legitimacy. You are the one on trial here, because you have demonstrated no ability to put together a decent analysis on anything without contradicting yourself.

Apparently you do not see that your attack on BN for not being “fair” to KD despite the fact that we have already been validated on this point is an apologist stance. You asked for one time. You got it.

From Wikipedia:

Today the term “apologist” is colloquially applied in a general manner to include groups and individuals systematically promoting causes, justifying orthodoxies, or denying certain events, even of crimes. Apologists have been characterized as being deceptive, or “whitewashing” their cause, primarily through omission of negative facts (selective perception) and exaggeration of positive ones, techniques of classical rhetoric. When used in this context, the term often has a pejorative meaning.

You would have us believe that you aren’t trying to discredit the people who have written here extensively? Is this not you “systematically promoting” your cause? Are you not “being deceptive” and “whitewashing” KD’s actual record in an attempt to make the expectations laid out seem unfair?

It’s too bad, but it looks like those words do not mean what YOU think they mean. How embarrassing for you.

by Tydides on Jul 12, 2008 7:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

Dorrell was a mediocre coach who should have a) never been hired and b) been fired after losing to SC 66-19. Was deceived once into thinking he was going to be ok after we beat SC 13-9, but I blame that on the postgame euphoria.

I think you guys were unfair in your expectations, but overall, I agreed with the message that he should be fired. Just didn’t like the tactics you used. That’s all I was trying to get across.

And I haven’t called you a name once, nor resorted to sticks and/or stones. Just disagreed with your takes, and your usage of the term “double standard” in regard to my takes on Howland and Dorrell. I don’t think it applies, but I guess we can disagree there too.

Hope that clears it up some.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 8:00 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Spare me

You don’t need to call someone names to try to undermine their credibility.

It doesn’t matter that you think the expectations were unfair. If you have lower aspirations for our football program, then that’s fine. This probably isn’t the place for you. I thought our program could do better, and thankfully, Mr. Guerrero agrees. I don’t even know what these “tactics” are that you’re talking about. Our activity was confined to an internet website. If you’re talking about ads in the DB, you’re looking for DumpDorrell.com. That’s a separate entity, although obviously we agreed with most of what they had to say.

If you agree that KD was mediocre, then what are we really arguing about? Expectations have to do with aspirations, and I have no desire to push my aspirations for this program onto anyone else. It’s a personal thing. Some couldn’t care less about winning so long as they get to hang out at the Rose Bowl every autumn. So what is it? That we decided to call a spade a spade and talk about KD’s faults in brutally honest terms? Look around. This is a blog. Blaming a blog for its denizens making their opinions known is like blaming a stove for making your food too hot.

by Tydides on Jul 12, 2008 8:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wasn't

ever arguing about Dorrell being a good or bad coach. Just thought the expectations from previous years were inflated, and this year’s seems more reasonable. Thought it was peculiar, so I commented. And in a metaphysical sense, you’re right, my opinion doesn’t really matter. But I still like to let it out occasionally. Like a fart, you might say. Sometimes it even smells as badly.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 8:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haha

Whoever said I wanted to be a journalist? It was just a good way to get to go to away games for free.

Don’t get so bent out of shape man. The crazy thing is, I agreed wholeheartedly with you guys that Dorrell was not a good coach (shit, I wanted him fired after we beat Illinois 6-3 in 2003) but the way you guys went about setting crazy expectations, and the weird sort of pathology where Dorrell was everything-that-was-bad and Howland is everything-that-is-good, kind of rubs me funny. And not in a sexual way.

Dorrell wasn’t a good coach, but he had his moments. In 06, at the SC game where he led that jumping thing with the crowd of players- that was pretty cool right? And Howland, a phenomenal coach, has had his gaffes. Memphis, for example.

Just seems like you guys are very concerned with staying absolutely on-message. Very agenda-driven. And that seems weird.

BTW, if you can think of a new career for me, I’d appreciate it. Preferably something that will keep me from engaging in assclownery.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Solid depth at O-line?

Did you even read that depth chart? Robert Chai was the starting center! The man who spent most of his career at UCLA staring either at the sky or a defensive lineman’s junk from a supine position.

Our receivers were fine but not spectacular. No real game breakers, and didn’t we lose Craig Bragg too? Or was that the year before? Can’t remember. But if you remember watching the games from 05, Marcedes and Mo-Drew making ridiculous plays were the only reason we won 10 games. Any money Drew Olson makes or has made in the NFL should be doled out evenly to those two. Losing those two, plus a serviceable senior quarterback, should have let you know that the team might take a hit in the win column.

And Chris Markey wasn’t a spectacular running back. Very serviceable (really good guy too, btw) but nothing special.

You predicted us beating SC. That wasn’t reasonable. It happened, but it wasn’t reasonable. And my bitchass was taking the LSAT that morning and didn’t even make it to the Rose Bowl (worst decision of my life, right up there with the time I tried to leapfrog a parking meter). We are not now, nor have we been in the last five or six years, as good as SC. Pretending otherwise, expecting otherwise, predicting otherwise, is a little unreasonable.

Never bitter, Nestor old buddy. Both of those threads were funny. Being called an assclown never fails to bring a smile to my face.

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So you are here to flame ...

We did have decent depth at OL going into that season. Chai was our starting center and he didn’t turn out to be a good one. But in that it should have been the coaches’ responsibility to find another option. And last time I checked it wasn’t Chai’s fault for losing the games against Washington, Notre Dame and FSU.

No one argued Markey to be a spectacular RB. However, he was serviceable enough for coaches to put together a good running game. It shouldn’t take a “special” RB for a coach to put together a 9 win season in his 4th year at UCLA. Same goes for all of WRs.

Yes, MJD and Drew Olson were responsible for few miracle wins in that mirage of 10 win season. However, losing them didn’t let KD off the hook to come up with at least a 9 win season given the easy schedule and serviceable talent he had on his roster.

And expecting a UCLA team to beat Southern Cal will always be reasonable. For you to argue otherwise shows you really don’t have a grasp on the history of our rivalry in which many of our teams had knocked off more talented Southern Cal teams on our home turf.

Then again you wrote for a student news paper that celebrated a close loss against the Trojans as some kind of accomplishment. So its no wonder you don’t have any sense of perspective on what kind of expectations we should have for UCLA football.

Lastly, consider this as your only warning. If you are here to just to flame bait (as you have done given your history of commenting on BN), insulting moderators of this community, you will be gone. Like I said consider it as your last warning … and of course go find another venue to lodge ignorant criticisms of Ben Howland.

by Nestor on Jul 12, 2008 7:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not even remotely flaming

Just disagreeing with you. Saw the thread and thought it was odd considering the old school bruinsnation expectations posts.

I think we’re using two different definitions of the word “expect”. I expect to wake up tomorrow. I expect we will win about six games this year. I expect when I turn on the faucet, water will come out. These are things I can reasonably expect.

You’re using the word expect like this, I think: I expect when I turn on the faucet, wine will come out. It’d be nice, but it’s unreasonable. And that also is not a flame. Just trying to vividly make my point.

On the SC thing, ok, I can get behind that. After all, fuck SC.

I’m not gonna get into that terrible, terrible list again, but I had nothing to do with it. And in fact, I sat shell-shocked in the stands after that SC close-loss while everyone around me was celebrating like we won the fucking Rose Bowl.

I don’t think there was decent depth on the line, as time has proven. Those guys, for the most part, were not very good and didn’t/haven’t gotten much better. But we can disagree there.

I’ve commented on two threads ever on bruinsnation. The first one was because you guys called out one of our writers for plagiarism, and this time because this expectations post drew my attention. Neither time was I flaming- just disagreeing.

And Howland is not God. Great, great coach with flaws. I’d take him over any other coach in the country. But he’s not perfect.

-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 7:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You were not just disagreeing

You were attacking our integrity questioning our honesty. If you are going to disagree that is fine. However, if you insult/attack any of us by questioning our character again, you will be gone from here.

by Nestor on Jul 12, 2008 7:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now

You’ve gone and hurt my feelings. And I don’t think any of you actually looked at the link I posted. It was regarding the 2006 season, not last season, and not this season. That year, we were not going to be good. There were a lot of reasons we were not going to be good (players gone, Dorrell was still the coach, etc.) These weren’t esoteric expectations Nestor was laying down. It was “I expect 9 wins and a win over SC”. The very reasonable expectations in this post I responded to, in light of those 2006 expectations, are kind of funny. Not funny ha-ha, but funny peculiar.

And I never paid attention in class. Never went actually. Took me only 5 years to finish a straight history major. Once failed two classes for not attending the finals because I was too hungover. But, appearances notwithstanding, I am a pretty bright guy; I bet I could count the change in your pocket really fast.

Cheers to Ad Hominem, that son of a bitch with no credibility
-Dave

by DavidWoods on Jul 12, 2008 6:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Coaches make comments to the media

that can influence expectations for the upcoming year. For instance, after the 2005 season Dorrell talked about how the program was on the right track, and that the 2006 squad would be his “best team yet” (sorry, I can’t find a link).

Now, I can’t speak for Nestor and others, but for myself, it seems reasonable that after a 10-2 season and all this talk from KD about going in the right direction and 2006 being his best team yet, that predictions for wins/losses and expectations of KD would be fairly high going into 2006.

by bornagainbruin on Jul 14, 2008 9:20 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fine

2 things:
1) I’m pretty sure it was the 07 season where he said it was his best team. I interviewed him in August, and he was pretty adamant about that. Coulda said it for 06, I guess too. Which leads to no. 2
2.) You should know better than to believe what coaches say to the media. But you and I could both see that Robert Chai was the starting center, that an unproven quarterback was under center, that the two playmakers from the year before who almost singlehandedly (double-handedly?) won 10 games for us were gone, and that Karl Dorrell was still the head coach. I would think those factors would influence expectations as well.
But 3) What do I know?

by DavidWoods on Jul 14, 2008 2:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

KD used the "best team" phrase in 2006 too

KD:

This is my best team in terms of having a little more grit. We’re mentally and physically tougher. The inexperience factor is a big issue, but it’s probably the most spread out in terms of talent. We’re deeper in some areas than we have been.

KD didn’t inspire any confidence. That didn’t mean he could escape reasonable expectations people here imposed on a head coach in his fourth year, who by his own admission had enough talent in the team and the schedule was set up well enough for a 9 win season.

by bluestreet on Jul 16, 2008 2:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My bad

That was three things wasn’t it?

by DavidWoods on Jul 14, 2008 2:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I second that 66

If KD was still around, we would have to deal with the same issues this upcoming season that CRN faces (depleted O-Line, QB issues, etc). The difference for me this year is that I’m actually excited to watch this team play regardless of the predictions. At least I feel like our program is moving forward (and they haven’t even played one game yet). It has been a while since I last felt that way about our Bruin football team. It’s not about expectations, it’s about the sense of team progress and development. It’s about hope. During the KD era, I felt little to none of this. We were always stuck in the proverbial “turning the corner” or “still learning” mode. With one hire (actually two with Norm Chow), I have some of that hope again for our squad.

by Kerckhoff405 on Jul 11, 2008 7:29 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Expected Optomism

Most people would expect a fan blog to be overly optimistic about their team. I was not here in 2006 to make a comment on that forecast. But I think everyone (certainly me) felt kind of burned by the 2007 season forecast by professional writers that the Bruins would finish 12th (or somehthing close to that ) based, it seemed, simply on so many return starters (shallow analysis.) Injuries notwithstanding the Bruins played errratically (again) and I concluded (again) that a coaching change was in order. Now I realize I was not alone in that opinion.

I think that the polls we have taken are realistic. I like that. And I agree with Kerckoff 405 that regardless of how many games the Bruins win – it is a team that is relentlessly on the rise – with progess already apparent. And that is going to make it a great season. And I hope for recruits who want to make it a great team – not just those looking to be assured of being on a great team. So recruits who are confident in their own skills – well, put your hat in the ring.

by northbaybruin on Jul 11, 2008 8:08 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

Kerckhoff is right on the button. Any UCLA team, regardless of sport should compete at the highest level with spirit and determination, regardless of talent (coaching or Athlete). Like our 13-9 win over southern cal. And even in defeat @ Notre Dame. I wanted to jump off the top of my building immediately after, but when I calmed down the next day, I was very proud of the heart that was displayed on the field that afternoon. This season, just like every season that I have followed my whole life, I believe we can beat anyone we play. Those special four letter’s that we carry with us in our heart’s and on our sleeves, they give us hope and purpose. There’s nothing like being at the Rose Bowl on a Saturday morning waking up to an 8 clap. I can’t wait…

Go Bruins!

DBalter

by westwood12003 on Jul 11, 2008 11:07 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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