Bruins Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Race to the BCS: rankings, in-game scores & blogs Bar-right-arrows



European Basketball-Take another look

Weeks ago there was a discussion about Jennings going to Europe instead of Arizona.  Now there's talk of Josh Childress jumping.  This could turn into a NBA versus ABA war and at the front of it could be the high school seniors.  What brought the ABA to prominence was the signing of Dr. J, Malone and others because of shortcomings in the NBA rules.  Moses was a high schooler who could not play in the NBA.  There's a lot of money in Europe and a lot of fan support.  I am not talking about mass exodus, but rather 10 to 15 significant players.  Think of the possible impact.

I am not a big fan of one and done.  If a player has a choice of team play or a multi-million dollar contract, what's his choice?  Think about Bayless at Arizona and why O'Neill and his patient offense and strong defense didn't work.  We were lucky with K-Love, now look at Sidney, Stephenson and the 2009 class and what they think.    BH going after Lane who is not one and done material shows that you've got to think ahead.  Schools that want one and dones like SC could lose Gibson and DeRozen next year and not pick up a one and done kid, so what happens?  Everything falls apart.

The ability to choose where you want to play is good and it takes away total control from Stern and the NBA.  Bring back solid rules for college basketball, which use to be the only pure form of basketball being played.  We'll always be strong and will get stronger under BH's structure.

 

Go Bruins!!!

 

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

0 recs | Comment 12 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Logically flawed

I don’t see how Josh Childress, a guy who was nowhere close to being a one-and-done in his time at Stanfurd and who has been nothing but a solid role player in the NBA, in any way is relevant to Jennings jumping to Europe.

Guys go to Europe because they don’t make it in the NBA. Childress is a nice piece, but he’ll never be a big-time guy. He’ll never be a franchise player and, in all likelihood, he’ll be just another journeyman. Him looking at Greece as an option is, in no way, similar to what Jennings did.

Jennings ran away because he couldn’t make the grades here in the States. I guarantee DeRozen, Jrue, and the rest of 2009’s one-and-done type guys will be playing college ball here. Jennings is not the start of some new trend. He’s a kid who couldn’t get into Arizona and, rather than play at some JC for a year, went to Europe out of desperation.

Childress is looking at Greece, in part because Greek teams are willing to pay top dollar for a guy who was nothing more than an NBA role player. It’s Josh Childress (7.1 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.6 apg), for crying out loud.

Who will the NBA lose next? Bobby Jackson? Luke Walton? Brevin Knight? Kelenna Azubuike?

Oh no! Imagine the implications of losing these guys to Europe! What will David Stern and the NBA do without them?!

I don’t like one-and-done either, but not every one-and-done guy is an idiot like Jennings or a hype-magnet looking to brand himself like Mayo. Jrue is a one-and-done guy. And he chose to come to UCLA because he knows that CBH will help him win and that winning within a team-first, defense-oriented game is the best way to punch your ticket to the NBA. Ask RW how that turned out for him. You bring up Bayless and O’Neill’s slower offense, but the simple fact is, as I’ve pointed out before, that Bayless is not as good of a player as Mayo and RW and deserved to be drafted below them. The numbers didn’t lie.

Childress and Jennings couldn’t hold Dr. J’s jock. Not now. Not ever. To even make that comparison is a joke. Europe has a lot of great leagues but it will never rival the NBA like the ABA did. I’m not going to re-hash all the reasons I laid out on this topic before. There’s a reason their top players keep jumping to the NBA.

The money is better, the possibility for exposure and endorsements much higher here. The NBA has an absolute stranglehold on professional basketball in this country. That grip is not going to loosen up and as long as the NBA offers higher wages and better exposure, then guys will always prefer the NBA to Europe.

Let’s be honest: Europe is for guys who can’t cut it in the NBA. That’s why, for as much as I love them as Bruins, Dijon, Ced, and Brian Morrison ended up (or will end up) playing in Europe.

by norcald503 on Jul 22, 2008 11:56 AM PDT   0 recs

Try this angle..

Norcald: It’s good to hear from you.

First of all, have you ever played with or coached a “gunner” who only thought of himself? Have you ever watched an AAU game with fans yelling for their kid to shoot the ball everytime he gets it? These are the Jennings and Bayliss of the world. My point about Bayless had nothing to do with Jrue or RW, it had to do with his “me first attitude at Arizona” and how this is representative of one and done players. RW was never considered a one and done. O’Neill was trying to put in a system and he’s got a loose cannon. BUT, if you think, well if I shoot and shoot and average 18 points a game versus play team ball and average 12, how much is the difference in pay? The system breeds this mentality. Also, think OJ Mayo and his 20 shots per game.

My NBA/ABA thoughts have to do with the fundamental of competition/free enterprise. Right now, NBA players have only one choice and until there’s another choice, they have to go by the NBA rules. This is not about Childress being compared to Dr. J, and whether he’s good or not, it’s about competition. The Euro League provides competition for the benefit of the players. But, what we really do need is a stronger and better structured D-League. Jennings is not alone as to academics and college, so kids that don’t want to go to school should have a place to play while tuning themselves for the NBA. It’s their daily job, practice and play and get paid $30,000 a year (like Mayo) plus room and board. Scouts and officials can watch the player play against good competition. Players will be predominately from the area so there is continuing local following. The talent level would fit between college and the pros and it cannot resemble “And 1 Tour”. Give me your suggestion.

GO BRUINS!!!

by whittier71 on Jul 22, 2008 5:30 PM PDT   0 recs

Again, flawed logic

As to your first point, yes, I’ve played with guys who are “me first” kind of guys. They exist in every sport and every level. I think your initial post made a broad generalization of “one-and-done” players, that, for the most part, they are guys who are “me first, need to put up big numbers, I’m the star” kind of players. Your line of thought assumes all of the one-and-done guys are like Mayo, Bayless, and Jennings.

Simply put, I don’t think that’s true. K-Love was able to fit himself into the team game. Jrue chose UCLA, when, by all acounts, he could have gone anywhere to play his year of college ball. It’s no secret CBH is a team-first, defense-first kind of guy. It’s well known that if you don’t play defense at UCLA, you don’t play period. Ask Stanback. Yet, Jrue and Bobo Morgan both chose UCLA.

Jrue will play within CBH’s system or he won’t play. And he’ll still be a lottery pick. Putting up big numbers and being a lottery pick are not mutually exclusive. Again, look at RW. His season numbers were lower than Mayo, Augustin, and Bayless, IIRC. And yet, except for Mayo, he was taken ahead of them in the draft. GMs don’t draft guys based on college numbers alone, so that is, IMO, a flaw in your logic. RW played the team game and got a pretty impressive pay-day.

Adam Morrison, J.J. Reddick, and Gerry McNamara put up big numbers in college. And on the next level? They suck.

As for your examples of Bayless, Jennings, O’Neill, and the Mildcats: those problems of meshing those two guys to Arizona isn’t a by-product of the one-and-done system. It’s the product of Lute bringing in guys with attitude problems and a me first attitude. There’s a fundamental difference between CBH recruits and Lute recruits. Our guys are willing to sacrifice their personal glory for the team, whereas Lute’s guys are all about showcasing themselves. And we have just as many one-and-done types as Arizona does/did, so it’s not like these one-and-done kids are flocking to just the places where the coaches will let them do what they want.

As for your second point, I again disagree with you. The European leagues are not competition to the NBA’s grip on elite talent. European leagues are, far and away, second-tier compared to the NBA. This is not, as you alluded to in your initial post, an NBA-ABA type rivalry for talent. The fact remains is that the best talent goes to the NBA and the guys who couldn’t make it in the NBA go to Europe (just as in football, if you can’t make it in the NFL, you go to the CFL). Europe only lures away role players from the NBA and only because European leagues will pay top dollar to NBA role players. Europe will never be able to pry away elite talent from the NBA. Can’t ever see Kobe playing for Barcelona. Won’t happen now. Won’t happen ever.

Finally, as to making fundamental changes, I do agree with you there. The D-League needs to be completely re-vamped into a full-blown minor league system. The best system for the players (and for maintaining the integrity of student-athletics that Fox and ‘66 have mentioned) is the system used for college baseball. Guys get a choice coming out of HS: accept the scholarship and spend at least 3 years in college or go straight into the minor leagues and work your way up to the big show.

It works for baseball. I see no reason why it couldn’t work for basketball in this country. The one obstacle to this, of course, is the NCAA. There’s a reason college baseball isn’t a major revenue sport and why college basketball and football are. The former loses most of the elite talent to the minor league farm system while the latter two are a glorified farm system for the NBA and NFL. The NCAA isn’t going to give up that cash cow without a fight, so be prepared.

by norcald503 on Jul 22, 2008 6:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Per the WWL

Here’s a list of guys who have left the NBA for Europe this offseason:

Primoz Brezec (Raptors) – Virtus Roma (Italy)
Josh Childress (Hawk) – Olympiakos (Greece)
Carlos Delfino (Raptors) – Khimki BC (Russia)
Juan Carlos Navarro (Grizzlies) – FC Barcelona (Spain)
Bostjan Nachbar (Nets) – Dynamo Moscow (Russia)

All five guys are role players. Guys who come off the bench and contribute a bit. All, except Childress, are Europeans returning home, most likely because they never made it big in the NBA and can get paid better there than here.

It’s certainly not the “10-15 significant players” Whitter forecasted would jump the pond. Beside only being 5 of them, none of them are significant. They’re all journeymen role players who come off the bench and contribute. I don’t think any GM, in private, would claim these guys are “significant” parts of their franchise.

So, with that said, I’m not too concerned about the NBA losing top-flight talent to Europe. Europe is not going to be the solution to the flaws with the one-and-done rule.

Finally, Whitter, you claimed that in Europe there would be “a lot of fan support.” I don’t know how familar you are with European sporting culture, but over there, basketball gets the same fan support that soccer gets here in the States. Basically, basketball in Europe is a second-tier sport. In Europe, soccer reigns supreme. There is nothing even close to second. The UEFA Champions League Final is their Super Bowl, World Series, and NBA Finals all rolled into one. It’s epic.

Soccer is a bloodsport in Europe. Hooliganism is still strong. I don’t condone it, but there’s nothing even remotely close to the kind of crazed loyalty you’ll find among hardcore fans of FC Barcelona, AS Roma, AC Milan, Liverpool, or Man Utd over on this side of the pond.

Look at the list of basketball clubs those 5 guys are going to. The names should look familar to the casual American soccer fan. It’s because big clubs, like Barca, encompass many sports, but the number one sport is, and always will be, the beautiful game.

So, sure there’s some nice fan support in Europe, but there’s also some nice fan support for the LA Galaxy or the Columbus Crew. If you’re going to talk about fan support, the NBA flat out owns the European leagues.

by norcald503 on Jul 23, 2008 12:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was with you until the last sentence

I still haven’t seen any reason to think that the ncaa gets income based on any particular school’s success, or based on TV ratings, or based on bowl games. The ncaa may well get revenue based on all those things, but my point is that I haven’t seen anything that shows how their funding is generated. I would like to know that, because taking action that would adversely affect the flow of funds to those folks would be a good thing, in my opinion.

I know for a fact that there are research whiz-kids inhabiting the BN. Can anyone find this stuff out and set me straight?

by Fox 71 on Jul 22, 2008 8:56 PM PDT   0 recs

NCAA Revenue

Fox,

While the connection between U$C’s success and any revenue the NCAA may draw from it hasn’t been fleshed out, the NCAA does draw major revenue from both televised bowl games and the March Madness tournament (as in the television networks pay top dollar for the rights to televise BCS games and March Madness)

First, we have to remember the NCAA is a voluntary organization of member schools. With that in mind, revenue taken by the NCAA can come in a couple of forms, but usually either to the NCAA as a whole, or revenue distributed to the NCAA member schools.

As for March Madness, the NCAA distributes the revenue from the multi-billion dollar television contract to the Division I member schools with basketball programs based on a formula.

As for the BCS and bowl games in general, schools skip the NCAA HQ altogether, getting the money directly themselves through its contracts between the BCS and Fox for the broadcast rights.

Now, for some raw numbers, it looks like, the NCAA (or the member schools directly operating through BCS) had these contracts:

BCS (Orange Bowl, Sugar Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, Championship Game) (FOX): $80 million
BCS (Rose Bowl) (ABC): $30 million

BCS combined: $110 million

March Madness (as of CBS’s 1990 contract): $1 billion

I assume, of course, that the dollar value has gone up significantly since 1990, but I wasn’t able to find a dollar figure in my quick research.

Finally, as a point of comparison, I couldn’t find a dollar figure for the College World Series alone. But, in my quick research, I discovered ESPN paid a lump sum for 21 (that’s right, twenty-freakin’-one) championships, including both the Div. I Women’s Basketball tournament and the Div. I Men’s College World Series. That deal, over 11 years, was worth $200 million ($160M in raw money and $40M in promotions).

Basically, ESPN paid double the cost of the BCS bowl games for 21 championships. The BCS bowl games brought more than half of the same revenue that 21 championships bring in. March Madness? A cool billion in the NCAA and member school’s pockets.

I think it’s safe to say, based on this quick run-through of the numbers, that football and basketball (and the accompanying TV broadcasting rights) are major sources of revenue for the NCAA and its participating member schools (such as the BCS schools for football).

I hope this helps, at least a bit.

by norcald503 on Jul 22, 2008 9:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Another source

On ESPN’s lump sum contract for the 21 championships can be found here.

by norcald503 on Jul 22, 2008 9:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I forgot to mention

The NCAA link I provided in my first post on ESPN’s lump sum contract was a NCAA press release that didn’t have a dollar amount. The second link I provided was an article on BNET that identified the dollar amount.

Just thought to clear that up.

by norcald503 on Jul 22, 2008 9:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Impressive research (as usual)

I haven’t clicked on all the links, but it seems to me that there is no direct pipeline from any one Division 1 school to the NCAA. I think we can agree that if (when?) justsc basketball get’s laid out on the gurney to get the needle in the arm that the effect on revenue flowing into the ncaa will be insignificant at best.

I think the same thing is true about justsc’s football program. Sure, there are lots of people in LA on the trOJan bandwagon just now, and sure, there is a hard core cadre of trOJan fans who will stick by their alleged school no matter what. (I equate it with the anguished mother of the mass murderer who keeps saying that he really isn’t a bad person as he’s ushered into the aisle seat in the smoke house.) But if justsc football gets what it has so diligently earned, I still don’t see any significant impact on revenue going to the ncaa. Again, maybe there is an under the table pipeline from the trOJan boosters to the honchos at galactic supreme headquarters, but there’s nothing on top of the table that suggests any actual decrease in revenue.

And if there is, so what? The ncaa could simply take an additional .00001% of some of the various money pies out there being divided up and make up for justsc’s share.

The point of this mini-rant is that the absence of action on the part of the ncaa to enforce its own rules against justsc cannot be money-driven in my opinion. When I think of justsc I think of sleaze. When I think of the ncaa I think of myopia (thanks to whoever it was who put up the picture of Mr. Magoo). When you have an inept enforcement agency trying to police a sleazy spin machine, it produces a perfect opportunity for bribery. I am wearing my tinfoil hat so I can say this without a death beam hitting me from FBI headquarters. I think the money pipeline is going full blast from Figueroa to Indy.

by Fox 71 on Jul 23, 2008 7:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're correct

The flow of money I pointed out above is all about how the NCAA funnels the proceeds of the rather lucrative television deals it signs with CBS, FOX, ABC, etc. to the member schools, rather than money flowing from the schools to the NCAA.

However, I do suspect, and will look into it in detail when the bar is done (6 days until the big event), that the NCAA HQ gets a cut of the merchandising revenue. Every college-themed hat, shirt, sweatshirt, jacket, or basketball shorts I’ve ever bought has, somewhere on the tag, one of those nifty reflective NCAA authentic gear logo and something to the effect of “licensed by [NCAA].”

All the money from ticket sales, merchandising, etc. has to go somewhere. Again, it’s just suspicion, but the recent pattern of NCAA enforcement seems to indicate they hit programs no one really cares about (Indiana basketball) or they wait until the big dog has been replaced by another top dog (Oklahoma football), which if true, we’ll see U$C get the hammer in a few years when they are the decline and another big dog replaces them at the top of the football pecking order (as U$C and LSU did to Oklahoma).

At the end of the day, I suspect further inquiry will indicate the strongest proponent of the one-and-done rule is the NCAA since it forces elite talent to play college basketball for one season (imagine the number of jerseys some school would have sold if LeBron and Kobe had to play one season each).

The NCAA is underhanded and driven not by a desire to keep college athletics clean, but to turn a profit. That’s the nature of capitalism. Nothing wrong with that, but we should be prepared to deal with the NCAA on those terms rather than pretending it has altruistic motives (the same can be said for MLB, the NFL, and NBA: they need only maintain the semblance of order and fair play to maintain the attractiveness of their product, but at the end of the day, they are driven only by making money, which, is sad, especially for baseball).

by norcald503 on Jul 23, 2008 9:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're right, too

It’s easier for any organization to continue maintaining the status quo. The ncaa won’t do anything of substance because the momentum built up over the years is for the ncaa to do nothing of substance to any major school who doesn’t self-report or whatever it’s called. The collective ncaa can’t bring itself to the point where it realizes that the emperor is standing there in his underwear.

by Fox 71 on Jul 24, 2008 4:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ncaa

The NCAA is just as bad as the pro leagues in that they will not change their rules to differ from the pro league, thus keeping the money coming in somehow. But all this payola goes way back and will always happen at all schools and in business, we live in a corrupt world like it or not. There is allot of bribing and kissing going on to get ahead in this world and I am sure the NCAA has their hand out to all at anytime. So I hope more of the young better players say the heck with college and play in Europe, because if they do this the NBA and the NCAA will have to change.

by Bruin in the mesa on Jul 24, 2008 6:59 AM PDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bruins Nation, an unofficial daily online scrap book covering the greatest collegiate athletic program in the nation. GO BRUINS.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Lb___dm_in_nd_stadium_small
Musings from Maui
10113_big_small
Chris Joseph Wins Rhodes Scholarship
Telemachus_small
Culture Change

Recent FanPosts

10113_big_small
The Impact of Tonight's Game on Tournament Seeding
Telemachus_small
The Five Days of sUckiness: Thursday
Small
War of Words Between MJD and Lendale White
Ucla-med_small
Please Allow Me to Introduce Myself
Telemachus_small
The Five Days of sUckiness: Wednesday
Small
TV Spot- 5 Reasons Why UCLA will Beat USC
Bruinsnation_small
Fait accompli?
Small
To Punt or Not To Punt?
Telemachus_small
The Five Days of sUckiness: Tuesday
Ucla_small
USC Law Fools

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Managers

094_small Ajax

Bruinsnation_small Nestor

Menelaus2_small Menelaus

Arron_afflalo1_small Tydides

Brad_pitt_as_achilles_small Achilles

Small Meriones

Telemachus_small Telemachus

Small Odysseus

Blue_bellerophon_small Bellerophon

Authors

10113_big_small ryebreadraz

ad

Site Meter