Off Topic for most - Critical for Some: The Bar Exam

by Fox 71 on Jul 27, 2008 10:55 AM PDT

Bumped. Good luck to all BNers, Bruins next week. GO BRUINS. - N

Norcal mentioned that the Bar Exam is coming up soon. Normal people can just skip the rest of this. To you brothers and sisters who are going to take it, let me give my annual couple of do's and don'ts.

Do type the exam. I do know how many people hand-write them nowadays, but in my time (circa 1974) there were relatively few typists. I think a typed paper is easier to read and consequently more "likeable." There are stats which showed (again circa 1974) that typed exams got an average grade three points higher than hand-written exams.

Do spend time outlining the answer. The bar review guys said in my day that of the 52.5 minutes available for each question, you should spend 30 organizing and outlining your answer. It's hard to resist jumping right in and pounding the keyboard, but don't do it. An organized answer will come across better. I was told by a guy who graded the exams that they are looking to pass people, and the more organized the answer, the more likely he was to set your answer in the "passed" stack.

Do take pains to write clearly. All the stuff you learned in school about writing means something. Remember the IRAC method. Use it. Remember that short sentences are better than long sentences. Keep the sentence structure simple. Don't start a sentence with the word "because." Don't use passive voice. Use vivid verbs.

Don't be timid about citing cases. If you can cite a case, do so. If you remember a quote, quote it. (I still remember this one from Palsgraf (or at least I think it was Palsgraf) - "The harm that occurred is the very harm, the risk of which is what made the conduct unreasonable." If you know a particular case stands for a particular point but have blanked on the name, describe it. Maybe the reader will have the same sort of memory you do and you'll connect. But you're at least conveying the notion that you know there's a case on point that proves your point.

Don't forget to sleep. It's highly unlikely that you'll discover the magic pill that will reveal all the answers at 3:00 a.m. the night before the test. It's more likely that you'll get so mentally and physically tired that you'll be adversely affected come game time.

Don't panic. Be relaxed. Be smooth, like Joe DiMaggio rather than frenetic, Willie Mays. If you don't have a clue about what you're looking at, start with the basics that you learned in the bar review courses. If the question says to assume the California Probate Code applies, then it's a Wills question. If the word "Blackacre" is in it, it's pretty likely to be real property.

Do be confident. Believe me when I tell you that there are some very stupid lawyers out there, and they all have one thing in common. Despite their incredible stupidity, they passed the bar. Have faith in yourselves and your education and your basic smarts. You can do this. You've been a success at all your academic efforts. You got into UCLA. You scored high enough on the LSAT. You got admitted to law school. You graduated from law school. There will be people in that room who can't say all those things. There will be people in that room who have taken the test many times and are never going to pass it. You and the other smart, successful peole are not your competition - they are. And you can write a better exam than they can. How do I know this? All the stats in the world say so.

I'm sure other folks who have gone through it will have other thoughts for you. Good luck, brothers and sisters.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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I will tell you a quick story

My BarBri instructor told me to do this the first day of BarBri class.

She told me to do the following things:

1) Find the ClassBook from the previous year’s graduating class.

2) Go through the pictures and a put a big circle around the person you JUST KNEW was the dumbest person you ever met (and couldn’t figure just how in the world he or she ever got into law school) ... and YET PASSED the bar

3) Pin that picture on your wall … keep telling yourself there is no way you could fail the bar given how even the person referenced in point no. 2 passed it.

Worked like a charm.

GO BRUINS.

PS: Otherwise all of Fox’s ideas are on point . I didn’t type my essays though. Okay … I add one more thing. Don’t talk to anyone (at least during lunch breaks) about the exam. Just don’t do it. I heard later how it freaked lot of people out for no good reason.

by Nestor on Jul 24, 2008 5:35 AM PDT 0 recs

Yeah, avoid MIAS at all costs

Missed Issue Anxiey Syndrome is real.

by Ajax on Jul 27, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

Eat a banana

Right before the exam, and during. It’s all about the potassium. Trust me.

by tasser10 on Jul 24, 2008 7:15 AM PDT 0 recs

Two things...

I agree (as usual) with everything Fox said, except I didn’t type. I always felt that I had control over how many pencils I had but couldn’t guarantee that something wouldn’t go wrong by typing. Just my two cents. A couple of other thoughts:

First, I don’t know how Tasser10 was able to eat. I was in the bathroom with some shaky bodily systems along with a bunch of other freaked out people. Moral of that story: you know your body – if you think you’ll freak out then get to the location early (you should do this anyway) and scope out the bathrooms. Most likely, there will be a line.

Next, I agree with Nestor that you shouldn’t talk to anyone. If you do (which is almost unavoidable) then understand that you will hear people say that they aced one question or other because they are 100% certain that it involved some random point of law that they happen to be an expert on. You, of course, will not have seen that particular issue and you will freak out. In my case, I freaked out but ended up passing the exam, anyway. The “expert” failed. That said, ignore other people because you really have no idea who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t (the “expert” in my story was a graduate of a top-10 law school). Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of the bar exam is basic law. It’s highly unlikely that you will need to spend a large amount of time on obscure issues.

That’s it. Good luck!

by Moosen on Jul 24, 2008 7:38 AM PDT 0 recs

I didn't take the bar exam!

I took the GMAT and the MCAT. It worked both times…hardly comparable to the harrowing torture of the bar exam, but my comment was meant more as advice for any test-taker than anything specific for the bar exam.

by tasser10 on Jul 24, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up 0 recs

Thanks for the tips Fox

The Bar Exam is far too near – Tuesday is state essay day for VA; I believe California day 1 is the same.

In addition to your point that the bar examiners are looking to pass people, we (exam-takers) should keep in mind that if there is a question that seems to make no sense, which you never learned the underlying law for, many of our fellow exam-takers had the same problem. If a significant portion of exam takers whiff a question, the examiners will examine why that was the case, and may decide to give partial credit if there is a plausible answer that they missed in drafting the question. So, if we get confounded by a particular question, don’t let it affect the rest of the exam, and don’t dwell on it after the fact.

One of my law school/BarBri profs shared his story of the Bar Exam, in which he felt that he did so badly on the (Virginia) state portion of the exam that he checked out of his hotel and began to drive home, rather than go through what he felt would be the pointless administration of the MBE. Halfway home, he had a change of heart, thinking of taking the multistate as playing a lottery ticket for his bar passage and returned to Roanoke for day 2. He passed.

For those of us taking the exam next week, lets all be thankful for one thing: We are not applying for the Washington Bar. Apparently the person in charge of logistics for the Washington State Bar scheduled the convention center where the exam is administered for the wrong week! Thanks to that slip up, and resulting scheduling difficulties, applicants to the Washington Bar got to take the exam a week early (ending this morning). Lucky them!!:P

by bruinhoo on Jul 24, 2008 9:22 AM PDT 0 recs

A Little More Advice

Great points!

I want to reinforce a few of them:
1. You are supposed to walk out of the exam concerned that you did not pass. The people I know who walked out confident, failed. The reason is simple: These exams are created to spread people out. They contain many issues and complexities—the idea being that they don’t want everyone answering just one issue. (See my previous post on how to take bar exams and law school exams.) If you have extra time, look again, it’s likely you’ve missed something. Most of these questions cannot be completely answered in the time alloted.

Time management is a big issue. Do not spend too much time on one question to the detriment of others. People have a tendency to try to “Kill” the questions they know and dodge those they fear. That is a losing strategy.

2. Just as those who write should take more than one pen, so too those who type should take more than one typewriter. Neatness counts. If your handwriting is good, and/or you cannot type quickly, write. But, make it legible.

3. The best advice: DO NOT TALK WITH ANYONE ABOUT THE EXAM FOR THE DAYS YOU ARE TAKING THE EXAM! Do not be where you can hear anyone talking. It will freak you out.

4. Rest and eat, if you can. I’ve been watching the Tour De France and I think there is a good analogy as to the stamina required to stay focused and engaged throughout the exam. Bring things like PowerBars to the test (they didn’t have them in my day, so bananas it was.)

5. If you feel compelled to study between sessions, just look at the tables of contents of your review materials. You’d be surprised at what a great study aid they can be.

Good luck to all my brothers and sisters taking exams. I look forward to welcoming you to the bar.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Jul 24, 2008 9:56 AM PDT 0 recs

Thanks Fox and '66

All the tips are very helpful. And I agree with Hoo that the bar is far too near, although, truth be told, with this thing hanging over my head all summer, I’m going to be so glad to take it and get it over with so that i can return to having a normal life.

As for there being a question that makes no sense, I’ve already accepted that (i) it’s impossible to remember every detail of all of the law tested on the bar and (ii) as a result, there will be at least one essay question where I will not know what the hell I’m talking about.

In which case, I’m simply go to use whatever knowledge I do have on the subject, make up some rational, logical rule of law that seems fair under the facts, apply the facts to that rule, and hope for as much partial credit as possible. Thankfully for California, we have “holistic grading” in that there is no set checklist of issues with points set aside for each.

My key for those typing the exam using Examsoft: set your timer in the program to 55 minutes. No matter what, at the 55 minute mark, leave the question. Even if you’re close to being done, leave the question and go to the next. Do the same thing for the next question: 55 minutes. Repeat again. At the end of the third question, you’ll find yourself with 15 minutes to go back through all three, review with a different perspective (since you’ve spent two hours away from it on different problems, find anything you were missing, and finish out what you left undone. Having those 15 minutes at the end is a life-saver.

by norcald503 on Jul 24, 2008 10:01 AM PDT 0 recs

One more thing

Don’t drink after it’s over. True story coming. The equivalent of the bar exam is getting out of the Army. A guy in my company in Germany, Alfred C. Hein, got tanked up the day before he was supposed to leave, drove into a tree on his way back to the base and died. That’s a bad thing. And even if you don’t drive into a tree, your head will probably feel like you did the next morning.

Do celebrate, but think about how enjoyable it will be remembering how the celebratory party ended. Have a gin and tonic, but leave out the gin. You’ll have a better time, believe me.

by Fox 71 on Jul 24, 2008 1:35 PM PDT 0 recs

Haha

Fox, I think that’s the first bit of your advice I won’t follow. Fortunately, there is no driving involved for me in this whole bar exam process (BART takes me from downtown SF right to downtown Oakland for the exam). I’ll be going from the bar exam on Thursday right on to BART, then following my Hastings peers to some watering hole.

But don’t worry, I’ll be limiting myself to only a drink or two; I have to wake up early the next morning, pack, and move out of my apartment the following day. Oh, what fun the next week will be!

by norcald503 on Jul 24, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up 0 recs

Ah, the fun of moving

I, too have the immense joy of having to move out of my apartment after the bar exam. Thankfully, the VA exam ends on Wednesday, so I have one extra day to get out of my place.

by bruinhoo on Jul 24, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up 0 recs

All Great Advice, Of Course

(Well..I’m not sure about the no drinking thing, sorry Fox, but..no drinking and driving, that is for certain.) Definitely don’t talk to anyone about the exam, not even your mom. (She can’t help, and it will freak both of you out.)

Above all, keep in mind that you can, and will, pass this thing. You’ve already learned everything the questions are designed to draw out of you—-the knowledge is there. You just have to keep it organized as it comes pouring out of you. (That’s why the advice regarding outlining is so important.)

Best of luck to all of you. The world may have too many lawyers, but it doesn’t have too many good lawyers. Welcome aboard.

Love My Bruins

by Bruingirl83 on Jul 24, 2008 2:39 PM PDT 0 recs

Thought of you, 66

when I read a quotation recently. It’s right in line with your personal strategy of answering bar questions. I think you said that, given 1 hour for a question, you spent 40 minutes planning and outlining. and 20 minutes writing.

That strategy resonated with me, though IANAL. Anyway, I thought of you after coming upon this:

“If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I’d spend six sharpening my axe.” —Abraham Lincoln

I presume that the difference between your allocation of 33% of the time for writing versus Abe’s 20% for chopping is not significant.

by Bruinut on Jul 24, 2008 7:09 PM PDT 0 recs

Er, 25% for chopping

by Bruinut on Jul 24, 2008 7:13 PM PDT up 0 recs

Thanks for the tips

This time next week, the bar is over, and I get to push Mr. F into full time wedding planning mode.

I know I’m getting freaked out about the bar, and I swore off law school!

by freesia39 on Jul 24, 2008 8:00 PM PDT 0 recs

Freesia, it's your lucky day

I’m not just a guru of bar exam preparation, I’m also a cut-rate wedding planner. Here are some free tips. First – get married at your regular church, but do it on Sunday. It will take about five minutes, and be a nice break from the regular routine. Sort of like a baptism. And you won’t have to rent the church. Your friends will probably put something in the offering plate, and the pastor will be happy.

Second, don’t forget funeral homes as a prime source of flowers. Check the Saturday funerals. Arrive sort of late, and then grab a few flower arrangements on the way out.

Third, the reception. Ahh, yes. The reception. Don’t overspend here. See which of your friends has the biggest back yard, and there you are. Food is no problem – have all the girls bring salsa, have all the guys bring chips and peanuts, and you’ve got it.

Finally, the cake. There are good bakeries in Ralphs stores. Very often, people don’t pick up their cakes, and you can just scrape off the “Happy Birthday Jimmy” and write something more appropriate. It doesn’t matter if there’s a picture of Spiderman, because you’ll never know once the case gets sliced.

Those are the free tips. The really good ones, alas, I must give you in secret and for a very healthy fee. But you’re halfway home already.

(And you guys thought I was just another pretty face hanging out here.)

by Fox 71 on Jul 24, 2008 9:15 PM PDT up 0 recs

Wow...

Great minds must think alike! I had very nearly similar suggestions for my fiancee. Well, make that ex-fiancee :-P

by impaulv on Jul 25, 2008 10:36 AM PDT up 0 recs

Hope it's not to late

to get into the discussion, but…

Any advice for taking the LSAT? I’ve been teaching high school for 12 years and am considering a different direction. I will be taking the test in October, and have bought a few different prep books.

Any advice?

by palafox on Jul 26, 2008 9:25 AM PDT 0 recs

Buy the past exams

and practice using those. According to the almost hubby, that helped him the most. Try to simulate testing conditions as much as possible.

Also get the Logic Games Bible, if those aren’t your strong point. You should be good on reading comprehension, and if you’re struggling with logical reasoning, I think there is a book out for that also now.

by freesia39 on Jul 26, 2008 10:39 AM PDT up 0 recs

Another Bar tip

I agree with a lot of what has already been said. I did handwrite because it was when there were those rolling blackouts, and I was completely freaked that the power at the test site would go out.

Another really good tip that helped me—wear a watch, but also bring a non-digital watch with you. Set it at Noon and start it when the exam starts. You will be able to tell at a glance how much time has passed. (12-1 is the first question, 1-2 is the second question, 2-3 is your last hour.)

Another good tip – it is a marathon, not a sprint. Do not take the last performance test while thinking about how happy you will be when you are done. That will come soon enough. The last half of the last day counts just as much as the rest of it.

by Trulybruin on Jul 27, 2008 12:15 PM PDT 0 recs

Good Luck

Good advice from everyone…

I would only add that the BARBRI MBE questions were not really representative of the MBE questions on the actual exam. However, like other people have pointed out, that just means that everyone is going to be a bit surprised by the MBE. I hear that the BARBRI questions have gotten better recently, though.

It certainly wasn’t my favorite three days of my life, but you bar takers have been good at tests your whole life. Best of luck.

by bear85 on Jul 27, 2008 4:11 PM PDT 0 recs

Great point

I must have taken 100’s of self administired tests with the barbri questions and I was terrified at my subpar pass rates. However, I passed the real test on my first shot and it wasn’t even close.

by Ajax on Jul 27, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up 0 recs

Keep Cool

Took Calif. bar in ‘77. Prepared with BAR/BRI for every subject except Corporations because I couldn’t get it organized in my mind and there had only been 1 essay question on it per year. So of course this was the year when they had 2! The third essay I could skip was one where I couldn’t figure out what the subject was. I asked my roommate later and he told me it was Remedies. But the one “gimme” essay was supposed to be Community Property and as soon as everyone saw the question, we knew that there was zero case law on it. Many folks freaked and were sure they’d failed the exam. I thought it was interesting and fun and challenging and enjoyed working up an answer based on general legal principles and equitable considerations. Only 1 of my classmates was sure he had passed; many were sure they had failed; I figured it was 50-50 for me. As mentioned by previous posters, don’t let anyone ask you how you answered X—by then it is sunk cost and you do yourself no favors by risking getting depressed. I did pass, so you certainly can. Best of luck!

by ucla7477 on Jul 27, 2008 5:53 PM PDT 0 recs

don't rush

Don’t try to rush through the exam, you’re more likely to miss something. It’s hard to focus when you’re panicking, and time will seem to fly. Take your time, and be methodical.

Just about everyone i talked to after the exam thought they missed a “big issue.” Yet, most passed. So know that you’re allowed at least one big screw up. I found it comforting to have that cushion.

by UCLAbruin920 on Jul 27, 2008 9:23 PM PDT 0 recs

Taking the MPRE

In about a week. They recently raised the pass percentage to the mid 80’s as opposed to the high 70’s less then a year ago.

Should still be easy. I’m going to read through this post more closely as I think I have a lot to learn. Thanks Fox!

by Bruins102NCAA on Jul 28, 2008 1:23 AM PDT 0 recs

It's all multiple choice

So some of the advice re: writing essays isn’t applicable. But, take your time. IIRC, you have at least two minutes per question, so there’s no need to rush.

Also, BarBri’s practice MPRE questions are not at all representative of actual MPRE questions. When I took the MPRE I found the actual questions to not just be phrased much differently than BarBri’s sample questions, but the answers were more difficult to discern. On at least 75% of the questions, you’ll get it down to two questions, both of which are correct. The goal is to figure ot which is “more correct.”

It was incredibly frustrating and I thought I bombed. I was surprised to find out I owned the MPRE.

And even if you do bomb it, no worries. You can re-take it and there’s no stigma attached to re-taking it (as there seems to be with the bar exam).

by norcald503 on Jul 28, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up 0 recs

yep

I agree with everyone norcal just said. It’s pretty easy to narrow the answer choices to two, but then it starts to come down to nuances. Get a feel for the general intent behind the rules and you’ll be ok. When I got down to the last two, I just picked the one that was the most fair and impartial answer.

About 5 hours of study time and i was good to go, but like norcal, I thought I bombed it too.

And yes, no stigma for retaking the MPRE. Huge stigma for repeat bar exam takers. Do it once, do it right.

by UCLAbruin920 on Jul 28, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up 0 recs

MPRE

I hardly studied, just one night really. Combined with the fact that the worst grade I received in law school was Professional Responsibility, I thought I was screwed when I walked out.

I still got a 99. It is a tough test but nobody does well. If you walk out feeling terrible, everybody else does too. Just do what everybody says and try to narrow down your choices as much as possible and make your best guess. Good Luck.

by Rhapsode on Jul 28, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

exactly

determining whether an action/set of circumstances is proper or not; determining the proper justification for that answer is the tricky part. I “studied” for the MPRE during spring break, and my performance certainly showed (though like the Bar Exam, a low pass counts just as much asa perfect score, and I scored well enough to satisfy any MPRE jurisdiction).

As an aside, I am at my hotel, wrapping up some pre-exam review. For the lawyers here, is there some point in which review becomes worthless, and relaxation/rest becomes paramount? (= an excuse to go to the hotel’s hot tub later? :)

by bruinhoo on Jul 28, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

that point is right about now

... but everyone is different. There are two general types of people (in my book). There are those who can’t relax if they aren’t studying every possible minute before the test. These people need to be firing on all cylinders or they freak out.

The other camp, will only stress themselves out by trying to do as much as they can in the last minute. For these people, being well-rested is the most important thing. You know which category you fall into. My guess is, if you’re thinking about relaxing at this point… then it’s time to relax. So i say, hop into that hot tub, get a massage, and have a nice dinner.

This test is about endurance as much as it is about memorization. Don’t burn yourself out.

by UCLAbruin920 on Jul 28, 2008 6:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

It depends

As UCLAbruin920 says, it depends on your mind set. I was a last minute studier. I got a perfect score. (I assume it was a perfect score. If you pass, you’re not told what your score is, but I assume mine was perfect.) Other people slept. They apparently got perfect scores, too.

My advice without knowing anything about you – rest. You should by now have all of the law, including the tidbits gleaned from reading the footnotes of cases referenced in the footnotes) to an acronym at most one letter long. When you see the first question, that one letter will burst forth in a mini-Big Bang event, and scatter all the wonderful legal things from the entire galaxy into just the right place on each of your pages.

Go to bed.

by Fox 71 on Jul 28, 2008 6:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

Day 1 is in the books.

The fact that I an in my hotel room writing this and not in a car/train/plane fleeing town as quickly as possible must be a sign that I did not completely bomb the state essays.

I did take to heart much of the advice here, and thank all of those who contributed over the past week. I did my best to keep my answers clear and organized; of the people immediately around me, I only noticed one other test taker outlining his answer or making notes on the essay before writing. I spent about 1/3 of the allotted time (12 minutes of the 36 minutes/question) thinking and organizing my answer, which seemed to work well for me.

As an aside, the ambiance of the Virginia Bar Exam is simply unmatched. The handwriters are assigned to take the exam on the floor of an ~8,000 seat arena. It was like an exam in Ackerman Ballroom, or on the floor at Pauley. And I get to go back and do it again tomorrow for the MBE!

by bruinhoo on Jul 29, 2008 3:30 PM PDT 0 recs

We survived

One day down, two more to go (well, one for you hoo, you lucky bastard).

Having gone through the first day, all of the advice the old hands gave out here turned out to be real helpful. I admit my nerves got the best of me at first and I was tempted to just start writing, but I managed to put things together, did a bit of organizing, and used a lot of underlined subheadings.

Thank you for all the help and I’ll see (figuratively speaking) you all in a few days.

by norcald503 on Jul 29, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up 0 recs

Hoo, Norcald, et al --

Have faith in yourselves and in your profs and in your bar review instructors. You can do this.

I don’t envy you, by the way. But hang in there.

by Fox 71 on Jul 29, 2008 9:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

Good luck guys

Finish strong!

by Nestor on Jul 30, 2008 5:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

well, I'm done

The MBE was not the most enjoyable testiing experience that I have ever faced, but it is over. Knocking on wood, I am glad that it is over and hope that I do not have to face that darn exam again.

by bruinhoo on Jul 30, 2008 11:23 PM PDT up 0 recs

Congrats on finishing

I know what it feels like. With MDs, its like taking your specialty boards moreso than the National Boards (pretty much everyone passes those). I look forward to hearing some good news from you guys soon. Do they still make you wait until around Thanksgiving to get your results?

by Give me a B... on Jul 31, 2008 1:47 AM PDT up 0 recs

yep, it's usually mid november

If you haven’t all done so, plan a trip! Enjoy those months off before you have to start working… believe me, you’ll be glad you did, even if it means taking out yet another loan. It’s good for your sanity, you need something to do to get your mind off the bar.

by UCLAbruin920 on Jul 31, 2008 8:46 AM PDT up 0 recs

it gets easier

after the first day, your nerves will settle and you’ll just go into auto-pilot. I heard the first day was a bit challenging, so it’s likely that it won’t get any harder over the next couple days… and hopefully no earthquakes.

by UCLAbruin920 on Jul 29, 2008 9:31 PM PDT 0 recs

IT'S DONE!

Now, one month away til we get hitched!

And then the results waiting game.

by freesia39 on Jul 31, 2008 8:57 PM PDT 0 recs

Congrats on both counts

But I still haven’t heard from you about my wedding planning duties. You can get through this for maybe $20 or $30 if you follow my simple, money-saving tips.

by Fox 71 on Aug 1, 2008 4:30 AM PDT up 0 recs

Sadly, the license alone

is $70.

I spent $30 the other day on undergarments… I think we’re way over your budget, Fox.

by freesia39 on Aug 1, 2008 8:30 AM PDT up 0 recs

Oh, Freesia, Freesia, you poor innocent child.

Never, NEVER mention undergarments in a sports blog. There are thirteen year olds just frothing at the moutn as they wait for their parents to leave so they can get at the computer and have a field day discussing your unmentionables.

But all is not lost. You can still sell the undergarments on e-bay (probably for a lot more than $30.00), and we can still bring this thing in at least close to budget.

by Fox 71 on Aug 1, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up 0 recs