Neuheisel On 4th down
This is a follow up to Nestor's article about going for it on 4th down.
- First, already talked about going for the FG with a 4th and 2 at Cal’s 6 yard line. When it was pretty clear that Bruins needed TDs instead of FGs, CRN decided to play it safe.
- Second, we saw the same situation play out again later in the third quarter when with a 4th and 3 on Cal’s 28, Neuheisel again went with the Donahue mindset of playing it safe and going for three.
- Third, this is where probably many will not agree with me but I will share it anyway. Jahvid Best’s 93 yard run I thought was the game changing moment that pretty much decided the outcome of the game. However, the pivotal decision in my mind came right before UCLA punted in that second quarter. Bruins had 4th and less than a yard to go on their own 46 yard line. Up until that time Bruins were doing all right on offense (actually we had a decent day on offense against a slightly better than average defense yesterday). Anyway with a less than a yard to go and down by only 7 (14-21), Neuheisel took the safe route (the Donahue one) and decided to play for field position by depending on Locke’s leg. Well Locke did boom one (for 46 yards) but it didn’t do much good as the D got obliterated by Best in the subsequent big play. What I am saying here that’s the kind of moment when Neuheisel instead of playing by the conventional Donahue rules, could send his signal to rest of his team that he had enough trust in his young talent and offense to go for less than a yard.
Strongly recommend this whole 4 part article to anyone who has time and is interested in football strategy....anyway, the summary of it is that they calculated the expected points from each yard line, ran some probabilities of conversion percentages on 4th down and field goals from every yard line, as well as the expected points from punts. NFL data but the probabilities for NCAA ball probably isnt too far off.
I was North Campus but even I could follow and crunch some numbers (ie, read a graph), so all of you can understand this. I went ahead and figured out how these decisions played out according to the probabilities. Here are the three charts that are used.
4th and 2 at the 6-yard line: The expected point value of a field goal at the 6 yard line is about 2.2, maybe 2.3 points (3 points - almost guaranteed field goal from that range, minus 0.7 points, which is the expected points you will give up when you kick off following a FG). On the 2nd chart, a 4th-and-2 attempt at the 6 yard line will usually net you about 2.8, 2.9 points, factoring in the probabilities of converting that as well as the expected points for having a first down at the 4 yard line and subtracting the expected points that you would lose if the other team took possession on the 6-yard line. You can see here that having a 1st down backed up deep in your own territory actually gives you negative expected points, so if you go for it and fail, it's not all that bad to cough up the ball deep into Cal territory - Cal is more likely to give up points down the road if they take possession backed up that deep (obviously, there are always exceptions, as Jahivd Best proved, and these are just odds). In this case, according to the numbers, going for it is a wiser decision.
4th and 3 at the 28-yard line: The expected points difference here is a little closer. A FG from that range will probably net you about 1.2 points (probability of converting a FG from that range, subtracted the EP for the other team receiving possession after the score/them receiving possession 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage on a miss), while going for it looks to be about 1.5 or 1.6 expected points. A little closer this time but going for it still looks to be the wiser decision.
4th and 1 at the 46-yard line: Here you go to the expected value of punts - factoring in the average distance of a punt from each yard line, and the expected points the other team will have from possessing the ball at that yard line. From the 46-yard line it's a little less than 0, maybe -0.1 expected points. From that distance the average is about 30 yards, giving Cal possession at their own 10, where their expected points for that drive is 0.1. If you look at the 2nd chart, the highest blue line is 4th-and-1, where the expected points are better than any other distance. At the 46-yard line, it's about 1.1 expected points to go for it, clearly better than the value for a punt. Again, this is a better decision according to the odds.
However, football isn't math, the odds are only odds. We punted, backed Cal up to the 7 yard line, where their expected points are actually about -0.5, or a positive 0.5 for us. In reality they scored 7. The odds don't always play out but they are the averages of what is expected to happen. Obviously there are going to be different depending on your team and players - Kai Forbath isn't getting 1.5 points on a field goal from the 28, he is getting almost guaranteed 3 points every time (minus 0.7 on the ensuring kickoff, the EP of Cal for getting the ball at the 27-yard line) because he does not know how to miss.
However I do think that we should have gone for at least the first and the last situation, short-yardage deals where the odds of converting are slightly higher (see the gap between 4th-and-1 and 4th-and-everything else on that middle graph). For what it's worth here is their graph of what to do/not do on 4th down, based on these findings. Here is a graph that has all three of the above ones merged, you can clearly see that there were higher expected points at the 6, 28, and 46 yard lines for going for it (colored lines) than kicking (black line). Interesting to note that 4th-and-2 is almost always a better decision than kicking from anywhere on the field, and 4th-and-1 is always a better decision, according to this data.
There's a ton of reasons why you don't go for it on 4th down - at that site they write about how people fear potential loss rather than prospective gain, even though a punt is considered a "loss" it doesn't really feel like it, while a failed 4th down does and is rarely considered a "good call". If you miss a FG that's a loss, but it's the kicker's fault - it was still a "good call". Job security is probably another, a guy like Pete Carroll is not getting fired anytime soon so he can afford to be more aggressive on 4th down. Going for it and not converting in a national championship Rose Bowl game that you end up losing would have fans calling for your job with almost any other coach. I feel like if Neuheisel had gone 0-3 on those 4th downs we'd be saying the other thing.
Addendum
Here is some more reading from the site (great insights into the game if you have time) on the topic of 4th downs in “no-man’s land” – area where you could either attempt a long field goal or a short punt – again, NFL statistics, but I don’t think that this matters as much, more of a general coaching thing.
On 4th down from identical field positions, coaches tend to attempt FGs more often with shorter distances to go and punt more often with longer distances to go. For example, when kicking on 4th and 1 from the 32, coaches went for the FG 100% of the time. But when kicking on 4th and long (7+ yds) from the 32, coaches went for the FG less often—80% of the time.

Interesting, that for something that does not matter at all if you punt or kick a FG (distance to go), there is still a mental effect on the decision. I’ll just copy since I can’t really say it better than they did. In 4th and 1 they kicked the FG about 85% of the time, compared to only about 65% of the time, from the same yardline.
It’s as if teams with 4th and short feel like they came so close that they really want to come away from the drive with points. And teams with 4th and long feel more resigned to giving up the hope for points, preferring to pin the opponent deep in his own territory. Any other theories?
The closer you are, ie, a 4th-and 2 near the goalline, coaches may feel that they need to at least come away with something. I went back and checked the drive charts for those two FG decisions – both were 50+ yard drive that started in our own territory. Maybe if we had started these drives as a result of a turnover, in Cal territory, we would have gone for a 4th down or two, as you would feel as if you hadn’t invested as much in the drive and would be more likely to gamble at the end. Studying field position vs. 4th down decisions would be an interesting study.
I think, NFL or no, that these statistics and numbers show that there is definitely a mental component to making these decisions, that it’s the result of either by the fear of coming away with no points, the perception of greater risk, pressure from fans and media, conventional norms, poor play by the offense, etc rather than simple probabilities and expectations of success. However I don’t think that going against these numbers automatically makes the decision “bad” – these other factors do exist and they do need to be taken into consideration.
These may be statistics from NFL games but I do believe that there are many of these “mental roadblocks” among most coaches at any level that prevent them from rethinking the norms – teams have been punting on 4th down for a century (even though it was a different game back then, when offense were not rolling up and down the field), so coaches tend to punt on 4th down when it would appear that this may not always be the wisest decision to score points according to the long-term odds.
I think that punting for field position is valid in cases, as in games where your offense isn’t moving well (a throwback to those old days when punting became the wisest decision).
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
4 recs |
15 comments
Comments
Great Stuff. I love your posts.
Somehow, the generalizations have to be tempered by the performance of individual teams.
sc going for a 4th and 1 with its talent base and statistical rate of success is far different than our going for it with our talent base and rate of success.
Said another way, can we expect an offense in the bottom quarter of all teams to have the same point rates as a team in the top quarter? I can’t see how that would be true.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Oct 18, 2009 9:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This data isn't going to be accurate for NCAA footbal
The talent gap between the top and bottom teams is just too great. In the NFL, with only 32 teams, the talent gaps are generally smaller and data like this is more relevant. I would seriously doubt how much you can infer from these stats when you try to apply them to the college game.
by uclamatt2007 on Oct 18, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt, I think you left out a "probably"
It PROBABLY isn’t going to be accurate, based on certain assumptions. The only way we’ll know is for someone (not me, by the way) to replicate the numbers for college football, but I’m not sure the numbers will be significant’y different. First, the same coaching mindset exists. On fourth and one a coach punts to avoid criticism and to get field position on the expectation that field position equates to points. It seems to me that there are more big plays than in the NFL, so the field position argument probably has less merit. We know that big play exception better than anyone after Saturday.
Anyway, I ‘m sure there is more to say on the issue, but I am starting to go over to the don’t punt faction. We know that our offense isn’t a juggernaut when we only get three plays to make ten yards, so how about trying it on the fourth play once (or twice or three times) in a while. We’ve lost three in a row, and the prospects aren’t getting any better this week, so why not be a little imaginative?
by Fox 71 on Oct 19, 2009 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could it be
that Fox71 knows more about coaching than CRN? I surprised that you would suggest trying something contrary to what Coach called, in light of the fact that you were vehemently opposed to doing so a mere three weeks ago. Please try and remain consistent, you will have more credibility when you attack folks for their opinions in the future.
by ambitious on Oct 19, 2009 4:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You seem a bit sensitive, ambitious -- don't shoot the messenger at least immediately
I poked fun at the one comment you posted since you joined the BN two weeks ago. You made it very clear that you wanted Brehaut to be the starter. You said:
“A lot of you out there had no problem second guessing Dorrell (rightfully) even though you did not have access to HIS data points. Yet, you sycophantically protect poor decisions by CRN. The object is to win. CRN’s refusal to play RB is mystifying to me. They literally had nothing (more) to lose. In playing the Stanford game, UCLA had the opportunity to be sitting atop the PAC10 and earning a modicum of respect. One would think that they would have been more aggressive in pursuing that goal. Instead, they dumbed it down, played safe, and look where it got them. It was apparent to me very early on that this was not going to go our way. CRN knew that as well. Why not roll the dice on RB?”
I took you to task a little, by pointing out the pedigrees of Coaches Neuheisel and Chow. I guess I should be flattered that of all the comments which disagreed with yours, I am the only person you chose to attack. Maybe I’m just the easiest target. But I think in your zeal to get a retaliatory shot in at me, you misunderstood the point I was trying to make, so let me clarify. I thought I the notion I conveyed in my comment was the overwhelming majority of coaches in college and in the nfl, punt more often than they should according to the article cited by jthirtyfour. (In fact, I have only read of one coach who does not punt, and he never punts.) My criticism is not of Coaches Neuheisel or Chow in particular, but of all coaches everywhere. I would like to see one team go way, way outside the box as the article suggests, and I see no reason why that can’t be our team. (I know somewhere at some point I said that I pre-forgave Coach Neuheisel any time he decided to go for it and didn’t make it.)
I don’t think my comment was saying that I know more about coaching than anyone. I am saying that I read the article and it made sense to me, and I would like to give it a try. It seems to me that you are more interested in shooting the messenger than in looking at the message. But if you think that I’m being inconsistent, then by all means chop me to ribbons. You won’t be the first person to have done so successfully, and it’s pretty likely that you won’t be the last.
(As an aside, I do a lot of posting. If you look at all of them, you’ll probably find more inconsistencies that you can write about. If you choose to undertake that task, please let me know if you find any in which I do any of the following: (a) recommend reading the fishwrap, (b) suggest that games should be watched with the sound on, and © say what a great guy Cheatie Petie is. If you find something, I’ll probably want to open my veins in sheer mortification. Which I suppose is the goal of a “shoot the messenger” post.)
by Fox 71 on Oct 19, 2009 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another way of looking at those 3 decisions
Is, simply, that the maximum outcome of those three drives was 21 points. We ended up getting six. And that ignores the 7 points Cal scored after our punt that may not have happened with an extended drive.
Playing it safe gave us basically a miracle’s chance of winning the game. Doing the ballsy thing (which even the odds favored) might’ve yielded a lead, or a one-possession game that would’ve put the game in our hands in the 4th. The worst case scenario was barely worse than the safe one.
by bluebland on Oct 19, 2009 5:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And given the way our defense was playing
It was very clear to the coaches how many points were needed to win that game. It’s not like this was a scoreless game in which conservatism may have been justified to grind out a win.
There’s no way around it. Rick’s conservatism in this game cost us a chance to win.
by bluebland on Oct 19, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet another way of looking at it
As you say, given the way our defense way playing, giving Cal a short field would increase the odds that they would put up another seven, digging us deeper into a hole.
by bru79 on Oct 20, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If your worried about deeper holes when you're already down 14 and 15
You’re not thinking of winning the game.
by bluebland on Oct 20, 2009 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken on my sensitivity
You are correct in your assessment. I’ll try and have a thicker skin next time. Also, I appreciate your explanation of poking fun and taking me to task. I suppose that is what this all about after all. For my part, and in retrospect, I came in guns blazing, and used a poorly conceived word (sycophantic) to describe a lot of people posting. I was wrong in doing so and will try to be less heavy handed in the future. Hope we can call a truce.
by ambitious on Oct 19, 2009 10:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yowza. I can't decide what I'm more proud of...
(a) The fact that we’ve got non-professional writers willing to pull out more statistical analysis than paid guys at either the LAT or OCR can even be bothered to do, OR
(b) The fact that members of this Board can agree to respectfully disagree out of a common love for UCLA Athletics.
Either way, it works for me.
M
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
by Meriones on Oct 20, 2009 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great analysis
While it’s true that the data for the pros and college game might yield slightly different lines, I sincerely doubt that the trend lines would be materially different. For instance, the # of points you gain by going for it on 4th and 1 will trend up as you approach the goal line. My best guess is that the point at which going for it becomes a net positive event would move a little to the left or right, but in substance, available data strongly suggests that coaches should not view going for it on 4th and 1 at their own 40 or closer to the opponent’s endzone as rolling the dice, but as a decision that will improve the team’s odds of winning.
Contrary to what Neuheisel said last year, punting is not winning (unless the alternative is throwing pick sixes so maybe for the 2008 Bruins it was true). Nor is kicking field goals. A field goal from inside the red zone as a net loss of 4 points that you had the opportunity to score. With all due respect to our All-American kicker, I don’t ever want to see him run out there to kick a 26-yard FG. I don’t want to see him more than twice in any game. 26-yard field goals lead to losses and exemplify failure (unless in the final 5 seconds of a game with the team tied or down 1 or 2 points). I’ve posted it before, but our biggest problem is not that we don’t score or that we give up too many scores, it’s that our opponents have a normal ratio of TDs to FG attempts (16:9), while we have an inverse ratio of TDs to FG attempts (11:18).
We are the only Pac-10 team with more FG attempts than TDs. We are tied with WSU for fewest TDs scored with 11. No other conference team has fewer than 18 TDs. Just how out of whack is our TD/FG attempt ratio? The median of the other 9 teams is 2.1 TD per FG attempt. The average is 2.2 TD to every FG attempt. Our ratio is 0.6 TDs per FG attempt.
I’ll end with one other chart. If you add up the number of TDs and FG attempts (scoring opportunities) per game for Pac-10 teams, we are in the ballpark of offensive success:
Cal: 5.83
AZ/ORE: 5.67
Stan 5.43
USC 5.33
OSU 5.17
UCLA 4.83
UW 4.71
ASU: 4.67
WSU: 3.17
Cal, leading the Pac-10, averages only one more scoring opportunity per game than we do. Cal has had, in essence 1.2 scoring opportunities to every 1 that we have had. Cal has scored 197 points to our 127, for a ratio of 1.55 to 1. If we scored TDs at the same rate as Cal does with its scoring opportunities, we would be scoring an extra 6.3 points per game.
Coach, we have a problem. We settle for too many field goals. Field goal kicking is losing. Punch it in. Do everything you can to punch it in.
by BruinsRule on Oct 20, 2009 3:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One thing to be said for the field goal
and that is the formation, as ND showed just$c* last Saturday with their great sleeper play. But unless we’re going to run a fake, I would like to reserve Forbath for extra points.
Is there an insider anywhere who can take these numbers to Coach Neuheisel? He obviously doesn’t see them in the newspaper.
by Fox 71 on Oct 20, 2009 5:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Addendum
Here is some more reading from the site (great insights into the game if you have time) on the topic of 4th downs in “no-man’s land” – area where you could either attempt a long field goal or a short punt – again, NFL statistics, but I don’t think that this matters as much, more of a general coaching thing.
On 4th down from identical field positions, coaches tend to attempt FGs more often with shorter distances to go and punt more often with longer distances to go. For example, when kicking on 4th and 1 from the 32, coaches went for the FG 100% of the time. But when kicking on 4th and long (7+ yds) from the 32, coaches went for the FG less often—80% of the time.

Interesting, that for something that does not matter at all if you punt or kick a FG (distance to go), there is still a mental effect on the decision. I’ll just copy since I can’t really say it better than they did. In 4th and 1 they kicked the FG about 85% of the time, compared to only about 65% of the time, from the same yardline.
It’s as if teams with 4th and short feel like they came so close that they really want to come away from the drive with points. And teams with 4th and long feel more resigned to giving up the hope for points, preferring to pin the opponent deep in his own territory. Any other theories?
The closer you are, ie, a 4th-and 2 near the goalline, coaches may feel that they need to at least come away with something. I went back and checked the drive charts for those two FG decisions – both were 50+ yard drive that started in our own territory. Maybe if we had started these drives as a result of a turnover, in Cal territory, we would have gone for a 4th down or two, as you would feel as if you hadn’t invested as much in the drive and would be more likely to gamble at the end. Studying field position vs. 4th down decisions would be an interesting study.
I think, NFL or no, that these statistics and numbers show that there is definitely a mental component to making these decisions, that it’s the result of either by the fear of coming away with no points, the perception of greater risk, pressure from fans and media, conventional norms, poor play by the offense, etc rather than simple probabilities and expectations of success. However I don’t think that going against these numbers automatically makes the decision “bad” – these other factors do exist and they do need to be taken into consideration.
These may be statistics from NFL games but I do believe that there are many of these “mental roadblocks” among most coaches at any level that prevent them from rethinking the norms – teams have been punting on 4th down for a century (even though it was a different game back then, when offense were not rolling up and down the field), so coaches tend to punt on 4th down when it would appear that this may not always be the wisest decision to score points according to the long-term odds.
I think that punting for field position is valid in cases, as in games where your offense isn’t moving well (a throwback to those old days when punting became the wisest decision).
by jtthirtyfour on Oct 20, 2009 7:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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