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A Note Re. Evoking CHP (Con Artist/Sleazebag) To Criticize Howland

It is hardly surprising when we have idiots like Bill Splashme hurling criticisms towards Howland after one frustrating, double overtime loss against an undermatched opponent to start the season. Morons like him don't have the requisite amount of brain cells needed to have a grasp of the big picture. That is why people like him are relegated to the Los Angeles Trojan Times.

That doesn't mean we have to put up with Splashme like stupidity here on BN. For those who want to evoke Lavin after one freaking basketball game to criticize Howland, Here is a reminder on what Steve Lavin did while posing as UCLA basketball head coach here are some numbers. I have previously posted the content below here on BN. But given some of the nonsense I have seen around the internets and some isolated comments here and there in this community, it is worth reposting again.

Under Steve Lavin UCLA basketball suffered some of the most humiliating losses in its history. Here are blowout UCLA losses under Steve Lavin by 25 or more points:

Nov. 27 1997 North Carolina 68-109
Feb. 22 1998 @ Duke 84-120
Mar. 20 1998 Kentucky 64-98  
Feb. 17 2000 @ ASU 75-104
Mar. 23 2000 Iowa State 56-80
Jan. 20 2001 @ Arizona 63-88
Feb. 1 2001 @ Cal 63-92
Jan. 31 2002 @ Oregon 62-91
Jan. 18 2003 Arizona 52-87
Feb. 13 2003 @ Arizona 70-106
Mar. 1 2003 @ Oregon 48-79

Yes UCLA was blown out of the gym by 25 or more points more than 10 times during Lavin's tenure in Westwood.

But wait there is more. There were also the following mind-numbing, humiliating losses we all had to experience when Lavin was roaming our sidelines:

Dec. 22 1999 Colorado St.  
Nov. 21 2000 CSUN (@ Pauley)
Nov. 20 2001 Ball State
Nov. 28 2001 Pepperdine (@ Pauley)
Nov. 13 2002 Branch West (Ex. @ Pauley)
Nov. 19 2002 EA Sports (Ex. @ Pauley)
Nov. 26 2002 San Diego (@ Pauley)
Dec. 17 2002 Northern Arizona (@ Pauley)

The numbers above do not include numerous double digits losses during which UCLA was never really in the game.

If other folks want to forget all those nightmarish games, embarassing moments and the humiliation the UCLA basketball program suffered day after day on regular basis under this guy, they can go right ahead. But we are not going to let people forget the numbers and sweep all those memories under the carpet. It's important to remember these numbers and remember what we went through, when we read some the mindless whining we read from few handful so called UCLA fans who don't appreciate what we have done under Howland.

The numbers above also don't give is the story about how UCLA was never able to beat Stanford at Pauley after his first year turning Wooden's House into Maples South and how Arizona was able to lap UCLA after UCLA had closed the gap from the 80s and went ahead during later part of Harrick's tenure

Moreover, the numbers of course don't tell us the whole story about how underachieving those results were given the talent Lavin inherited from Harrick's classes and was able to lure in based on the charade of a succesful season in his first year. Meriones pointed out earlier about how Lavin wasted away NBA talents during his time masquerading as a basketball coach.

Oh and by the way we didn't include the numbers from his first season ending with an Elite Eight run because it was IMO done based on the leadership of Harrick recruited veterans. Even if we were to include the numbers from that season it would have to include the humiliating loss at Maples Pavillion (known as Maples Massacre) which turned out to be a good indication of the nightmare Bruin Nation was about to experience instead of an aberration.

The nightmare ended in March of 2003, when this joker was finally fired after UCLA suffered its first losing season in 55 years (10-19).

Of course till this day Lavin hasn't taken responsibility for what he did to program and whenever he gets the chance (like he does during UCLA broadcasts) continue to blame UCLA community for having unreasonable expectations and the former UCLA officials for not giving him an opportunity to success (which is of course LOL funny given how they were the ones paying him millions to pose as a basketball coach).

Coach Ben Howland is not perfect and is not above criticism. We will not shy away from questioning him and I am sure we will offer criticisms during the regular season. However, we are not going to tolerate baseless attacks and comparing him to a sleazebag like Lavin. That will never be acceptable here on BN.

GO BRUINS.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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The Branch West loss was by 25, if memory serves.

Having been my first game as a UCLA student, and aside from a brief duck-in during a campus tour, my first time in Pauley Pavilion, that game is burned quite deeply in my mind.

by bruinhoo on Nov 18, 2009 2:36 PM PST reply actions  

100% Agree

I completely agree. There is no need to panic especially when CBH is the coach. He has proved himself at every school he has coached.

What I would like to see is a post asking everyone who their starting five would be.

My starting five would be:
Lee at PG, Roll at SG, Honeycutt at SF, Gordon at PF, Morgon at C.

Morgon needs to get PT! Start him! Therefore if he does make mistakes or cannot keep defensively, you can pull him out with the game still manageable and in reach. Starting him will also increase his confidence, he was a 5-star recruit. He posses great post moves.

by A Ucla Bruin on Nov 18, 2009 3:03 PM PST reply actions  

LOL

I hear ya N. You don’t even want to know the crap that is being thrown around on the message boards. We can all debate on whether player X should play over player Y, if someone is giving it their all, etc.

BUT, nobody should be comparing CBH to Lavin or taking cheap shots at him. It reminds me of the so called “fans” that questioned whether we needed a new HC because CBH failed to win a title. LOL! I guess programs like Syracuse, Kansas and UCONN F’d up by not firing Boeheim, Williams and Calhoun. Those worthless coaches!

I’m fine with people that want to get off the bandwagon….gives me room to stretch my legs out. :D

by BlueReign on Nov 18, 2009 3:15 PM PST reply actions  

Yeah

I have been browsing around. It’s pretty unreal some of the crap being spewed. I expect it get worse in the coming weeks.

by Nestor on Nov 18, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I am not worried.

Admittedly they looked out of sorts. Their shooting, defense, offense and as usual free throw shooting, left a whole lot to be desired. They looked like a team that just stepped onto the practice floor for the first time in three months. I am sure that CBH will get things whipped into shape by Pac-10 start. I watched the Zags and Mich St last night and was really glad that we weren’t facing a team like either of them right now, it would be truly ugly.
I think my starting five right now would be: Lee-PG, Roll, Keefe, Nelson and Gordon. Not a lot of fire power in there, but a bunch of guys that will give you 100%. Just like football, it will be fun to watch them mature as a team.

by LongtimeBru on Nov 18, 2009 3:47 PM PST reply actions  

I don't think this is necessary

I mean you know of all people that UCLA fans that are bashing Howland are fair weather fans and have no insight in comparison.

That being said,

Feb. 22 1998 @ Duke 84-120

My favorite of all losses…got my Dad 400 dollars

There's no one in the world that wants to beat UCLA more than _______.

by ucla13_usc9 on Nov 18, 2009 4:29 PM PST reply actions  

Funny you mention gambling

I made quite a bit (relatively speaking) of money betting against the Bruins in the Lavin era. Most of my friends called me a sellout for doing so, but my response was that it was payment for my pain and suffering endured during the Lavin era. Now that I’m older, I’m not sure if I’d do that again; but fortunately with Ben Howland, I know I won’t ever have to.

by insomniacslounge on Nov 18, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Ugh, listening to Lavin during the MSU game on Tuesday(?)

I wanted to poke my eyes out with a pencil. He was talking about MSU’s run to the Final Four last year, and was all “That was an impressive a run to the Final Four as I’ve ever seen, with the possible exception of Arizona in ’97”.

All the while, I’m sitting there thinking, “the only reason Arizona ever had an opportunity to get to that point was because you were an entirely useless coach, Steve, so thanks for that.”

by CAJason80 on Nov 18, 2009 4:40 PM PST reply actions  

I am worried

I can foresee a very down year for us in terms of wins and losses. We do not have a Pac-10 caliber point guard, and across the board the talent level is significantly down compared to any team (other than perhaps the first) in CBH’s tenure. The fact that Fullerton’s speed and athleticism was noticeably greater than the Bruins’ is telling indeed, and I’d say the two teams’ skill levels were relatively even; the only reason this game was close was due to Fullerton’s numerous unforced turnovers. ML will not have a second year like RW, JA is not comfortable at handling the ball, ND is streaky at best, JK has lost the aggressiveness he’s capable of, RN is raw, DG is out of position at center, and the go-to guy at this point is… MR? Don’t get me wrong, I love these guys and what they can bring to the party, but they will need to really gel to be greater than the sum of their parts, and it would appear to me that that will take some time.

Is there any doubt in anyone’s head that CBH will get these players to play at their best? to improve individually? and as a team? Not for me, although I doubt it will be reflected in wins and losses until the second half of the Pac-10 schedule, there is simply too far to go. And I would be only mildly surprised if it happens before that, I have such faith in CBH.

But to the point of the thread, I won’t even begin to think about comparing CBH to his predecessor. And anyone who does and arrives at a conclusion other than “night and day” is, to my mind, some combination of idiot, troll, hater, or Trojan.

Monday’s game was rough, but I was soooo grateful that the ESPN color ‘man’ did not have greasy hair.

by haywood nighttrain on Nov 18, 2009 4:45 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Well said

As I sat through that painful debacle Monday night, watching it live, it felt unlike the Howland teams of recent years and much more like those of the Lavin era. But to compare the two coaches using this game as evidence of any similarities, is absurd. It will take some of CBH’s best coaching this year to be competitive in the Pac 10 and possibly earn a Tourney Bid. But any sensible and knowledgeable basketball person will tell you that CBH and not Lavin, is the coach you want running your program to have any chance of reaching those goals.

by Bald Eagle on Nov 18, 2009 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Rec'd

The talent shortcomings on this team are pretty obvious, as we have a team full of role players and no true go-to guy. I’m hopeful that in time Malcolm Lee will become that guy. I think we saw some positive signs from him on Monday, but his best basketball is still to come.

I agree re: Jerime Anderson. He still doesn’t look comfortable out there. It’s still early, but we’re going to need him to get a lot better in a hurry if we’re going to be anywhere near the top 5 of the pac 10.

As for the CBH/Lavin comparisons- while the loss to Fullerton is certainly a blight on Coach Howland’s record, that’s where any similarities to the Lavin debacle end. As stated above, Coach Howland is not infallible, but he does understand the game better than most people walking the planet. Coach Lavin was the worst coach of anything, ever. That greasy haired charlatan was an embarrassment to UCLA and to the game of basketball.

by insomniacslounge on Nov 18, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think CBH is perfect, and do question

his substitution patterns, but comparing him to Lavin is so laughable on its face I don’t know how you can even respond to it..

"when you've seen how big the world is, how can you make due with this?"

by silverlakebruin on Nov 18, 2009 6:15 PM PST reply actions  

That is totally fine

I have stayed quiet so far because I haven’t watched a game on TV yet. But I understand people asking questions about sub patterns, tactical decisions etc. That’s part of sports.

However, even bringing up Lavin and using memory associated with him to attack Howland is deeply insulting given what Lavin did to this program and what Howland has done. I think this whole distinguishing about “oh I was just bringing up a memory/feeling of a Lavin game not comparing Howland to him” doesn’t fly either.

by Nestor on Nov 18, 2009 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

The question to ask when comparing Coach Howland to his predecessor

is whether there is any set of circumstances under which you would prefer his predecessor as (can’t say the word Coach in any context involving CHP.).

That set of circumstances never has existed and never will exist.

by Fox 71 on Nov 18, 2009 8:54 PM PST reply actions  

no one likes to lose...

…but this season is going to be painful at times. We will definitely have our bright, shining moments, but we are going to experience growing pains and some tough losses. Do I have a problem with this? No, I do not. CBH has proven that his style fits both div I college basketball and the NBA game (see the multitude of UCLA players in the NBA). I trust in Ben Howland.

As the season progresses, so will our team. It upsets me that some “fans” are already doubting our touted sophomores…they have barely played! Give them time to develop and grow…I guarantee that they will sprout into true Ben Ball Warriors.

As for those that compare Lavin to CBH…get the hell out of here. I was in school when Lavin was coach and it was an embarassment. Ugh.

by hicalliber on Nov 18, 2009 11:34 PM PST reply actions  

One other difference between Howland and that other guy...Accountability

After congratulating Fullerton for the victory to open his postgame press conference, the next thing Howland said was:

We took 84 shots, and only made 26 of them. A lot of that is probably because I did not substitute enough, and I think our legs got tired and it showed.

Compare that to other “leaders” we’ve had who would immediately deflect criticism by either praising the opposing team as the greatest thing ever or more often that not, throwing his own players under the proverbial bus. While Coach Howland does hold his players accountable (he mentioned Nelson’s really bad turnover, Roll missing the front end of the one and one and Dragovic’s shooting struggles, but balanced it with encouraging comments about all three as well), he knows that first and foremost, the onus of his team’s performance lies with him. After pointing out the missteps taken during the game he followed it with:


Part of that is my fault. We’ve gotta use Moser more. We’ve gotta use Nelson more.

and he closed the press conference with:

It’s hard when you’re asking kids to play that many minutes. So again that is my responsibility to manage.

We’re going to be fine. It’s going to be a bumpy road for awhile, but Coach Howland will get us where we need to be.

note: all emphases added are mine

by insomniacslounge on Nov 19, 2009 1:26 AM PST reply actions  

ARRRRRGH

My first season watching UCLA basketball was Lavin the Terrible’s Elite Eight run and as young kid I thought wow, I’m so glad UCLA’s basketball team is as good as their football team (Remember this was still the height of the Toledo era and I was 8 and didn’t know about our rich basketball history). Then it all went downhill from there.

Lavin the Terrible continued to disappoint me more and more year after year. I inititally cut him some slack but the team only got worse and worse and it was so frustrating because we clearly had the talent to beat those Stanford and ‘zona teams. I clearly remember one morning reading the LA Slimes when I saw another blowout loss to a Pac-10 opponent and I asked my dad what was wrong with our Bruins and he explained to me the history of UCLA basketball, our 11 national championships (I only knew about 1995), and Coach Woodens’s legacy and how Lavin the Terrible was throwing it down the toilet and from that point on I was disgusted by Lavin the Terrible. The Maples Massacre sealed the deal for me (I wanted to punch a wall) but by start of 2001 I was fervently calling for his head.

In summary, THERE IS NO COMPARISON TO CBH, AT ALL. Oh, and F*** the F***ing Fairweather Fans. We don’t need you anyway. These are the same people who root for the trOJans in football because Herbstreit and ESPN consistently fellate Cheatey Pete and his cronies and act like “USC is LA’s professional football team”. A sports writer for the Daily Princetonian wrote today of SUC’s downfall and the above in quotations and I am writing a letter to the editor calling out his consistent Bay Area bias and LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHO THE BRUINS ARE. Not everyone in LA loves the Trojans, for example you will find no love here, but the ones who do and didn’t go to U$C are full of shit

"Beating USC isn't a matter of life and death, it's more important than that" -Red Sanders-

by PrincetonBruin on Nov 19, 2009 2:39 AM PST reply actions  

But part of what they say is true

just$c* is LA’s professional football team. Bu$h probably didn’t have to take much of a pay cut when he went into the NFL, but a third or fourth round choice probably did. Tommy Hawkins said it first. When he was drafted out of Notre Dame, he said he had to take a huge pay cut to sign with the Lakers.

by Fox 71 on Nov 19, 2009 7:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Now that I think about it

I was actually thinking of a different year as being the Maples Massacre but the reality is that I feel like every time we went up to Maples it was a Massacre. All those loses to the Trees really made me favor Cal in Cal-Stanford matchups despite Cal’s obvious and annoying inferiority complex against our Bruins and be a generally anti-Stanford person probably so much that I didn’t apply to college there, a fact that only changed when my cousin and best friend went to Stanford two years ago. Up until then if you asked me who in the Pac-10 I hated after the pansies from the University of South Central I would have said the ‘furd. Nowadays though I’m rooting for the Cardinal in the Big Game. Toby Gerhart is a beast. Tedford is wayyyyyy overrated.

"Beating USC isn't a matter of life and death, it's more important than that" -Red Sanders-

by PrincetonBruin on Nov 19, 2009 3:01 AM PST reply actions  

this reminds me

Nestor’s post does not include the biggest massacre in ucla basketball history, I believe, which was. 48-pt loss in Jan 1997 vs Stanford. By a team good enough to go 15-3 in conference. Wow. Lavin averaged two no-show blowout losses per year. Charlatan.

by BruinsRule on Nov 19, 2009 7:23 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Didn't forget about that one

To be charitable I didn’t include that loss for the following reason:


Oh and by the way we didn’t include the numbers from his first season ending with an Elite Eight run because it was IMO done based on the leadership of Harrick recruited veterans. Even if we were to include the numbers from that season it would have to include the humiliating loss at Maples Pavillion (known as Maples Massacre) which turned out to be a good indication of the nightmare Bruin Nation was about to experience instead of an aberration.

by Nestor on Nov 20, 2009 4:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Prepare for the worst

I think this year will, by far, be Howland’s most difficult and frustrating year in his entire tenure at UCLA, and perhaps his entire coaching career. A big part of that frustration will be borne from a fanbase that has been spoiled by 3 recent Final Four runs and Pac-10 championships and the expectations that this program can perform at an elite level every year. It is extremely, extremely difficult to achieve year after year success in today’s college basketball landscape (when point guards jump to the NBA after one season despite only averaging 8 ppg.)

No one is a bigger admirer of Howland than myself. However, I do believe that Howland has to re-calibrate his approach somewhat to perhaps adapt to today’s college basketball landscape. I believe he can do this and still adhere to the philosphies that has made this program and himself successful over the last 4 years or so. I believe in Howland and I trust he will find a way to bring this program back to an elite level.

We need to be patient, take our pain, keep supporting this team, and watch how this plays out.

formerly godblesstyus95

by Blue Me on Nov 19, 2009 8:01 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Agree, sort of.

I don’t think it will be all pain. I think Coach Howland is not just a good coach, I think he’s a good teacher, and he will teach these guys how to play well together and how to win.

by Fox 71 on Nov 19, 2009 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

You know, I always thought good coach = good teacher. And in being a good coach/teacher, his job is to recruit students with the character to learn.

Based on that, no success gained by Lavin could ever have me think of him as a good coach.

Go Bruins!

by Harsha on Nov 19, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Howland's losses of more than 25 points

[No data]

Howland-coached Bruins had one loss of 25 points (72-97 to Arizona in 2004), one by 24 (83-107 to Arizona in 2004) and one other loss of 20 points or more (69-89 to Villanova last March).

That’s it. Lavin had 2.0 per year, Howland has 0.15 per year.

by BruinsRule on Nov 19, 2009 7:31 PM PST reply actions  

I was at one of the 2004 UA games

The one at Pauley obviously. There’s an argument to be made that given the state of our team in 2004 that is owed in large part to CHP, that those two losses should come with an asterisk indicating that CHP is even partially responsible for those as well.

by Tydides on Nov 19, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Lavin and Howland.

The only time the names Lavin and Howland should be paired in any sentence is if someone is asked the question of who’s the idiot who screwed up UCLA basketball for years and who’s the guy who cleaned it all up?

by UCLA4Life on Nov 20, 2009 11:47 AM PST reply actions  

Also

Lavin is FAT. I’ve seen it.
Howland could run circles around him and spin him like a flabby pizza.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Nov 20, 2009 1:07 PM PST reply actions  

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