UCLA Basketball's Brave New World
by gbruin on Dec 3, 2009 2:57 PM PST
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We keep contrasting the approach and attitude of a player like Drew Gordon to the attitude of players like AA, PAA, DC, LRMAM, LMR, etc. The differences are easy to see. I am discouraged with Gordon leaving our team, but mostly, I am regretful that a player with Gordon’s talent doesn’t have AA’s or LMR’s work ethic and team-first approach. That would have been an awesome combination and a great asset for our team.
So we can ask why Gordon didn’t have the same attitude as our former BB Warriors. To me, though, a bigger question is why we ended up with an attitude like Gordon’s in our program, and why is appears so hard right now to get some of our younger players or new recruits to buy into CBH’s system.
My answer is that the the dynamic of UCLA basketball has changed, that we are attracting a different type of player, and CBH has become a victim of his own success. I will expand on this point after the jump.
It is key to realize the differences in UCLA basketball when CBH took over and where it is now. When CBH came in, we were wallowing in the ashes from the arson job CHP did on us. Aside from tradition, there was nothing particularly distinctive about coming to UCLA at that time. Tradition meant a lot to fans and alums, but not so much to 17 year old basketball prodigies. Ask Bill Walton. As such, the first players CBH got were ones who were willing to put their necks out and try something daring. Obviously they had skill to play D-1 BBall, but they also had something in their makeup that made them want to come to UCLA despite all the uncertainty if offered at the time: a new coach, a new system, a rebuilding program. But it also had potential. I liken it to Brian Price’s attitude when picking UCLA FB over $c* and its limos and titles. As a result, we got pioneers with team-first attitudes and work ethics like JF and AA and LMR and RW and JS and others. Granted, all good players, but some of them could have gone to nearby higher profile programs like Furd or the Standard, or national programs like Duke, MSU, NC, etc. Something in them made them buy-in to CBH and UCLA. Still, with the exception of KL (and we know why he was different), the biggest name recruits in the country, the ones who saw college as a mere stepping stone to the NBA, the ME-first guys, didn’t come to UCLA those first formative years of CBH’s reign. They still wanted the biggest flashiest stage that would showcase themselves first. But those guys who did come, their attitude, and CBH’s system produced results that speak for themselves.
Jump forward a few years, UCLA is now a marquis program. UCLA goes to 3 straight Final 4’s. UCLA sends multiple players, some previously unheralded (LRMAM, RW), to the NBA lottery and draft each year. UCLA gets its players lots of press and pub and TV time. UCLA is no longer just a place to learn basetball and grow a program, it is now an opportunity. Those big time HS stars who saw NBA first, and team and personal development second (and education somewhere after), now looked at UCLA differently. Guys like Holliday and Gordon, who would never have given UCLA a thought in CBH’s first year or two, now saw UCLA in a new light. UCLA could be their own personal stepping stone to the NBA, even to the degree where they believed CBH's system would change to showcase them, and not vice-versa. I guess I can’t blame the players for looking at UCLA that way, same as I can’t blame CBH for bringing them in. On the surface, they seemed like great kids and their BBall talent was something any coach would have killed for. As it turns out, they were the wrong fit for our program. In retrospect, the differences between the priorities and work ethic of an Afflalo and Collison and the Prince, compared to many of the new guys, is having a crippling effect on UCLA basketball.
It is important for UCLA and CBH to recognize this culture shift around our program and learn from it. Because CBH and his philosophy are here to stay, it will be critical to separate the Hollidays and Gordons from the true BB Warriors who rebuilt this program a few years ago. While I think CBH could stand a touch more flexibility, the main thing going forward is finding guys with heart like LMR and PAA, and hidden talent like LRMAM and RW, and upside like DC and AA, and devotion to a program and its history like KL. We can’t be blinded by talent alone. The combination of those players and CBH’s system is what returned us to prominence, and that is what is lacking in our current slip. It remains to be seen how all of our new players fit. Guys like RN and ML seem to have the right makeup. Where will Bobo and JA and TH and MM and the others fit? Are these players and our incoming recruits coming to UCLA for the team, or simply for themselves?
Obviously there are some overlaps in the timeline with the players who did come in (Ariza, Stanback) or ones we avoided (Sidney), and the case isn’t black and white. It’s the large gray area that makes this hard. But when you throw a great party, pretty much everyone wants to come. We have to be more careful who we invite. It’s clear that UCLA’s place in the college basketball landscape has changed. CBH needs to make sure that the attitude and ethic and goals that our incoming recruits bring with them have not.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Some great points here gb
It really is a matter of finding the right combination where we can mix in some very talented players with great work ethic (See AA, DC, RW, JF) with diamonds in the rough who will dedicate themselves to playing “team” ball (See PAA, LMR, LRMAM of the world).
I am really hoping Anderson, Lee and perhaps even Bobo will learn a lesson from what has transpired in recent weeks. Otherwise, we will have to move on without them.
I think there is a tradeoff
in the current era between building consistently good teams every year, and having national title caliber teams every few years with some fallow periods in between.
If you want consistently solid teams, you eschew the superstar talents and focus on 3 and 4 year players. If you want a shot at a national title, you (probably) can’t do it without some one-and-done level talent.
Kevin Love is an exception, in that he was clearly one-and-done but comes from a grounded NBA famiy and had a sense of college basketball history. Achieving something at UCLA meant something to him. JH is probably more typical of the one-and-done player in his attitude; and finding one-and-done talent that measures up academically is already difficult enough.
I’m think CBH is still working out (as are other coaches in the country) exactly how to manage their rosters and recruiting in the one-and-done era; and injuries make a huge difference as well. One random ‘what if’ tangent might ask, what if Ced Bozeman hadn’t gotten injured in 2004-5? JF plays backup that year and doesn’t leave after his sophomore year. We probably don’t go to the Final Four in 05-06 without Ced, but have JF and AA together as juniors the following year with DC on the bench and RW further down the bench or getting some time at the 3? Or maybe not even coming to UCLA?
I definitely think the one-and-done rule hurts us. It means some elite athletes raise the competitive talent level in the NCAA, but most of them are ineligible to play for us, and those players are less interested in learning to play team basketball at UCLA. Contrast going to somewhere like Memphis, where you can tear it up on highlight reels in meaningless games and academic qualifications are optional.
Except no one-and-done led team has won a championship yet
This isn’t so directed at you britishbruin, but I’m just tired of people making the false argument that CBH (1) needs to recruit elite level talent to win a championship, and (2) CBH cant recruit these players. Both of these arguments are patently false if you actually take the time to look at the facts instead of just mere complaints.
Here are the teams who have won championships since the one-and-done rule
08 – North Carolina – led by juniors and seniors, no freshman or sophomores left following that year
07 – Kansas – led by upperclassmen, no freshman left early, one sophomore left following that year
06 – Florida – led by juniors, no freshman or sophomores left following that year
05 – Florida – led by sophomores, no freshman or sophomores left following that year
Hmm, see a trend. Teams that won championships weren’t teams led by Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, Greg Oden, Tyreke Evans or Michael Beasley. They were won by teams with solid upperclassmen. Its also the same reason that Kansas or UNC is likely to win the championship this year and not Kentucky.
In fact, if anything, the higher level recruits (KL and JH) CBH has had, the worse the team has gotten. So please, can we stop this whole “in order to win CBH needs to recruit top level talent” complaint, because the truth is, he doesn’t.
I appreciate your points
but (a) the 05 season was prior to the one-and-done rule; the first class of one-and-dones was led by Oden/Durant, iirc
(b) the 06 Florida team was a bizarre entity, with 4 good NBA-potential players all deciding to come back; you can’t exactly rely on being able to pull that off as a coach; and if not for that unlikely situation, the championship may well have been won by Greg Oden / Mike Conley jr’s Ohio State team that made it to the championship game.
© the 07 Kansas team were lucky that Brandan Rush had to withdraw from the prior draft due to injury, as he otherwise wouldn’t have returned; again, it’s hard to recruit someone with the hope they get injured at the end of their sophomore season and return as an NBA potential junior. And they won in overtime against a Memphis team led by one-and-done Derrick Rose.
(d) the 08 North Carolina team is the best team to support your contention. The holy grail should be to recruit players who project to be dominant college players without NBA star potential, aka Tyler Hansborough.
Ahh, I see, so it all comes down to luck and not recruits
And I vehemently disagree with your 06 situation. If the Florida guys didn’t come back, we wouldn’t be having this conversation as DC and AA would have won CBH his first championship and raised banner 12. So lets not get into “what ifs” and luck. I deal in facts, and the facts are that no freshmen led team has won a championship (save Carmelo’s Syracuse team, which was before the one and done rule) in the last decade.
Experience wins championships. That, and a little luck never hurts.
lol
You can’t use arguments about ‘this decade’ to describe the one-and-done era; the whole point is that a different level of freshmen are being forced to play for a year since the one-and-done rule came into effect.
As Chris09 says, too few data points for either of us to be able to make definitive predictions about the future.
But I think we can agree that if you aren’t going to have one-and-done players, you need to keep the bulk of your talented players around to be juniors and seniors. Perhaps if someone had managed to injure JF or RW before the draft, they could have stayed around like Brandan Rush rather than leaving after their sophomore seasons?
Ahh, so too little data to prove my facts, but enough to conclude that CBH is hurt by it. Got it.
While we are thinking of hypos, what if the NCAA did its job and ruled players (Rose) ineligible before they play instead of letting them play and make money for the NCAA. If it weren’t for that, the most talented team in modern UCLA history (KL, DC, RW, LRMAM) wins Howland his first championship.
I agree with you that you need to keep great players around for multiple years. This means not recruiting one-and-done players since they (as history has shown) do not produce championships at the same rate as veteran teams. CBH has an amazing feat already on his resume going to 3 straight final fours. Remember, of the 300+ teams in D1 basketball, only 1 wins the championship each year. To be one of the four teams that had a chance at that for 3 straight years is a remarkable achievement that it seems so many Bruin fans (not necessarily you) have forgotten very quickly.
so are you saying
that each year we should look to recruit the best players with lower ceilings or fewer physical gifts and then hope they stay that one extra year? When you talk about not recruiting the one-and-dones, how do you know which is which? Tyler Hansborough, Wayne Ellington and Tywon Lawson were all ranked in the top 10 in their high school class.
I have no problems with CBH's recruiting
I would have CBH do exactly as he has done. The freshman class has a lot of potential and looks like it will be around for a few years. I don’t think the failure of the sophomore class is as big as exaggerated as it is still a young season and has more to do with the players themselves as opposed to CBH.
With re to one and dones, there really is only about 5 or so players each year on average that have the possibility of going to the NBA. I think getting players like Love and Josh Smith who seem to have their heads on straight is fine.
I am arguing for the status quo. Obviously you think CBH hasn’t done a good enough job recruiting and needs to change. So what do you think?
If you're suggesting that I don't like what CBH has done
you’re wrong. Way wrong. I’m totally satisfied with CBH as a coach and recruiter. I’d just argue that you can’t compare apples to oranges when suggesting that Beasley couldn’t win a title at K State etc. The only other high calliber recruit on that squad was Billy Walker (and he had taken a few steps back from his high flying AAU days due to injuries). Even the talented squad that Rose had surrounding him at Memphis was nowhere near the squad Kansas had in terms of where the players were ranked coming out of high school. After a little research:
Mario Chalmers 12
Brandon Rush 13
Russell Robinson 27
Darrell Arthur 16
Darnell Jackson 54
Sherron Collins 21
Sasha Kaun 34
That was Jayhawks top 7 players in ‘07-’08 and their respective rankings coming out of high school.
Proof positive
Character, brains and fellowship gets coaches fired. Talent gets coaches extensions and shoe deals.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Agree
Honestly feel UCLA beats Memphis if Roll isn’t hurt. He spaces the floor, but is also a really nice entry passer to the post. Dog gone timing.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
you have no problems with CBH's recruiting?
Then what was the point of this long description of how CBH needs “to recognize this culture shift around our program and learn from it”,
“it will be critical to separate the Hollidays and Gordons from the true BB Warriors who rebuilt this program a few years ago”
“We have to be more careful who we invite”
?
Please explain what your article is if not a suggestion of how CBH needs to change his approach.
That's my quote
Right now, britishbruin, who would you rather have on our floor and in our locker room, the highly touted and physically gifted Drew Gordon, or a less heralded guy like Lorenzo Mata-Real?
I was thrilled when guys like Holiday and Gordon committed to UCLA. Five years ago, I bet we don’t get a sniff of players like them. But despite their big name talent, I think we would all now agree that Gordon, and probably Holiday, were not the right fit for our program.
I am fine with CBH’s recruiting in the big picture. But he has a pretty strict system that isn’t for just any talented player. UCLA’s success has opened the door to more recruiting misses, and he will need to look past talent and consider the intangibles more carefully.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
No worries.
Thats the one drawback about SBN, you cant delete. Believe me, I’ve misposted many times and have wanted to delete but haven’t been able to.
One way to delete
Rip on Nestor and get oneself banned.
It’s a big step, but effective.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
:-)
Will take that under advisement. It is possible I have neither the talent nor the character to be a Bruin…
Yeah, and if Florida's team doesn't all come back ......
Maybe UCLA advances to the Finals and wins it all. God how I love what ifs.
what if AA came back
and our starting lineup had been DC, RW, AA, LRMAM and KL, could anyone argue the greatness of that squad? Would it have been the best defensive team in NCAA history? So in response to a quastion posed earlier, yes luck plays a big factor in winning NCAA titles.
and how about
if that team hadn’t had the one-and-done talent of KL? still convinced?
Too few data points
IMO to determine what composition of upperclassmen and one-and-done’s is ideal for winning national titles. NCAA basketball is so competitive with so many different teams and coaching styles that it is probably impossible to tell. And where do you draw the line between preferring the experienced senior or the talented nba bound freshmen? Surely no one was clamoring for LMR to replace KL in the starting line up that year, my point here being that every team’s situation is going to be too unique (as will be their tourney results) to make this generalization.
Then there’s also just the sheer probability of a one-and-done team winning, with the teams without them far outnumbering the teams possessing them.
Syracuse...
I remember a young fella named Carmelo Anthony leading the Orange to the NCAA title.
In this era of basketball the top programs have to be willing to take on the elite level players and all that involves. I’d certainly take my chances in winning big one year with a Derrick Rose or John Wall. I wouldn’t trade in the year we had with Kevin Love either. It’s just a neccessary evil.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Thank you for this, 11.
Not sure how Carmelo achievement as a one and done freshman got overlooked but I’m glad you posted this.
Agreed on all points. The Kevin Love era was short and sweet.
33 Wins. Yeah, I said it.
I beg to differ
You win because of talent, I don’t believe there’s an observer here that feels differently. Whether you agree with the manner that Rose or Wall gain eligibility or the way their recruitment was handled does nothing to detract from their stunning talent level. UCLA hasn’t had an electric athlete like that since Baron Davis (Westbrook was a diamond in the rough, I’m talking about highly celebrated prep players entering the program).
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
I have no problem going after "electric" athletes
However, I don’t want “electric” athletes with the kind of baggage Rose and Wall on UCLA. If you love athletes like that you are better of schools that highlighted OJ2. The fact that you bring up the names of those 2 make you look completely ignorant when it comes to world of big time recruiting in college hoops.
Just an opinion
I believe UCLA would admit their good fortune in discovering both Collison and Westbrook, both players were thought to be bench players that might become role players. I’m totally in tune with what’s going on out there – the handlers, shoe companies, AAU coaches, etc. – I’m not naive. I also understand that Kevin Love came with much the same whispers. You can twist it any way you want, any player considered ready for the NBA after HS will have people looking out for their best interest.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Love didn't come here
with kind of baggage OJ Mayo or Derrick Rose did. Don’t bring that kind of bullsh!t on BN again. Consider it as a warning.
11 Banners
If you ever attack UCLA basketball or anyone associated with UCLA basketball based on hoop “articles” from Dan Wetzel (who has a history of launching baseless attacks on Coach Wooden), you will be gone. If you want to debase UCLA student athletes by comparing them someone like OJ Mayo, you can find another internet forum to spread that garbage. You will not get another warning on BN. Thank you.
LOL
Collison and Westbrook weren’t brought in here to be bench players or role players. I think UCLA would admit their good fortune in finding future All Pac-10 before anyone else did.
And yes, I am talking before they officially became All Pac-10.
Oh UCLA you sweet bitch, you've BRUINed me for anything else.
DC was the CIF-SS player of the year
I think what hurt DC in his recruiting ranking was that the committed at the start of his junior season (along with Etiwanda teammate Jeff Pendergraph to ASU) to avoid distractions during the season. He was solid as a junior and as a senior was absolutely dominate, being named the CIF-SS player of the year. Of course, this was before the recent realization that there are a ton of high quality recruits (both basketball and football) in San Bernardino and Riverside counties. However, credit CBH for recognizing DC’s talent before anyone else.
Other random trivia, DC’s Etiwanda team beat JF’s Taft team in JF’s last game in high school. IIRC, JF had something like 37 points, but DC made a dagger 3 to win the game.
Ah
I didn’t know about DC committing to ASU. I did know about DC defeating JF’s Taft team however, and myself projected DC to ultimately develop into a better point guard than Farmar – which is a projection I still stand behind.
In fact, I’d even go so far as to say that DC is already a better pro than Farmar. Actually, I don’t think I’d get many arguments.
Oh UCLA you sweet bitch, you've BRUINed me for anything else.
Pendergraph commited ASU, DC commited to UCLA
They were teammates at Etiwanda and committed at the same time their junior year. Sorry for the confusion.
I agree with you re DC vs. JF. In fact, I would say DC is playing better than RW now too. Here is my unofficial UCLA Point Guard U pecking order: Baron, DC, RW, JF, Earl, JH. When you look at a list like that, you gotta feel for JA and the pressure he must feel to fit in with that list.
Collison
His only other offer was San Diego State. I used to live in Rancho Cucamonga when DC was in high school. Collison was not as highly regarded as Farmar by any stretch. DC turned out to be something much more and is playing at a high level for New Orleans.
The jump Westbrook made between his freshman and sophomore seasons is on the biggest in recent memory. He was on nobody’s radar until he showed he could handle point when DC was injured.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Jaron Rush, Ray Young, Andre Patterson, Cedric Bozeman, Ed Burns
Were allhighly celebrated, stunning talent level athletes.
by AllHailMightyBruins on Dec 3, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
Evan Burns
My bad.
He committed to UCLA then transferred to SDSU.
by AllHailMightyBruins on Dec 3, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
Only reason I know of him
Married With Children. There was an episode that featured him.
Mitchell Butler
just off the top of my head
There's no one in the world that wants to beat UCLA more than _______.
I imagine Howland would have recruited ...
Bozeman, Butler and Young. Don’t think he would have touched Rush. Andre Patterson would have had issues. WTH is Ed Burns?!
Marquis Burns
Ultra athletic bone headed guard that eventually transferred to New Mexico State.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Evan Burns
Mcdonalds all american from 2002 or so. I’m kind of a recruit junkie.
by AllHailMightyBruins on Dec 3, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
Butler just couldn't shoot
Had a decent NBA career. Can’t knock what he made himself into.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
true
i was just trying to name some crazy athletic players, you can’t deny he was extremely athletic
There's no one in the world that wants to beat UCLA more than _______.
Wasn't Dan Gadzuric the top recruit in the country?
I remember that we signed Dan, Young (California high school BB player of the year), Rush and Moiso as the nation’s #1 class. Billy Knight and Barnes might have been in there too.
Bruin-4-Life!!!
Surprised Ray Young didn't become a top pro
He had all the physical gifts and had a really nice floor game. Jerome Moiso just didn’t want it bad enough, we all know the story of Rush. Man, Lavs could recruit.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Um
Really nice floor game? You’re being serious now yes?
Oh UCLA you sweet bitch, you've BRUINed me for anything else.
Serious...
Ray had a great handle, could finish at the rim, had good court vision and was a solid defender. He wasn’t the most heady ball player, but he was gifted, I remember him single-handedly beating U of A in the Pac 10 Tourney.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
1998 - First Fab Five Class
didn’t turn out like Michigan’s. JaRon Rush, Dan Gadzuric, and Ray Young were McDonald’s AA. They were joined by Matt Barnes and Jerome Moiso.
Moiso left after two years as a lottery pick. Rush just left and went undrafted. Young never developed a jump shot until his senior year.
It’s good to see Gadzuric and Barnes still in the NBA. Gadzuric was having a good career as Bucks starting C until they drafted Bogut. But lucky Dan, he signed like a 6 yr $36mil contract before he lost his starting job.
yeah he could
right up until players realized staying at UCLA for 4 years would make them no better than they started.
Go Bruins!
Big difference: Anthony went to college willingly
Anthony was well before the one-and-done rule was implemented. He could have gone to the NBA right away, and many were surprised he didn’t. However, he chose to go to Syracuse and won a championship there. His position is entirely different than players like Beasley, Rose, and Wall who have been forced to go to college when they don’t want to.
You're correct
I was trying to point out that recruiting players of that skill level are worth the risks of whatever misses or soft spots in recruiting they might cause.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
it seems to me that part of the equation involves
loading up on talent to the point where top recruits are essentially forced to wait and learn for at least a year before they crack the starting lineup. Some would argue that modern kids aren’t willing to wait but look at an example like Ed Davis at UNC. He came in as the #15 recruit in the country and couldn’t crack the starting lineup bu he played a solid role in helping deliver a title.
right
I think that is particularly true given CBH’s style of play.
Ideally I think you want to find players with talent who recognize they need at least 2 years of college ball (e.g. because they still have growing to do) before heading to the NBA.
Bravo! I've been wondering about that....
I had a gut feel that this was the case but was too lazy to do the research. Thanks. And the point you make is really this (I think): championships are won by teams not by individual stars. Its true in the pros as well. Even MJ needed DR and others.
before the rule
but syracuse won with melo and he was a one and done
Across The Face
For want of a nail a shoe was lost
Far too many what if’s to make any real sense. But sure, what if we had gotten John Wall?
If we had gotten John Wall...
We would be on probation within 3 years.
by AllHailMightyBruins on Dec 3, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
We won't sniff an athlete like that...
Unless we change our offensive focus and CBH decides to open the floor. You are absolutely right that Wall, Sidney etc = NCAA probation.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
I think you mis-stated things a bit
We wouldn’t sniff an athlete like that until the guy who succeeds Coach Howland decides to abandon the standards which have been part of UCLA forever. Coach Howland wouldn’t do it, I’m sure.
Perhaps what's changed is CBH and not the kids
To me 17 year olds are no different than our times, maybe up to the 60s. What;s changed in a 17 year old world other then the amenities to express themselves via the World Wide Web, clothes, some music. They want to belong, feel good, express themselves, be popular, get sexed up—what’s new. They are fundamentally the same as we were when we were young. Maybe CBH has lost his handle on these kids rather than these kids being any different.
"losing a handle" of things does not equate to "forget"
Do you think a shooter forgot how to shoot when he looses this “touch”
Haha
One of the most bizarre posts that I have read. CBH is not JoePa or Bowden, walking around mumbling to himself. It’s not like he has been here for two generations, and the internet, twitter, and cell phones snuck up on him. I’m sure CBH would laugh at anyone willing to ask him if he has lost touch with this generation of players.
by AllHailMightyBruins on Dec 3, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
If you have ever talked to any
of our BBall players you will know that CBH is a true mentor to many of them. He, more so than most coaches I am sure, is entirely in touch with his players and a big part of their lives. Advances in Technology aren’t going to get in the way of that.
You are right Allmighty, this has to be one of the outright silliest notions posited on BN in a while.
B.F.
17 year olds
One never loses the ability to communicate or relate with people they care about. There has to be a mutual level of respect for dialogue to be meaningful and in Howland’s case the players must all have a respect for the man appointed to lead them. If your authority is questioned and challenged, swift actions are neccessary to not lose the entire team. Howland is solid as a man and coach. I trust his ability to understand “todays” players. The argument is pretty ridiculous.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
I'm just gonna throw it out there
I’ll give Howland all the time in the world. If recruiting runs the program, I’ll let him recruit.
There's no one in the world that wants to beat UCLA more than _______.
by ucla13_usc9 on Dec 3, 2009 3:19 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Explaining our current situation
isn’t easy. gbruin’s suggestion: — that UCLA is in a sense the victim of its own success — might well apply to JH and DG. But some recruits are staying, so perhaps CBH is still successfully communicating his concepts to some youngsters. If gbruin is right, this very difficult season may well supply the needed corrective. Recruiting just isn’t an exact science. Though I haven’t attempted the research, I would guess that many famous coaches have blundered badly from time to time in their otherwise distinguished careers when it comes to bringing together the right mix of talent-laden stars and competent role players. My money is on CBH to make the most of what we’ve got this season (which isn’t over yet) and to rebuild an outstanding program in the future.
Does CBH need to change or not?
I think he’s still feeling out the one-and-done dynamics, and (as someone mentioned on a previous thread) is still working out how to consolidate success vs building up a team from the bottom (like at Pitt and then his early years with us). I have faith in his ability to work it out.
I don’t understand gbruin’s position. He says in the comment threads that he would have “CBH do exactly as he has done” in the future, but his original post seems to be a warning about how CBH needs to recruit players with character over talent, and “we need to be more careful who we invite” to be a UCLA Bruin.
I have faith, too, bb
And I’m not saying simply to recruit character over talent. No one wins without talent.
CBH’s system requires selfless players who will buy-in to his system. Because we now have a bigger pool of recruits available, it’s harder to distinguish who has talent and is looking at the quickest road to the pros versus who has talent plus the intangibles that made the earlier BB Warriors so good and the teams so successful.
And I don’t think I ever wrote “CBH do exactly as he has done” – maybe that was someone else?
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
yes yes I'm an idiot
I am quietly giving myself at least a 2 practice suspension for failure to grasp the fundamentals of reading…
except one final set of comments...
…. which is that…
I don’t understand why a Drew Gordon (or anyone else) would think that UCLA was an easy place for an individualist to jump to the NBA, given the team oriented offense and defense that should be fairly obvious to any recruit watching CBH’s teams. It seems like this should discourage slackers from wanting to come to UCLA, and encourage hardworkers to see what has been achieved by RW, LRMAM et al and sign up.
But perhaps it encourages the truly delusional – people who think that it is they who will shape CBH, rather than the other way round. Drew Gordon may be a case in point.
Perhaps CBH needs to take someone from the UCLA psychology department on recruiting trips…
Don Maclean had an interesting take on PMS today....
He thinks we are just in a recruiting cycle where guys like Westbrook, AA, DC, PAA ect. all overachieved beyond their rankings in highschool and the current class of highly rated sophs are basically underachieving. I tend to agree.
Agreed
I saw him calling the Butler UCLA game at the Anaheim Convention Center. His body language betrayed his great displeasure at seeing Mike Roll commit the foul which gave Butler the victory.
Oh UCLA you sweet bitch, you've BRUINed me for anything else.
Lady Bruin Ball
Just finished watching the Lady Bruins fall hard at Kansas. Go ahead 3 was called off due to an illegal screen. Wow! What a tough loss. Those Bruins players play awesome perimeter defense. JA & ML should check that out!
Maybe CBH has been a victim of his own success
Like a kid who just got the keys to the candy shop and just started crabbing all the shiniest candies without taking time to realize those weren’t necessarily the yummiest ones.
I think Howland has realized his error and will find good guys in the future. I know there are plenty out there.
Just because players are talented or heralded doesn’t mean they are lazy or have bad attitudes. There are plenty of good players who want to join good basketball programs for all the right reasons even if they do plan to only stay 1 year. I think Howland just did a bad recruiting job. I also wonder if maybe his system takes too long to implement given the current state of college basketball.
And what was wrong with Holiday? As I remember, he was just a little slow to pick up the system (and probably to get his work ethic in line), but by the later half of the season he was playing pretty good defense.
If Bochy coached the Warriors Bengie Molina would start every game at PG.
Don Maclean
I love that dude.
I’m hoping that Ben 2.0 shows up sometime during this season or next or next.
Ben 2.0 is the Ben that crafts WINNING strategies and game plans
that MATCH his available talent. Great coaches make those kinds of adjustments.
Great coaches define/adjust their systems to what’s available. Maximize what you have.
If Ben doesn’t or can’t do that… I’m HANDING Maclean the job if he feels he can do it.
Again, I have no problem with Howland serving here for 30 years if he wants.
I just want him to grow, make adjustments in his own approach to the game,
and use guys in the most natural ways they’re gifted.
Let’s face it… UCLA Basketball is a stepping stone to professional basketball.
As soon as we embrace that reality, we can figure out ENTERTAINING, fun,
exciting ways to win. Make 8th -9th graders set their sights on playing hoops at UCLA,
the NBA factory. (Didn’t KL say he knew he was commin since the 8th?) Return to clobbering the schools we’re supposed to clobber. And strike fear and trepidation into the other elite programs. When the next big wave of change comes in, UCLA is ahead of that curve too!
Oh, and please spare me the “student-athlete-they-must-graduate” thing.
Troy Aikman is our new standard! Go get your Hall of Fame career, then c’mon
back whenever you want! You are always part of the Bruin Family!
(I can’t believe how forward I’ve come in my own thinking, as I was sooo peeved
at Tommy Maddox and Tracy Murray for bailing early. I had banned them as Bruins
back then. Now, I’m like OK!) Thanks for the vine. lol
I love MacLean
and watched his whole career from the floor.
But we jokingly called him On MacLean. On for his shot, and also because he had no D.
On a serious note, Howland has already proven he has WINNING strategies. We don’t need to hand the job anywhere.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
Agree
If UCLA is going to hang their hat on its basketball program, then they might as well go all in and assemble the best group of athletes on a year to year basis. They can do this without lowering academic standards or tarnishing legacies.
I don’t want Coach Howland going any where, but his brand of offensive basketball isn’t appealing to guys that want to run the floor. For some to say play hard defense and the open court opportunities will come is simplistic. The reason UCLA fell short against Florida and Memphis was offensive execution.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
After three final fours in a row, you would think
top players, especially budding NBA stars and/or big men, would be dying to come to UCLA ahead of almost any other school. Period.
That has not happened. Not even close, despite the highly overrated classes we have brought in the past two years.
Nor has CBH recruited the kind of players that are suited to play his slow-down, Big East style, power basketball.
And no doubt, we have no serious D1 point guard on the team now. None. Based on what I’ve seen the only serviceable point guard we have is a walk on, Hamid. I actually like Hamid; he has been a pleasant surprise when he does get in, but let’s face it. We are really hurting at the guard position, the most important position per CJW, may he live to 100.
So who is to blame for this? Some want to blame JH for being a one and done who really should have stayed, but even now that he’s gone on to the NBA he is still a huge question mark, even if he did stay.
I’m not sure why myself. It may just be bad luck, a down cycle as Maclean opines, or it may be CBH, or it may be that in today’s world not many future NBA players want to play slow-down, Big East, power basketball. I simply don’t know.
Because CBH is 100% true blue, and clearly 1000 times more knowledgeable than me and certainly more knowledgeable than most coaches, I hope he can figure it out. Because until he figures out a system that will work for these players and their talents, this may be a repeat of CBH’s first season.
I would suggest experimenting with what worked for Wooden’s early championship, small-sized teams, with not only a zone press but also a zone defense half court and a more up-tempo, transition/fast break basketball. But without vastly improved guard play nothing will work, period. I hope I’m wrong, believe me.
As for Gordon, with his apparent attitude, it may be addition by subtraction. Let’s hope so.
GO BRUINS. SHOCK THE BASKETBALL WORLD. BEAT KANSAS!
It's complicated
We might not want to admit it, but there are some other programs that have as rich a history as ours and have better facilities too. Players, I hate to call these young men kids, want to go where their buddies go, where they can showcase their skills and win. UCLA is getting its fair share of quality players. Outside of Love and Holiday, the program hasn’t shown a track record of getting the absolute stud of a recruiting class in a long time. That’s no knock on Howland at all.
UCLA hasn’t won a championship since 1995 and most of these young men are more aware of UNC, UConn, Duke and Kansas. In some cases Kentucky and Memphis have more cache. Lavin made UCLA a regional program. Howland has elevated Bruins basketball back to where it should be.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
I think your point about facilities
is important. As holy a place as Pauley is, it’s obvious our practice situation and even our arena are pretty outdated compared to most other high-level programs. That will change in a few years, but for now, we’re not competitive in that particular aspect.
formerly AZBruin
I would be shocked
if not having the nicest facilities actually stopped a recruit from coming here. Should our athletes have a nicer arena? Of course. But I doubt that is a selling point giving our history, coaching staff, recent success, and knack for producing NBA talent.
I'm not sure the full court zone press would work against modern ball handlers
I remember when Pistol Pete Maravich came into town (at the Sports Arena, I think) and dazzled the crowd with his ability to dribble the ball BETWEEN HIS LEGS (no, I’m not kidding, he could actually do that.)
Now, everyone in the world can do that sort of ball handling (everyone except me,) I don’t think guys are intimidated by pressure as much now as when Coach Wooden took Coach Norman’s advice and installed the full court zone press.
Absolutely unbelievable
And after a while, everyone (including the other team) was just waiting for the dam to burst.
people are goin nuts here
cbh and our program are going through a tough patch right now. early exit talent drain, couple of recruiting misses, transfers, and injuries have taken a toll. people seem to dismiss where our beloved program was before cbh got here and what he has been able to do, with the same system we all complain about. please remember how many years coach wooden was at ucla before he won it all.
Across The Face
this post is spot on
I love cbh and bruin basketball.
He has a unique culture that he instills and it requires a certain type of player – hungry, chip on the shoulder, hate to lose, etc. – that gives the motivation to work hard and sacrifice easy success for the pain of discipline.
He made bad decisions on holiday, anderson, gordon. That is a fact in retrospect, it doesn’t mean we are in a long term crisis. Why did he make bad decisions WHEN HE NEVER did before? I think gb’s argument that it is because he attracted new types of recruits that he didn’t have experience with is compelling…he may be stubborn but I guarantee you he has learned and is already better
by glassbruin on Dec 4, 2009 7:53 AM PST via mobile reply actions
CBH's system
is tough to learn, and is best suited for physically mature players. Although this team have a few of those guys in the seniors, they are not complemented by a guard who can ferociously defend the perimeter and a center who knows how to hedge properly. Those two things seem to be crucial to his system. Talent is, in a way, rendered unnecessary in this system, if you can execute the defense properly. For all the talent that these young players have, they cannot play within the system yet, but it will happen eventually.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
i think he can attract the talent
and he has done so.what he hasn’t been able to do is keep it very long. i tend to think that is a thing of circumstance that has very little to do with cbh. roy williams didn’t heavily affect hansborough’s or lawson’s decision or the great duke teams( i hate duke) of the past, the laetthers and hills, those guys made their own decision mainly. when kansas won the year rush stayed another yr was because he busted his leg before the tryouts if i remember correctly and they wouldn’t have won without him. really i think it’s a matter of luck in that regard.
i get as frustrated with the O as anyone else, good times and the bad. but i’m not sure that’s an offensive scheme by cbh, but the players who get tired playing hard D and dribble around to recover, but that is just my impression. maybe he could sub more, but you knw what, he’s learning here still. cbh is allowed to make mistakes, in spite of it all, i’m all in with him.
i also think to rigidly distinguish between gritty payers who buy in to a system and those with nba eyes is a bit too generalized. aa, jf, kl and all our studs came here with nba aspirations. ucla was a stepping stone for all of them, that is not a bad thing. the problem is the kids that thin thy’re already ready and think they can just bide their time. those are the ones we don’t really want or need. there’s plenty of great players with good heads on their shoulders, that can sac up and want to learn how to play nba style D. where else besides ucla can you average 8 pts throughout your career and still be a 2nd round pick and start your rookie year?(the prince). we get players ready for the nba and that is a fact.
Across The Face
Am I the only one that thinks WE are ALL overreacting
Let’s rewind for a little more than a week. Specifically, I was feeling we were having a down year but recruiting was going good: Josh Smith had just signed. It looked like CBH was on path to reload to make another big run. The program, if not the year, was in great shape.
3 losses (with 2 ugly games) and a surprising announcement by Drew Gordon and it does feel like the sky is fallling.
Lets all calm down. We dont need to question the program at the level we are.
A different spin: Howland is a great judge of talent and did not believe that JH should go to the NBA (because he was not ready and would make even more money later). We will see but early evidence is he was probably right.
Spin 2: Point Guard recruiting, CBH is strong. And given star players expectations to play significant minutes early in their career, is anyone surprised that CBH could not get other point guards while DC was here AND while JH was here. I think he should be congratulated for getting JA, even if he has weaknesses, given where we have been with point guards lately! No one better was going to come and JA may still shine.
Another spin: CBH is a strong recruiter. Not every 5 star prospect has 5 star careers. But CBH has a pretty good track record since he has been here.
Yes, keeping your stars for extra years is the key to winning a national championship. I submit to you that means WINNING the championship is almost random and clearly beyond the control of the coach. There was no way anyone knew that Tyler would stay at NC, or the studs at Florida etc They made personal decisions that were not foreseeable to the coaches ahead of time.
Yes DG left. I am personnally saddened by that for us and for him. But life happens. NC had a player transfer etc.
So this year is going to stink. But the sky is not falling.
by Bruin Dad and Grad on Dec 4, 2009 11:37 AM PST reply actions
Some overreacting, yes. But, conversation about the program is positive...
I was under the false assumption that last year was our blip year – a predictable dip following three consecutive Final Four appearances. Observant Bruins fans could see the flaws in last year’s team: uneven play on the road, difficulty containing dribble penetration, long dry stretches on offense, lack of rebounding. Those same flaws are now alarms this year.
I’m a proud UCLA alumnus and will always support the school and athletic programs. I’m not unrealistic about where the basketball program is, where Ben has taken it or what the possibilities are for the school moving forward. But, we’ve had six full season of Benball and, undeniably, the man can coach defense. I’ve yet to see the consistency on offense that it will take to clear the last hurdle. Everyone recognizes that winning the NCAA title is equal parts talent and luck, but a huge part of that equation is the ability to score. It amazes me that UCLA still struggles facing zone defenses and the team goes on long scoring droughts if the defense isn’t causing turnovers. That is not just this year, that has been a common theme during Howland’s tenure. The only season the team was machinelike on offense was with Kevin Love at center. If the Bruins intend to play from the inside out, fine, just recruit more refined players at the post.
Developing an offensive identity is every bit as important as garnering one on defense. I’m not certain it’s all about a lack of talent, because the team has had several players move on to play professionally so the that cannot be the answer. Our floor spacing and movement off the ball isn’t very good – that’s a coaching issue. Again I respect CBH and what he’s brought, in no way shape or form would I want another person at the helm. UCLA has the same caliber athletes UNC, Kansas and Duke has, let’s be unafraid to play offense like those teams do.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
Everyone has already said this, but
Dude, we got to three straight Final Fours doing it Howland’s way. Along the way, we beat some very talented teams, including ones that probably had more athleticism than we did. We would have anywhere from 1-3 titles from that era if it were not for bad luck and other teams just playing better than us on that given day. TRUST BEN HOWLAND, HE KNOWS WHAT HE’S DOING.
His only mistake has been the 2008 recruiting class. It appears that he was going for talent and talent alone with that class, instead of closely looking at things like focus, mindset, loyalty, and determination, like he’s done with every single other recruiting class since he’s been here. Look at the 09 recruiting class, for example. RN was literally put on this Earth to play Ben’s style of ball. So was MM (though we haven’t seen it much yet; trust me, he WILL be a classic Ben Ball Warrior when it’s all said and done). AS probably could have started at center right away at a lesser school, but out of his dedication to Howland and his loyalty he chose to do what was best for the team and redshirt. Point is, Ben’s back on the right track, finding the right guys to fit his style of play. And the last time he did that, we got to three straight Final Fours. His unfortunate bump in the road with the 2008 class is the only reason that we’re struggling right now (guys leaving early and/or underacheiving because they can’t play Ben Ball). Once he’s got the right guys in place, I am 100% positive that we’ll go back to dominating. You should be too.
Also
yes, CBH may have messed up with the 2008 class. All that means is that our rebuilding cycle will be more like 2003-2004 than we expected. This year’s freshman class is looking a lot like Howland’s first one (in terms of attitude, not positions). If he can bring in some quality guards in 2010, we will be right back at the top by the 2011-2012 season
Amen
“… in no way shape or form would I want another person at the helm. "
Preach it, brother!
Absolutely there are challenges
11 Banners I agree with you on many of your issues. I hate watching us pass the ball around on the outside of a zone with little chance we are going to get a good shot off. I wish we were better at getting the ball into the post.
No coach is perfect including CBH. When I am driving to the weeknight games across LA, I do wish we were an offensive oriented team. Quite simply, they are more fun to watch.
But some of the postings are ready to give up on Howland already. Defense wins. Team work wins.
Dont know if we will get to that national championship we all want in the near term (next 5 years) but I think the program is as likely as many others.
by Bruin Dad and Grad on Dec 4, 2009 1:17 PM PST reply actions
Yes, yes and yes
I agree that under Howland UCLA is as capable and as much of a favorite as the usual suspects to hang a banner. This year is an aberration. A tweak in offensive philosophy is all I’m suggesting.
Life is what happens when you're busy making plans.
I submit to you that means WINNING the championship is almost random
Absolutely the truest words spoken on this topic. Too many variables involved to say with any certainty that this or that team will win it all. Hats off to you BD&G.
Yes meant WINNING is almost random
And sorry my replies dont show up as replies. Something about doing the posts while at work?!?!?
by Bruin Dad and Grad on Dec 4, 2009 2:49 PM PST reply actions
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