Proposition to Current Students on the State of the Den
by yarrrp on Feb 3, 2009 8:13 AM PST
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*At the suggestion of N, I'm throwing this up for discussion in as a Fanpost.
I’ve seen propositions here and in the Daily Bruin to expand the student section in Pauley, and while I agree that in theory this could make our homecourt advantage more formidable, I have a few problems with the student section as it is that need to be addressed before we as students deserve more spots in the lower level.
1. The yell crew – They’re trying to get a bigger response out of the Den (a lot of whom are freshmen this year thanks to the cruel, CRUEL lotto system) but not holding up their end of the bargain. I sat on the right side at the Cal game, and the yell crew guy was only relaying about 1 out of 3 cheers down to our end (which is awful because it messes up the timing, and no one wants to cheer when we’re completely out of sync with the middle and left sections). To make matters worse, he seemed to be getting mad at us when we weren’t cheering loudly and in sync with everyone else.
2. The freshmen – Maybe this is me showing my bias, but as a senior who has had the full sports package the last 2 years, and saw it get reduced to half this year, I feel like the Den would be stronger if it had some way of rewarding seniority with at least better chances at tickets. Both of my (also senior) roommates also missed out on games this year thanks to the lotto.
3. The vermin – This is my semi-arbitrary term for certain fans (there’s always at least one standing within earshot of me) who’d rather not cheer for our team to save their vocal cords for saying loud, obnoxious things like “Bench Drago!” or “Do your job Roll!” or “F*** Shipp” every time one makes a real or perceived mistake. I was aware that heckling is part of sports, but I was under the impression that it was directed toward the opposing team, hence a home court advantage. I’ve heard at least one of those sayings and much worse, without fail, at each game I’ve been to this year and last. These “fans” are ignorant, self-important, and ruin the experience for any real Bruin that loves this team and UCLA.
The first two have very simple solutions-
1. More commitment and confidence on the part of the yell crew would go a long way toward managing the crowd. Simple.
2. If we’re gonna have more than 500 students down near the court, we need a better ratio of upperclassmen to freshmen.
The third is more complicated-
3. I don’t think a simple reminder in the handout The Dirt would be enough to make ALL the vermin think twice before spewing their idiotic thoughts to others, but it might help to add some rule along with the no-red-shirt rule that to keep your spot in the Den, you have to cheer like a Bruin. It probably wouldn’t be totally enforceable, but it would add some authority to the true fans around to say respectfully “Save your venom for the other team”.
Rant… over. Sorry that was so long.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Good Points
I want to add one that ties to a discussion we’ve been having in another thread:
The yell crew should try to get all who are watching the game involved. Spreading out and encouraging everyone to cheer is a start.
Running cheers that everyone can do is another step.
Many of the alums KNOW HOW THE 8 CLAP IS SUPPOSED TO SOUND — and will not participate in the rush to ejaculate mutilation that has now come to represent it.
Doing it, and other cheers right will go a long way toward involving more people in making noise — which is essential to creating the true home court advantage.
sjh
The premature 8-clapulation has been totally out of control at least for the past few years...
I had an idea – maybe the drums in the band can accompany 8-claps to regulate the tempo. It would sound pretty good, and there wouldn’t be a crazy bum rush to get to the end.
Also, I’ve noticed that the Den has changed up their routine when the opponent shoots free throws by waiting to shout until just before the shooter releases the ball. Sometimes they don’t start shouting until the ball is already released, but I think it does disrupt the second free throw shot. It would be cool if the Den mixed up their shouting tactics for free throws to throw opposing free throw shooters off kilter, like maybe staying completely silent for one shot, screaming the next, and shouting a couple seconds before the shooter has to release – just something that will make the opposing team uncomfortable.
8 Clap Tempo
The 8 clap is supposed to be crisp, sustained and powerful. When done correctly, it can rock a stadium.
The intended tempo is similar to the one in the song — I can’t recall the name — where in the middle there is an 8 clapp. U rah rah rah, C rah rah rah, L rah rah rah (not some trilled L) A rah rah rah — U -C-L-A, Fight Fight Fight.
Who leads the yells at the games? The Den or the yell leaders?
BTW — when Geoff leads the 8 clap at the FB games, they are slower, but not perfect. Probably too many youngsters rushing to finish.
sjh
I absolutely hate
the “trilled L” as you call it. That must have settled in somewhere between 1997 and 2001. Can’t stand it.
I agree with the post that there needs to be some re-calibration of sorts to create a more hostile environment to opposing teams. Honestly, if I could rank us amongst other Pac 10 venues for “hostile environments”, I think I would be hard pressed to put us in the top 5.
by godblesstyus95 on Feb 3, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
At Orientation in 1999
I vaguely remember them teaching it to us with the LLLLLLLL part. I don’t think I ever heard any other versions, since I only know how to do it with the trilled L.
Yell Crew
Let’s be honest, the Yell Crew this year has been below average. Some of them show no passion and just go through cheers monotonaly (don’t think I spelled that right). Others speak so fast that you can’t understand what they are saying. They have also started stupid new things like 66 pointed out such as the “student speed” 8 clap which just sounds like a big mess and no one even participates with because its over before you know what is going on. The Yell Crew does a decent job of leading yells during the game, but compared to previous years, this is a pretty weak yell crew.
for me the problem
isnt as much the cheers but the distribution of tickets. I understand that the freshman want to get in on it but the fact remains it should go by seniority. In fact 90% of the school thinks it should, but this whole blue/gold package B.S. is really killing it. You get to go to one game a week and its not as if there are no complete blue AND gold packages. I know a second year that got both through the raffle and though I cant hate on her for being lucky, I can hate on the system for screwing it all up this year.
Empty Seats?
Watching on TV, it always appears that Pauley is not full.
I’m wondering if there can be a policy of filling up the seats 5 minutes into the game.
I know people paid for those seats and have a right not to use them, but I’m wondering if having a line of kids who will move in or out — to fill the space, would work.
At the awards ceremonies, they alway have people, all dressed up, who take seats so that the cameras don’t show empties. They move out when the “owners” arrive.
I think it both unfair to the students that alum’s don’t show, and bad for the team that we don’t rock Pauley for it.
sjh
Yes--empty seats
The wife and I had horrible seats (top, top level) for the Stanford game, not that we minded that much. But I would estimate that at least 20% of the top level seats were empty and the same percentage of empty seats for the mid-level section (opposite the students). And those mid-level seats are really nice and must be expensive.
Frankly, I don’t get it. People paid good money for those seats and there are a lot of no-shows. I know that those who cannot attend, or who do not plan to attend, can post their tix for sale on the exchange site, but obviously, those tickets are not being purchased and used. Perhaps they are listing their tickets for sale at too high a price and would prefer to eat the tickets rather than sell them for the market rate.
And I really hate the argument that there are too many things to do in L.A. and that nice weather and Disneyland and whatever are the reasons people cannot spend a few hours watching the game—especially if they have taken the time and money to buy the damn tickets in the first place! On the other hand, the Den was packed. So, there are people (students) who will attend but a lot of other people ae simply blowing the games off.
Pathetic.
Alternatively
they can initiate a policy wherein you lose your spot within or after a predetermined time before/after kickoff. I know of many music halls that requires guests to arrive early, and will not hesitate to give away your seat if you are not seated before the performance begins (Heinz Hall comes to mind).
Although traffic is always a “valid” excuse in LA, perhaps such a measure will force people to actually show up on time…
B.F.
I thought things had sounded a little off at times
but i thought it was maybe just because i have to watch every game on t.v. this year. I’d love it if those in the den were fully commited to chanting on the offensive end, and jumping up and don on every defensive stand.
O.A.
Den
The problem with sustaining cheers and jumping/yelling is that the Den cant sustain it for the extended possessions that we commonly have. Jumping and yelling for 35 seconds straight (which is what our defense strives to force) is near impossible and keeping cheers going when we have stagnant offense that uses the whole shot clock equally just looses momentum. It is easy for Duke fans to stay loud and do their “lets go duke” chant because there possessions only last 10 seconds at most which is much easier to sustain energy through.
Another tough thing is CBH’s timeout habits which has a timeout right before the mandatory timeout. So after sitting around for 3-4 minutes, play resumes for maybe 2 possessions, then you are sitting for another 4. If you watch on TV it isn’t so bad b/c you have commercials, but being in the Den it can really take away your momentum and being “in the game.” Especially for less knowledgeable basketball fans.
So Howland's timeout scheme
not only extinguishes the opponents momentum, but our fans as well? That is actually quite impressive and a small price to pay in my mind.
B.F.
Agree
I never said that I had any problems with CBH coaching or his strategy. I am just saying that the start and stop of play and long possessions makes some of the less die-hard students that make up the Den lose their interest in cheering. Like you though, I am fine with it since CBH obviously knows what he is doing.
Respectfully disagree
I was a student during the horrible (Coach) Hazard years and attended nearly all of the home games. We didn’t do much jumping back then, but we did try to keep up a prolonged amount of yelling during the entire time when we were on defense. We didn’t have much else to cheer about back in those days (because our team was mediocre at best) so it took extra effort to get people off their asses and to actually make some noise.
Voices may be hoarse after the game, but it can be done, IMHO.
I have to agree w/Barnes
As one who yelled, and jumped through the darkest of times for UCLA basketball, I have to concur that it is possible to keep up the noise throughout opposing possessions. While not everyone yelled, and even fewer of us jumped much, it can be done. It is more a matter of will and willingness to leave the game a bit tired and hoarse than of sheer ability.
European soccer fans
will sing and chant for 90 straight minutes with only one break. They have songs in which they’ll jump or dance along to for 4 or 5 minutes. I’ve stood with the Den and had no problem going 35 seconds. That’s a horrible excuse.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Feb 3, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
give and take
dont know if you want to use soccer fans as an example. they’re yelling for 90 minutes because they’re drunk of their arses. same with football here, we can tailgate and junk. dont thin k tailgating all day is a possibility near pauley on a wednesday after classes.
i get your drift, just not the best reference point. i think we really need to get to the unc ticket allocation structure. a certain number of seats are allocated for students and they’re free, you just have to line up for them. our system sucks and is the reason i went to like 2 basketball games in college
Across The Face
They're not all drunk
It’s just a difference in culture. I’ve been to matches and have seen thousands of sober people standing and singing and chanting for 45 minutes before taking a break and going 45 more. To them, singing and chanting is very important to their match day experience. I would expect the same from our students.
UNC students managed to stand and chant for more than 35 seconds in the pre-shot clock era with the four corner offense. Indiana students did it when Bob Knight was running his motion offense. Going for 35 seconds is very do-able.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Feb 3, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions
Rye is correct
While I probably drank more than I should have in college, I was never drunk at b-ball games and still managed to yell for 35 seconds straight along with many other students. And we had to yell for some sucky teams back then, too. it wasn’t easy to work up the energy, but it is doable.
Overall, the Den blows the rest of the crowd at Pauley out of the water. But given that the rest of Pauley is half-asleep and/or knitting and/or reading the TV Guide, it’s up to the Den to carry the load. That’s the way it is.
Not an excuse
I was just giving an explanation on why the Den isn’t as loud as it could be. There are also other factors that we have gone over before including the structure of Pauley and ticket allocations. The fact of the matter is that when you add all those things up, the Den and Pauley are never going to be like Oregon’s Mac Court.
And the European soccer fan comparison is a terrible example. I think RB established that.
left one guilty party out
As has previously been mentioned in this thread, one of the biggest reasons for the lack of atmosphere is that the general public seats are either empty or filled with people who cant even bother to get off their butts and cheer once in awhile. I remember the Miami (OH) game earlier this year when the Den had to chant “Stand Up” during an entire timeout and turn and actually yell at people in the seats to get them to stand and cheer. This was despite the fact that we were clinging to a very narrow lead and it was the final 2 minutes of the game. Honestly, I know that many of these people are alumni donors, but if they don’t even show up and leave their seats empty, they really should be barred from getting them the next year.
Attitude in the upper student section is HORRIBLE this year
I realize we are talking about the lower student section, but having tried and failed multiple years to get season tickets, I am relegated to the upper student section any time I can find tickets to a game. I went to the Arizona game (I wish I could go to more, but just can’t afford it without the student package) and was amazed by the entitled laziness and apathy this year. I was standing near the front of the section and actually got yelled at to sit down by students sitting behind me toward the end of the first half. Nevermind that I couldn’t actually see the game due to the guard rail when sitting. If these people want to sit and watch a game they are more than welcome to go home and watch on TV and give me their season tickets. In the second half, the entire section remained seated, not even standing for the beginning of the half. I and a couple other brave souls tried to stand for a while but we were shouted down again. Ridiculous. As expected I think there is a higher percentage of “vermin” up there, but the cheer crew came up only once or twice the entire game to rally the troops with a quick 8-clap.
by gradstudentbruin on Feb 3, 2009 11:26 AM PST reply actions
That (300-level) attitude not just limited to this year
Due to club obligations which I had during the end of the Lavinoma era (02-03 season), at times I could not get to Pauley within a reasonable time of the student gate opening for Thursday night games, and had to scavenge for decent open seats. On the night of the USC game that season, I got in just before tip-off, and had to sit in what then was the most distant of the upper student sections. The atmosphere was surprisingly apathetic, especially when considering the opponent; the most emotion around came from people behind me who were pissed that I dared to try standing in the student section, with one student on the verge of throwing punches (seriously).
A few things
First, I can see both sides of the upper student section issue. I’ve gone to games up there where I’ve felt uncomfortable standing and yelling when most everyone else is sitting quietly. At the same time, though, I can’t really blame people for not wanting to stand and yell the entire game. I don’t really understand how they can restrain themselves, but I know that some people sit up there intentionally because they don’t want to have to stand. I guess I’d rather see the top section full, even if they aren’t very loud, than be empty like the rest of upper Pauley.
Also, what has gotten on my nerves this year at games is the general inability to clap along with the fight song. By the time we reach the 8-clap in the middle, the crowd is usually so far ahead that their 8-clap ends when the band is just beginning. I guess it probably has to do with the rushing 8-clap syndrome, but I feel like if the crowd can’t even listen to the band and clap to their beat, I don’t know what the solution should be.
And don’t even get me started on the ticket lottery…
Thats why yell leaders are there -- to lead
like conductors of an orchestra — to keep things in rhythm and done together.
sjh
Nice that they bother to show up
there are far more students who want those tickets than those that actually get them…students who don’t mind standing and cheering their team on for the entirety of an hour and a half or so of play time.
But it’s not clear (to me at least) what the solution to this is wrt the ticket lottery. I don’t know how they run the lottery now, which I guess is pretty evident since I can never get tickets. Does anyone care to elaborate on that?
by gradstudentbruin on Feb 5, 2009 3:02 AM PST up reply actions
so from what i hear
the basketball tickets USED to be actual hard tickets. So that if you couldn’t go you could theoretically give it to a friend who wanted to go in your place. With it now on bruincards, you cant do that. I think it would help if you could say go to CTO and transfer your ticket for one game onto a friends bruincard if you couldnt make it. That way at least the student section is always filled.
The only problem i see with something like what eubruin proposed is that there will be a lot of backlash from those that have to commute from far and may not get there on time. (though leaving earlier is always a good option to counter it, it may not always be logistically possible)
I mean to be honest i dont notice any difference between this year’s cheering and previous years from the standpoint that its been the same cheers for god knows how long, and we do the 8-clap about 5000 times during the course of the basketball game.
I think adding a couple new fresh cheers could be good but whose responsibility does that lie on, the yell crew or the students?
A lot of students are able to give their bruincard to someone else
So I don’t think it’s a huge problem.
by SuperBruinMan on Feb 3, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
Bruin Cards
No, not really. At football they don’t check your pictures, but they check really closely at basketball games (at least to sit on the floor; not as much to sit at the top). One of my friends had his Bruin Card taken away because he lent it to someone else to use for a basketball game.
They cracked down
much more on this starting around last year. The time was, I could borrow my little asian female hall mate’s bruincard to give my tall, white male brother, and he cheers much, much harder. That was two years ago, but now they seem determined to do away with that, even sometimes threatening to turn away my roommate because he doesn’t “look like himself” in his own picture.
Correct
All student tickets (football and men’s basketball) were paper tickets; but for the student designation and lack of section/seat#’s, the same strip of season tickets that donors or the public could purchase through CTO.
The basketball ticket lottery was in effect during the early 2000’s as well, though it did not then draw as much ire, whether due to better implementation or lighter demand in the dark days just before the Lavinoma was excised, I do not know. I have my own ideas as to how tickets could be allocated in a more reasonable manner, but do not know if campus politics would allow.
If I had to guess...
…the long L in the 8 clap is a way to counter the long California in the just$c chant…and it caught on and stayed there…
All hail the Mighty Bruins!
I didn't like the long "L"
And now that there is a suspicion that it came from something the thugs do I like it even less.
The reason the “L” is long in justsc cheers is to enable the student body to turn their cheat sheets over.
I absolutely *HATE* that long "L"
I participate in the 8-clap, but refuse to elongate my "L"s. Thus, I have to wait that extra beat to synch up with the “A,” putting a hitch in my get-along, but it’s a small price to pay to maintain my principles.
Maybe someone will start a “Restore the 8-clap” website … wonder how long it would take to catch on.
I didn't "win" the lottery 2 years straight
I’m a transfer from JuCo and the past 2 years I failed to “win” the lottery. If I do need to take a 5th year to finish my degree (even if its only Fall qtr) I’ll try to give it a shot again.
Anyways I’ve been to 3 games so far. I went to 2 non-conference games (Wyoming and Mercer), thanks to the new policy of allowing us non-lottery students to get tickets during Winter break. My last game was the Stanford game, which I sat at section 116 from tickets bought from eBay ( got a steal of $40 a pop).
My friend has tickets for tomorrow’s SC game (section 3xx corner), also bought from eBay. I considered going, but I have to finish a lot of work (Senior in ME major), and having looked at the vibe of the dark upper level seats when I was in Pauley, I declined to go. I almost forgot that there are actually students up there.
If it weren’t for the Den, Pauley would be dead silent. Actually Ben Howland’s timeout strategy after a good offensive play is good in a way that it lets us to cheer for the team as they head to the sidelines. I remember standing up and cheering after timeouts were called in the Stanford game, only to find about half of the people in my section standing.
and please, please end the Ole-ole UC-LA chant. please
I hate the stupid "fake shot clock countdown"
All it does is warn the team that the shot clock is almost down to zero.
If anything, they should start the count late instead of early.
The key is to mix it up
in some places they’ll start the count early one half, then switch to a late count in the second half. The next game they’ll count late in the first and early in the second. Mixing it up makes it really confusing.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Feb 3, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
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