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War of Whistles

By now, it should be clear that I, along with many others in the Nation, absolutely LOVE that we play style of game based on defense, toughness, rebounding, fundamentals, and smart shot selection.  As a Showtime Fan, however, I also believe smart shot selection and offensive efficiency can be used by all kinds of winning teams, slow-grind or fast-break.  It’s all a matter of playing to the strengths of your personnel, and taking away the strengths of your opponents’ personnel -- and no way under heaven you do that without DEFENSE.

Unless, of course, your strength actually is, I don't know, DEFENSE.  Then this seems to pose a problem.

We’ve heard a LOT about officiating for, oh, MONTHS. Everyone has known that, one way or another, one game after another, we’ve had to deal with bad calls and no-calls, ticky-tack calls and over-the-back non-calls. There are countless good reasons as to why "SPTR" is a well-accepted moniker around here.

Nevertheless, has anyone noticed that it seems like in every single one of the past 4 years, as we’ve flamed out by double-digits against our very final opponent, foul trouble has been an issue EVERY TIME???

Take a look:

2009: Villanova, 2nd round.
UCLA PF: 21
Opp. PF: 22
Margin: -1
Players with 5 fouls: DG
Players with 4 fouls: ND, JS
(Also: PAA with 3 fouls, 2 of them early.)

2008: Memphis, Final 4
UCLA PF: 17
Opp. PF: 14
Margin: -3
Players with 5 fouls: DC
Players with 4 fouls: RW

2007: Florida, Final 4
UCLA PF: 26
Opp. PF: 17
Margin: -9
Players with 5 fouls: LMR, LMRAM, AA (including 2 early ones)
Players with 4 fouls: AA2

2006: Florida, Championship Game
UCLA PF: 22
Opp. PF: 13
Margin: -9
Players with 5 fouls: None
Players with 4 fouls: LMRAM

Everyone knows we play an aggressive man-to-man style of D. That’s our calling card. That’s our CORE, our backbone — and it has worked far, far, FAR more often than not while CBH has been here. We would be nowhere without solid D.

But there's a saying in, of all things, a James Bond novel -- Goldfinger to be specific: "Once is coincidence; twice is happenstance; three times is enemy action."

Why have we been eliminated from the Tournament by double-digits for four straight years?   Why is foul trouble an issue for us in each of our biggest losses?

(1)  Is the issue with the refs, singling out UCLA who believe Pac-10 teams are purely finesse squads who don't know how to play rough D without fouling?

(2)  Is the issue with our players, not learning enough to play defense with their FEET, and avoid the same-old reach-in fouls that our guys get caught on in big games year after year after year?

(3)  Is it our defensive philosophy, as teams that beat us spread the floor and hit threes early, forcing us to scramble and over-reach, thereby drawing more fouls?

(4)  Is it our departing players, who leave voids in terms of size and defensive skills that take us 2 years to recover from?

This post is not meant to assign or impose blame, believe it or not.  Rather, it is to ask the last question: 

HOW DOES OUR TEAM PREVENT A FIFTH STRAIGHT DOUBLE-DIGIT WHISTLE-STOP LOSS IN THE TOURNEY?

Have at it, folks.

M

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

5 recs  |  Comment 46 comments

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Re posting it, with apologies and better formatting

It is not the officials’ fault.

First, the overall foul margin was close in our last two tourney losses. This year, when we were a poor team at getting to the free throw line (296th in D-1 Schools in FT attempts per FG attempt), we still managed to shoot more free throws (30) than Villanova (27), who, as a team, gets to the free throw line a lot (27th in D-1 Schools in FT attempts per FG attempt). Gordon committed 3 fouls in the last 4 minutes because he was trying to be an enforcer and he has not yet learned how not to foul. Dragovic drew 4 fouls because he was out of position on two offensive rebounds and slow to help on two drives.

Last year, we committed 3 more fouls than Memphis, but in the last 3 minutes, we fouled them 5 times, all intentionally (including DC’s ridiculous hack 40 feet from the hoop that fouled him out) to send them to the line to shoot free throws, where we hoped they would miss. They didn’t, shooting 10 for 10. They fouled us once in that period, meaning that going into the garbage time when we were intentionally fouling them, they fouled us once more than we fouled them, even though they were the aggressors on offense the entire game. Simply put, DC got into foul trouble because he could not guard Derrick Rose, and it wasn’t even close.

So the only real outlier in terms of # of fouls are the Florida games. Let’s face it, Florida (and to a lesser extent Memphis and Villanova) had superior size and quickness at multiple positions. Noah, Horford and Brewer were nightmarish matchups for us. When you’re slower and smaller and not as good, you’re going to foul more than if you’re quicker and bigger and better. Even then, we fouled Florida 6 times in the last 2 minutes (all intentionally, including the last one, with 20 seconds left by AA in his last moment on the floor as a Bruin) to their 1 (which was not intentional but rather to stop a put back on an offensive rebound). The pre-intentional fouling phase brought about only a 4-foul disparity. A gap, yes, but not a huge one when you consider the size and athleticism gap of their bigs and ours and that they got to the line more than we did all year (we were 245th and they were 34th in FTA/FGA ratio).

In 2006, we committed only 3 fouls in garbage time, so there was a 6 foul disparity, but only a 2 FT difference if you take away the 4 FTs Florida shot in the last minute on these last 3 fouls. I note that even in the last minute of that game, Florida was not in the double bonus and missed two front ends of 1 and 1s before the last foul put them into the double bonus. We just couldn’t draw fouls in that game because their bigs swatted everything away and then we stopped taking it to the rim with authority.

So, I guess you could say that I disagree with your premise that foul calls and foul trouble have been an issue for us in these games, at least not one that can be generalized. A lot of the foul trouble didn’t materialize until late in the game, when we were playing from a deficit. Some was due to poor matchups. Some was due to over-aggressiveness. Some was due to poor positioning. Overall, however, there is no foul disparity to point to, just that a few of our players have ended up with 4 or 5 fouls, which often happens when you have 3 fouls and have to keep taking chances because you are behind.

To respond to your individual questions:

(1) The refs do not single out Pac-10 teams because they think we’re soft. Do you know how many opponents have complained that we never get called for fouls? Every team that we beat with Kevin Love at center, at the very least. The statistics do not bear this out. Last weekend, every Pac-10 game except two had a foul disparity of 3 or less. The outliers were Arizona having 6 fewer than Utah and Cal having 5 more than Maryland. Of course, both of those games had fouls by the losing team at the end of the game that increased the disparity. Still, 10 of 12 games were relatively even in fouls.

(2) Our players do an excellent job of playing defense with their feet and not their hands. In previous years, Love, Mata and Luc all did this well, allowing us to play physically and alter shots without going for high-risk, high-foul rate block attempts. This is one of the reasons that Ben Howland gets so much praise for how he teaches defese. You can see it in our games. We rarely reach, we play defense with our feet, and we beat the man to the spot. I would say that this year’s team was worse at this, mainly because the lateral foot speed and stength of ND and JH was not as good as the players they replaced and also because we didn’t have guys who could double the post effectively.

(3) I think you have a false assumption. As argued above, only in the Florida games did we commit more fouls than our opponents before garbage time. I don’t think that our fouls come from reaching; they come from trying to make physical plays, like strong hedges, moving picks, charges (and failed attempts to draw them), challenging their shots and your usual rebounding positional/pushing issues. Occasionally, we reach in, but that is not a customary problem with our team since Howland took over. We in fact, play for steals much less than most teams do, preferring to play positional defense. Teams that spread us out do make us vulnerable to blocking fouls because we they will try to drive on us, and we will try to beat them to the spot, often resulting in a call.

(4) Surely Luc, Love and RW departing had an impact on our defense. By the end of the season last year, they were our 3 best defenders. Luc and Love were in the top 400 in fewest fouls called per 40 minutes played, which is rare for a 4 and a 5.

The refs do make bad calls. It’s a part of the game. But I have watched almost all of our games this year, and I can honestly say that the only bad call that had a negative impact on the outcome of one of our games was the “charge” on Collison at ASU. Even then, who’s to say whether we win the game or lose it if that foul is called correctly. It would still have been a 1-point game with under a minute to play, and the other team was at home and had the best player in the conference. Total crap shoot.

This next part is not in response to this post but to all the posters who incessantly complain about the officiating. I understand that it’s hard to resist the temptation. I am sick and tired of hearing anyone say that the officials had anything to do with one of these 4 tournament losses. We were vastly outplayed in each of the 4 games. We were not the better team, and in each case, it was not a close call. Could we have benefited from having Afflalo play more against Florida? Of course. But they won because they were better. I would even say that Florida didn’t play a great game against us, but it was plenty good to win by 10.

Basketball is always going to have officials, and they will always make mistakes. It’s part of the game, but 99 times out of 100, heck you could say 99.5 times out of 100, the officials don’t make a difference in the outcome. Yet, with every loss, every fan complains that the officials were uneven, they screwed us, they cost us the game. We lose games because the other team is the aggressor, has the superior players, plays better than we do.

We do not lose because the officials don’t give us enough calls. Enough with the complaints. It’s time for fans to grow up and accept that sometimes your team is just not the better team.

by BruinsRule on Mar 24, 2009 1:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

BR -- Thanks for the thorough response.

I tried writing the post as even-handedly as possible. Looks like i came out too much on one side.

Personally, I think that our team should play with concerted effort to AVOID being stuck in cl;ose games, so refs are not nearly a factor in crunch time.

Also, while I love our coaching staff and all they have done and continue to do for us, I am NOT happy about our losses filling the same pattern year after year. Even if fouls in the 1st half, the burning and shredding of our vaunted defense by otuside shooters beating our players rotating out of a double-team is disturbing in its frequency.

It is frustrating to watch, and it runs contrary to what we do for the vast majority of a season.

M

"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008

by Meriones on Mar 24, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I thought you were even handed

You presented facts about fouls. I tried to shed more light on those facts.

I agree that it’s troubling that we have lost by such large margins int he tournament. It’s one thing to lose; it’s quite another to lose so convincingly when we were supposed to be a good team. I don’t know what the answer is, and instead of suggesting an answer, I am, rather unhelpfully and adamantly that it is not the officiating. I think we need to look for another answer.

by BruinsRule on Mar 24, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not just the number of fouls

it’s the type of fouls. Kevin Love got mugged and manhandled last year against Memphis, with nary a call. We were not soft last year. The year before that, AA touched Corey Brewer with his pinky and the whistle was blown louder than a locomotive’s. I don’t think you could call that team soft either.

To me, it comes back to one thing, and one thing only: "home"court advantage.

2006: Indianapolis – a rather neutral site…but the SEC fans were there in full force, rooting first for LSU then for Florida.

2007: Georgia Dome – again, SEC country, again, playing Florida in Georgia is pretty tough

2008: San Antonio – pretty neutral, but not exactly a West Coast friendly confine (don’t discount Spurs vs. Lakers)

2009: Philadelphia – pretty much home to Villanova, with VCU a short drive away.

I really do believe that the crowd has an effect on the referees. It’s not the only thing…but when you take into account that 1) we made it to 3 Final fours by playing our first 4 games out west, and 2) in our last championship in 1995, we played all our games out west, it makes for a telling picture.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 24, 2009 1:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The home-away explanation is only partially satisfying

The fact that Villanova was playing in Philly probably gave them a 5-10 point bump, which could have turned a high single-digit or low-double digit loss into a blow out. We probably also lost a few points to Florida in 2007 by playing them in Atlanta.

I cannot accept any argument that Indianapolis was Florida’s home court or that San Antonio is a home away from home for Memphis. Those sites are as neutral as they can be.

But let’s assume that all of 4 these losses were due to the other team’s home court advantage. I don’t think that anyone wants to go there, for, if you do, then:

(1) surely you will be forced to concede that the only reason we beat A&M last year, Indiana, Pitt and Kansas in 2007, and Alabama, Gonzaga and Memphis in 2006 was because they were home games. (that’s what those other teams’ fans were saying, by the way) and

(2) you may as well stop hoping that the Bruins will ever win another national championship unless it’s in Glendale, Arizona because Final Fours are required to be played in domes, and that is the only dome within 1500 miles of our campus.

Finally, if we were as good as these teams and playing on their actual home courts, Vegas would give them 3 points over what they would give them on a neutral court. Three points has long been the accepted number of points to illustrate the advantage of playing at home. If we were equal to these teams but for the home court advantage, we should lose by a small margin—less than 5 points anyway. If were were equal to them, the games might have been back and forth, but we never led any of the 4 games at any point in the 2nd half, and we lost by at least 10 in each case. You cannot escape that we just were not as good as our opponents.

So, as much as we want to rationalize the losses as being the result of “home court” advantage, I don’t think it’s accurate, and I don’t want to go there. Instead, I’d like to continue to believe that we beat A&M, Gonzaga, Memphis etc. because we were better, tougher and wanted it more. We were one of the 4 best teams in the country in each of those 3 years, not just some sad sack of a team that got lucky to play 10 games in California and 2 games in Phoenix, all against teams that had to travel at least 1000 miles* to play us.

  • Technically, Gonzaga only had to travel 874 miles to Oakland.

by BruinsRule on Mar 24, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

home court

i’ve grown tired of hearing about ucla’s supposed advantage by playing in state. dude, the trip from la to oakland is about the distance from north carolina to florida. but would anyne ever call unc playing in jacksonville an advantage?
either way you can look at the refs, the location, whatever on saturday we played bad and we didn’t deserve to win. in all our recent losses in the tourney we got beat, period. you win national championships when for some crazy reason a great group of players stick around long enough to win it all. florida, kansas, and prolly unc this yr. coach howland’s misfortune in the tourney is that his players have gone to the pros right away. it’s impressive what he’s been able to do in spite of that and his efforts will be rewarded soon with at least one of those banners we all like to hang in pauley

Across The Face

by rb bruin on Mar 24, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am also tired of hearing that

My only point is that we shouldn’t go around whining that any tourney game not played on the west coast is unfair to us. And I can see you agree with me on that.

by BruinsRule on Mar 24, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not about "homecourt"

It’s about the people who go to the game. Not everyone who goes to these games is a fan of one team or another. I can pretty much guarantee you that just about anyone in Jacksonville would root for UNC over UCLA. I don’t think you understand the vitriol that the South (i.e. SEC) has against pretty much the rest of the country, and how much the West is disliked not just in basketball but in general by the rest of the country.

If you don’t believe me, ask the people who went to the Final Four in Indianapolis. During the final against Florida, UCLA fans were outnumbered by people rooting for Florida, because in addition to the actual Florida fans, all the LSU fans were rooting against UCLA. Why? “Gotta root for the SEC dude”. “S – E – C” chants broke out regularly during the game. And my point is, the crowd can affect the referees.

Was it the only reason we lost? Absolutely not. We were overmatched for the most part in those games. However, we should not have lost that badly against those teams, who had much closer games against opponents that were inferior to UCLA.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 25, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're the one who used the word "home court"

But that’s neither here nor there. When games were played on the west coast, I suppose that everyone was pulling for A&M and Kansas, right? Otherwise, how did they keep it so close against a Bruin team that only loses when the refs are such slaves to the anti-UCLA crowd?

You can’t have it both ways. Either the officials are a big factor in all of the games (in favor of the directional pull of the crowd) or they aren’t. If they cost us the games we have lost, then they cost our opponents the games that we won. If the officials are such a big cause of a 20 point defeat to Villanova, then surely they were the only difference in a 2 point win over A&M, a 3-point win over Alabama, a 2-point win over Gonzaga, a 5-point win over Memphis, and a 5-point win over Indiana. There is no doubt that the crowds in those close games were very much pro-UCLA and that the margins of victory were miniscule as compared to our losses.

If you believe that officials have that much power, then why even watch the games when we play on neutral courts with crowds slanted against our Bruins? Predetermined outcomes, the lesser team winning, the crowd deciding who wins … is this the WWF?

No, it’s basketball. We win when we’re the better team, and we lose when we’re not. It’s that simple. Complaining about the officiating is just whining or put another way, subliminal avoidance of the harsh reality that your team was not as good as you wanted it to be.

by BruinsRule on Mar 25, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not the point

and you exaggerate what I am saying a little bit. Furthermore, I used "home"court in my initial post, clearly denoting that the term should be taken lightly.

I thought that my last paragraph above showed that I do not think the refs were the biggest reason for our losses. In my opinion, however, the way they refereed those games had something to do with the margin of our losses (but the losses were still likely). We were still the lesser team. It’s okay if you disagree.

As for your last paragraph, basketball is absolutely not that simple. Teams definitely, absolutely, do not “win when they’re the better team and lose when they’re not”. I strongly doubt you believe that. It may be true most of the time but on any single day, anything can happen, and you and I have seen enough upsets to know that.

I am not making a point about UCLA only or about those games specifically, I am just using them as an example. I expected us to lose in every one of those games except the first final against Florida, and even played my brackets that way…I just didn’t think we’d lose that badly.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 25, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clarification

I mean that the better team, as determined by how they play on the court, always wins. For example, when WSU beat us this year, they were the better team even though I believe that on nearly any other day, we would beat them. It was an upset, but they earned it because they were better than we were.

I may have exaggerated some of your points for emphasis, and I don’t want this to be an attack on you because it’s not. I guess you could say that whining about officials is right up there with the drive by posters when we lose a game. “Not the biggest reason” for our loss? The referees had nothing to do with our losing on Saturday. The Cats were just better than us. They wouldn’t necessarily better on every day of the year and in every arena on the planet, but they were better when and where it mattered, by a wide margin and nothing the refs did, didn’t do or could have done (absent blatant and excessive fraud and corruption in our favor) could have changed that even a little bit.

by BruinsRule on Mar 25, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't say we lost because of the refs on Saturday

But I will say that the fouls they called caused the team to be tentative, and that made the game less competitive in my opinion.

The Cats were better, and would probably beat us more often than not. We agree.

That does not, in any way, lessen the fact that referees can affect games with the types of fouls that they call. It’s up to the players to be mentally tough and play smarter. UCLA did not do that on Saturday. So, in my view, the refs had something to do with the way UCLA ended up playing, even if they had nothing to do with our losing.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 25, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fouls

I agree with tasser10 that it’s not the number of fouls, but the the type of fouls. That’s about where my agreement ends.

I’m a Bruin homer like the rest of us, but I’m not a fan of these excuses. In my opinion, UCLA’s losses have been due to other teams aggression. Under Howland, UCLA has been a consistently tough, physical team, but when UCLA loses the other team looks more aggressive and physical than the Bruins do. The more aggressive team usually gets the calls. Does anybody recall Memphis’ whining after UCLA beat them to go to the first final four? Memphis complained…a lot…Then they took a page out of our book and came back stronger.

In the losses listed above, UCLA may very well have more personal fouls than the other team. But, if you look at the tapes, I’m sure that the other team has driven to the lane and scored more in the paint than we did. Aggression. Simply put, jump shots do not usually get the other team in foul trouble. If you attack the basket, good things happen.

I hated playing Nova in Philly at 10:00 am as much as the next guy, but making excuses regarding venue is pointless. I believe that if UCLA played the way they are capable, they could have beaten Nova. The fact of the matter is, Nova made us play their game, played much more physical, and imposed their will. We couldn’t keep up. Florida and Memphis did the same thing in years prior.

I look forward to seeing the next generation of Bruins go forward. I think JH will be able to get to the hole in ways that DC couldn’t. ML may very well be a perfect SG for Howland’s system, the way AA was. We have a number of athletic wing/PF type hybrid players that probably could have kept up with Nova. Last, we have Drew Gordon. He has the mental makeup to get this team over the hump. I don’t see any fear in him, and I doubt there will be a game where he doesn’t match or exceed his opponent’s aggression.

by AllHailMightyBruins on Mar 24, 2009 3:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I wholeheartedly agree that officiating should not be an excuse.

If anything, I think our problem is that, well, how to put this…

Imagine this were our Bruin football team instead of our hoops team. To extend the analogy, I would think that the screen-and-roll play is often the equivalent of the play-action pass. In hoops, you use a screener to divert, delay or disrupt the regular defender covering the ballhandler so that the handler can either drive himself, pass to the screener, or pass somewhere else. It doesn’t alway work, but it frees up the handler just a little bit to reset or re-assess the flow of the D.

In football, the QB fakes the handoff, and the RB can either continue to block the defender (i.e. AA2 on a HARD screen), leak out for a downfield pass (i.e. a pick and pop), or get the ball back and run or pass himself (i.e. pass out to ND for an entry pass to the post or a stop and pop).

Staying on the gridiron, a team can defend a play-action in a lot of ways — it can blitz to bring pressure and disrupt; it can stay home and just rush its usual 3, 4, or 5 guys and rely on LBs to cover the gaps; it can mix up its rushes and coverages to confuse the receivers, etc., etc., etc.

Looking at our BB squad, I’m worried if teams approach our double-teams, hedges, and shifts the same way a spread offense attacks an over-aggressive, blitz-heavy pro-style defense — by spreading people out so far that you can’t recover when you collapse your D (i.e. put 10 in the box), or hedge a screen (i.e. LB blitz), or double the post with your quicker players (i.e. DB blitz).

Maybe, a smart, aggressive zone press (3/4 court or halfcourt) is the way to apply pressure to shooters in spread-shot formations and still maintain focus WITHOUT getting burned or called for reach-ins?

Just a thought.

M

"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008

by Meriones on Mar 24, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good points

I think when you run a very aggressive defense, as Howland does, you extend yourself and may be vulnerable to mismatches. Mismatches in space are the goal of every offense in every team sport.

Florida, Memphis, and Nova all exploited mismatches. Florida’s mismatch was the skilled big men. Noah and Horford absolutely destroyed us two years in a row. I remember watching the first Florida game, when on the first possession Noah made an insane pass out of a double team for a Horford dunk. At that point, I questioned whether we could beat Florida without altering our defensive scheme. The big men were too skilled to be challenged by our double teams.

Memphis had Derrick Rose. We didn’t. There isn’t much analysis here. He played like the all-world point guard that he is. Deploying a more conservative defense may have worked to help clog up things, but when somebody plays as well as he did, there may not be a real answer.

Nova is the biggest worry, in my opinion. They had a bunch of big, athletic wing players that spread our defense out and created mismatches all over the court. They didn’t have any lottery type players like Noah, Horford, or Rose. Yet they drove to the hole at will. When we hedged, they burned us with threes. I’m not sure if this team just wasn’t as good at individual defense as teams past, but we really couldn’t guard anyone.

We lost all four of these games by double digits. I feel that we didn’t play as well as we could have in all four of these games. I also feel that no real adjustments were made in any of the four games. It’s possible that the players lost confidence in each of the games because of the lack of adjustment and stopped playing as aggressively. Maybe something could have been tweaked a bit here and there in each game. I can’t say for sure, but I do think that Howland’s defensive scheme will work better with more length. Sometimes its good for a program to get punched, and Nova just reminded Howland of how physical the Big East is.

by AllHailMightyBruins on Mar 24, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Parallels

I was also thinking of football. In particular, in the first half of 1990s, the Dallas Cowboys had a very simple offense that had about 5 running plays. The Cowboys essentially said we’re going to run these 5 plays, and you can scout them all you want, but we’re still going to be effective, because we’re bigger, stronger and faster, and we have Emmitt Smith and former UCLA star Troy Aikman. The Cowboys became the first team to win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years.

Under CNP, the Bruins tried a similar approach, but they didn’t have studs on offense other than MJD, and their offense was generally abysmal except when MJD made a play (using a rough oversimplification)

So, is it the system or the personnel?

Put another way, could that group of Cowboys have won using another offensive system? Could they have won with that system even if they didn’t have Emmitt Smith or Troy Aikman?

My view is that the Cowboys would have won no matter what system they used, but no system in the world would have brought them Super Bowl rings if they didn’t have Emmitt Smith. And that’s how I feel about college basketball. The most talented team, executing on whatever plan they use, usually wins. You see teams with odd systems and less talent occasionally pull an upset, but they rarely advance to the Sweet 16, much less beyond that, unless they have as much or more talent than the top teams in the country.

At its best, a system should be adaptable to different personnel. I think that Howland’s defensive and offensive systems are indeed adaptable to their personnel. Consider that in 2007, we had almost no low post offense, but we won 30 games and reached the Final 4. In 2008, we had only 3 guards and wings to play 3 positions and weren’t a very good 3-point shooting team, yet we made it to the Final 4 using a monstrous low-post presence. Defensively, he adapted his system in 2006 by putting in a freshman dynamo who could help and recover so quickly that double teams—of the low post or the high pick and roll—became a weapon instead of a necessary evil to use against superior players.

Offensively, in 2009, he used more motion offense than ever before because he thought it would play to the strengths of the team, and it worked to the tune of our having an excellent offense (according to points per possession) despite a less than stellar low post game, an overdribbling point guard, a shooting guard who couldn’t shoot, and only two guys who could take their man off the dribble and finish. I think he got a ton out of our players on offense.

Would a change in the defensive system have helped this team go further in the tournament? (I’ll use zone press as an example, but use whatever defense you would like to use; I think the conclusion is the same.)

Anything’s possible, but I doubt it for the simple reason that 6 of our top 7 players (in terms of minutes played) had played at least 3 years in Howland’s defensive system and despite all that practice could not execute it consistently well, even against poor teams (like Stanford and Oregon), much less in a series of elimination games against high-quality teams. I doubt that those same players would be able to effectively execute a zone press, even if they had practiced it as much as their base defense (which would be impossible due to time constraints), because a zone press would not hide the deficiencies of our defenders; it may even amplify them.

For instance, we were very poor at trapping, helping and recovering this year. A zone press is a defense that requires traps, rotating to the ball side and recovering, but over a larger space than an ordinary half court defense (which pushes out only 5-10 feet beyond the 3-point line). I find it doubtful that this group of players would suddenly become effective at trapping, rotating and recovering in an extended zone setting than they were in a more contained man-to-man setting that had been ingrained in them for three-plus years.

The bottom line is that, whether for lack of size, foot speed, quickness, desire, experience, strength, athleticism or otherwise, we had defensive deficiencies everywhere on this year’s roster. Against certain teams, we may have had advantages at certain positions, but against good teams, we never had an advantage at more than a couple positions. No defensive system would have been effective to materially reduce, much less eliminate, those deficiencies.

The good news is that unlike the upperclassmen the biggest defensive weakness of the freshmen on this year’s team was inexperience (as opposed to size, athleticism, foot speed etc.), which is curable by practice and passage of time. Perhaps with that experience and after mixing in more athleticism from next year’s freshmen, we will have the players to be a physical, intense and dangerous defense, and we’ll all once again be praising the defensive wizardry of Ben Howland!

by BruinsRule on Mar 24, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

You're all overthinking this

Florida’s massive advantage against us both times was their size. They had two NBA-quality big men (Noah and Horford) who, naturally, were going to do the dirty work inside, muscle in to the basket, and get fouled. Our strategy against them both times was to shoot from outside, so which one of those strategies do you think would draw more fouls? The foul discrepancies in the Memphis and Nova games were negligible; a three- or one-foul difference is nothing to get worked up over. We lost to Florida both times because we didn’t have any answer for the Noah/Horford combo, because Brewer locked Afflalo down and because we shot a combined 8-for-38 from beyond the arc; we lost to Memphis because we had an uncharacteristically terrible shooting day and because Collison couldn’t handle Derrick Rose; and we lost to Nova because they were a faster, deeper, more balanced team. Don’t blame the referees, don’t blame the locations…the team lost those games. The Memphis game was definitely winnable, but we would have had to play an absolutely perfect game to beat Florida or Nova, and we didn’t. It’s that simple. There’s almost no situation in which it’s acceptable to legitimately blame referees/officials for a loss.

by theslammer on Mar 24, 2009 4:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Again, not blaming refs, but concerned about our ability to adapt to spread-out teams.

M

"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008

by Meriones on Mar 24, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Much better argument

And I think you hit on the exact problem. Here’s what I think:

Before the 08 class, Howland’s main target in recruiting wasn’t the typical long, athletic, potential-oozing playmaker, like a Derrick Rose or an OJ Mayo. It was someone who wasn’t necessarily a great offensive threat, but instead a team-oriented guy that could do the dirty work and play aggressively on the defensive end. That’s all well and good, but when you come against a team that’s far superior athletically and can plain beat you with their speed, it’s near-impossible to stop them, and I think that’s what leads to all the fouls; if you can’t contain ‘em, foul ’em. That’s why DC fouled out against Memphis and AA fouled out against Florida and LMR/LRMAM/AA2 all fouled out/nearly fouled out against Florida. It’s hard to say this, but I think the only solution is to conform to the typical “successful NCAA team” model and start going after guys who are long and athletic and quick.

And I think Howland knows that, because his 2008 class was very different from his previous ones; the best thing that Holiday/Lee/Anderson/Gordon have going for them is their natural athletic ability, not necessarily their “scrappiness” or their “tenacity” or their “will to win.” But here’s the thing: after having to learn from Ben, they’ll know that they have to play suffocating defense and not turn every game into a fast-break-layup contest. Look at someone like Russell Westbrook: he was an athletic freak of nature who could dunk in traffic and beat fools off the dribble. At a Big 12 school, they probably let him loose to score 25 points a game and tell him “not to worry too much” about his defense. In Ben’s system? He’s still a big threat on the offensive end, but he’s able to use his athleticism to become a lockdown defender.

And that’s why you should be optimistic: guys like Jrue, Lee, Gordon, Moser, and Honeycutt are all dripping with athleticism, and through Ben’s tutelage they have the potential to become RW-like lockdown defenders IN ADDITION TO their significant talent on the offensive end. Personally, I think if we give them chances to shine in our system that this problem will go away without any big changes really needing to happen. That’s why I’m so in favor of going with a young roster next season; they all have a ton of talent, and if anyone can teach them to harness it into becoming big-time contributors on both ends of the floor, it’s Ben. Just look at RW.

by theslammer on Mar 24, 2009 5:53 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Devil's Advocate

I’m going to go ahead and say we get a lot of really bad calls and or non calls on the opposing teams. I’m also going to point out that we don’t have to get whistled up excessively to affect the outcome of the game. a number of early fouls will change a player or a teams aggression level on the court. Once it’s in their head that they are going to get called they will go out of their way to avoid contact and thus avoid fouls.

I’ve seen it happen both in person and as a spectator to know this to be true. Anybody who took the time to read Tim Donaghy’s interviews when he was busted by the feds can tell you how easily it is to fix a game and how little actual interference it takes to make it happen.

Case in point: UCLA vs USC 2004 football game at the Rose Bowl. Stop me if you’ve heard this one. We played USC close all day and late in the game they fumble the ball and we get the ball with very favorable field position. Nix that, the referees give them the ball back while those of us watching the jumbo tron can see how clearly it was a fumble. Then much later in the game with time getting short, they (might even have been Reggie Bush) fumble the ball and this time we recover and our guy is running down the field with a clear line to the end zone. Nix that cuz the referees blow the whistle and give University of Successful Cheaters the ball back. They go on to “win” their one National Championship under Pete Carroll.

Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen, or is just a product of sour grapes. It’s there. If anything I would tell our Basketball players to count on it. Let them know they’ll have to carry a ten point lead into every final minute of every game because you can expect the zebras to institute their own form of leveling the playing field. I’m pragmatic enough to know that even if there is a vast conspiracy out to keep UCLA Athletics down, it is the situation we live with. We are just going to have to live with it, and work that much harder to be successful.

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Mar 24, 2009 10:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That was my point

and I should have elaborated by saying that our players let those calls get to them, it seems. The proof is in the pudding. We lost to Florida, Memphis, Villanova, in the tournament, by double digits. Those teams had much closer games against opponents that UCLA would beat. So something is not kosher. Either our players gave up because they knew they were overmatched, or they gave up because they were frustrated and the strategy didn’t change all game, or they were taken out of their game plan by the referees’ bad calls. And my point was, I don’t think that referees have an agenda, but I do think they are influenced by the crowd. Yes, we were not the best team in those matchups, but we shouldn’t have lost that badly either.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 25, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't disagreeing.

I guess I’m saying there is more to it than crowd influence. I refuse to believe Tim Donaghy is the only one out there. And, I refuse to believe that bookies are the only ones influencing them.

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Mar 25, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you honestly suggesting that there's some kind of conspiracy against UCLA?

Sure, fine, whatever. Forget that referees bailed us out three different times at the end of the basketball season last year (when DC got very questionably fouled in the Stanford game and was allowed to shoot the tying free throws, when Ryan Anderson got mugged-but-apparently-not-fouled at the end of the Cal game that led to Shipp’s illegal game-winning shot that was allowed to stand, and when the Texas A&M guy got hacked in the arm going for the tying layup without a foul being called) and forget that Nova ended up getting called for MORE fouls than us in this year’s second-round matchup. Let’s just all agree that every time UCLA loses in basketball or football, the team played perfectly and the coach coached perfectly and the only reason we lost was because the NCAA hates us. That’ll make everyone happy, right?

by theslammer on Mar 25, 2009 6:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's a slippery slope.

and I’m not walking it.

Let’s just say that the governing bodies of all major sports franchises have a way of repeatedly getting their dream match ups (Ratings wise) into the National Championship. I’m not saying there is a conspiracy so much as a lot of influencing. Some years it’s a good story for UCLA to get back into the Final Four. Other years it may be some one else’s turn. In the case of the 2004 UCLA v USC game, I think the Pac 10 was desperate to get their first BCS National Championship notch on their belt. They felt (for obvious reasons) that USC had the best chance of making that happen.

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Mar 25, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me adjust my tin-foil hat and add my two cents worth

I can’t remember which network did the World Series last year, but whichever one it was lost a TON of money when the dream match-up between Baaaaaaston and LA turned into the Rays against the Phillies. (The figure of speech used by my source who I can’t name, a la Doh!, was that executives were all heading for the top floor windows to end it all when the worst happened.) Then the network lost even more when it ended in five games. It is a fact that big market teams generate more TV revenue, and it is a fact that a seven game series generates more revenue than a six or five game series.

I am not about to dismiss a notion that this concept hasn’t trickled down from network to league to official. But it isn’t surprising when plates get skinnier for teams like the Rays when a win by a big market team would be helpful to TV (and hence league) revenues.

by Fox 71 on Mar 25, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

All I'm trying to say is this

It’s stupid and childish to blame referees for a loss. It takes all the blame and responsibility off your players and your coaches and puts it onto forces outside your control, which is just plain “making excuses.” In all of those games we lost in the Final Four, we did not play as well as our opponents and did not deserve to win. In the 2004 Victory Bell game against USC, we did not play as well as the Trojans and did not deserve to win (anyone else remember us getting nothing out of a second-quarter drive that began in the USC red zone, as well as Justin London’s fumbled interception and Karl Dorrell’s awful clock/timeout management in the waning minutes?). And if you’re saying that the reason you lost is because the entire freaking institution is out to get you…well, I don’t even know how to describe that.

by theslammer on Mar 25, 2009 10:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't put words in our mouths

Discussing the effect that referees have on a game is very different from blaming them for a loss.

And blaming them for a loss is very different from saying that there is a conspiracy.

Have refs cost teams a victory? Yes, absolutely: see Chargers getting shafted by Ed Hochuli this past season. Just a mistake, not a conspiracy.

Have refs been involved in game fixing? Yes, absolutely: see Donaghy in the NBA, match-fixing scandal in Italian soccer.

Mistakes happen all the time, and when there’s money involved, cheating happens sometimes. That is not whining, that is reality.

You shouldn’t patronize people for what you think is “making excuses” when no one has actually said that we lost solely because of poor refereeing.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 26, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

And in the 2004 game at the very least the second returned fumble may have very well cost us the game. Our guy had a clear unimpeded path to the goal line. A score and point after would have given us the lead. And while there would have been enough time on the clock for USC to score and regain the lead it would have been a very slim margin of error to work with.

The bad calls were so obvious that the Trojan fans in our midst all apologized for the bad calls and acknowledged that they had made a difference.

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Mar 26, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Timing of the Fouls is Important, Too

First — This is the type of post and thread that makes BN special.

One thing that stands out from this and other seasons: We tend to get more fouls on us, and our key players, earlier in the game. That puts us in the hole of having to back off a bit for the remainder of the game. In some games, the number of fouls against the other team increases toward the end of the game.

The impact is that they can play their game for most of the game and we cannot.

If we go back in the game threads, I made a point of posting first half foul counts for both teams. Often we had twice as many fouls (limiting our players ability to play aggressively) and they were getting way more foul shots.

And, many of those early fouls brought out the SPTR banners.

I know there is not way of quantifying it, but it really hurt us all season long and in some crucial games.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Mar 26, 2009 6:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You don't think that MAYBE

we get more fouls called on us because we play much more aggressive defense than other teams?

by theslammer on Mar 26, 2009 9:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No

you think we were more aggressive than Villanova? And you certainly can’t say that this season’s UCLA team played aggressive defense…

Come on man, no one is saying that we lost because of the referees. But it’s not realistic to think that referees don’t affect the way a game is played, and that crucial calls at crucial times can affect the outcome of the game.

With the bushels of money that the NCAA collects from TV, it would be naive to think that their top concern is fair play. There is no “conspiracy” against UCLA in particular, but I am pretty sure that there is a trickle down effect when it comes to the NCAA getting a desired outcome to maximize profit.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 26, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Assuming you are correct

Why on earth would the NCAA higher ups wish to get rid of UCLA? The most storied program in college basketball history, huge market, gorgeous cheerleaders…

Of course refs affect games. As do crowds, slippery spots on the court, and lighting. It’s part of the game.

I understand that nobody is saying that we lost because of the refs. At least not explicitly. But when someone starts pointing to the number of fouls and hinting at bias, what is the intention of the post if not to blame the refs? I say the number of fouls are important, but you have to play good defense to avoid fouls and aggressive offense to get fouls. It’s not bias that leads to a discrepancy in fouls, but poor play.

by AllHailMightyBruins on Mar 26, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never said that

Where did I say that the higher ups wish to get rid of UCLA? I would ask, however, why a #6 seed has to travel 3000 miles to play a #11 seed that has to travel 200 miles, only to go on and play a #3 seed that has to travel 24 miles. That doesn’t sound to me like a committee that cares about our fortunes. Villanova, as a #3 seed, has to travel less than any of the #1 seeds. As storied as our program is, UCLA’s following is not as big as you think, at least in terms of TV viewership.

M’s original post posited a question, specifically saying he was not assigning blame, but instead wanted to figure out why we seemed to get in foul trouble in all those games.

The number of fouls is not the relevant part of M’s analysis. It is the type of fouls that is relevant. The fouls called on Nova were much harder than the ones called on UCLA. When Nova committed the same types of fouls as UCLA, they were not called in many instances. I don’t blame the refs for our loss, but I say they called the game inconsistently. I saw this with my own eyes, and I believe others did as well, just as I saw how poorly we played. And I can guarantee you, if we had played better and still lost, this point about the referees would have been a bigger issue. Our poor play did not in any way take away from the inconsistent referee calls. They still happened.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 26, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We had to travel because we were not a top 4 seed

The selection committee lays it out at the beginning of the year. If you are a top 4 seed then you will be travel protected. If you are not then you fall prey to wherever the s-curve puts you. As a #3 seed, Villanova earned the right to play their games at the site closest to them. Whether The Wachovia Center should be considered a home site is another debate. We fell out of the top 4 seeds and had to travel to wherever we fell on the s-curve, which unfortunately was Philadelphia. VCU’s spot on the s-curve just happened to keep them pretty close to home.

by Ryan Rosenblatt on Mar 26, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the Florida games

I could understand a UCLA fan’s complaint about the referees being inconsistent (I wouldn’t condone it, but I could understand it). However, Nova got called for more fouls than us and shot three fewer free throws than us. I’m sorry, there is really no argument about the referees here. Because we were cheering for the losing team, we automatically put the referees under a microscope, and just assumed that Nova was getting all the calls, hard facts and clear evidence be damned. And the site location…yeah, it seems a little unfair that we had to travel like that and VCU/Nova didn’t, but it’s not like we were the only ones. Texas fans could reasonably argue that their team got screwed by seeding as well (having to play Duke just 50 miles from their campus in the second round). And look at Purdue-Washington; I’m from Portland and there are a TON of Huskie fans there, so that was basically a UW home game. And do you know what happened? Purdue played the Huskies straight up, executed, and won despite three of their players being in foul trouble. THAT’S what it really comes down to…how the team plays.

For anyone who cares, this is the correct list of reasons why we lost to Nova, in order of importance:

1. Got crushed in the turnover battle (20-11)
2. Couldn’t prevent Nova from getting offensive rebounds (they got 15 to our 7)
3. Didn’t keep up with Nova’s guards
4. Game location
N/A: Poor/Possibly biased officiating

by theslammer on Mar 26, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Getting called for fewer fouls and shooting more free throws doesn't mean you can't complain.

Say they committed what should have been 50 fouls. Say they were only called for 25. Say we committed, and were only called for 5. That’s still a screw job. I’m not saying that’s what happened against Villanova, but the absolute foul or free throw margin does not absolve the referees of any mistakes they make.

by jaffa on Mar 26, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand that you didn't say that

But you’re making “conspiracy” type arguments, i.e :

"Come on man, no one is saying that we lost because of the referees. But it’s not realistic to think that referees don’t affect the way a game is played, and that crucial calls at crucial times can affect the outcome of the game.

With the bushels of money that the NCAA collects from TV, it would be naive to think that their top concern is fair play. There is no "conspiracy" against UCLA in particular, but I am pretty sure that there is a trickle down effect when it comes to the NCAA getting a desired outcome to maximize profit."

and:

“…That doesn’t sound to me like a committee that cares about our fortunes. Villanova, as a #3 seed, has to travel less than any of the #1 seeds. As storied as our program is, UCLA’s following is not as big as you think, at least in terms of TV viewership.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I read your arguments to mean that with so much money involved, the NCAA/CBS may influence the game via officiating (and, according to an earlier post of yours, site selection). To me, that is a conspiracy argument. The first question I ask when I hear a conspiracy argument is Why?

Again, you deny conspiracy argument, but then claim that UCLA has a smaller tv following than one would think (without any data to back your claim up), that Nova got preferential treatment (without explaining why the NCAA decided to favor Nova this year), and then allege that Nova was allowed to foul harder than we were during the game.

I’ll ask the question again; Why would the NCAA want to assist Nova by giving them a beneficial site and influence the officiating in a game against UCLA? It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe you’re correct that UCLA has a small tv following, but I doubt it. Maybe Digger Phelps secretly controls the NCAA, but I doubt it. It is, however, entirely possible that USC has the NCAA in its pocket books…

by AllHailMightyBruins on Mar 27, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about any conspiracy, but I do know about the why

It’s money. I have it on very good authority, from an employee of Fox Sports, that the network really and truly roots for the teams that will generate the most TV revenue. Whether they actively try to influence the game is something I do NOT know. But I would not be totally shocked to learn that something like that might have happened in a particular game or two. I have no evidence or facts to back up that latter point – it is pure opinion and speculation.

by Fox 71 on Mar 27, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just take freaking responsibility

That’s all I’m trying to say. Freaking 12-year-olds whine about refereeing after losses. Be an adult and accept the loss gracefully for God’s sake. If it ever comes down to a situation like the 1972 Olympic Gold Medal Game, where one team had played well enough to win and had the game won, then had it taken away from them by the referees, THEN you could say that you got screwed. But when you get outrebounded 39-26 and turn the ball over 20 times to your opponents’ 11, then you didn’t deserve to win. I really shouldn’t have to be saying this, but jeez, based on the reaction after the game you would have thought our entire starting five had fouled out in the first 2 minutes.

by theslammer on Mar 26, 2009 7:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Okay

You’re going to have to stop using hyperbole to try to prove your point. I don’t see anyone saying what you’re accusing them of saying, so quit beating up the strawman and stay on topic. From here, all it looks like is you trying to quash the discussion. Oh, and please use the “reply” function too.

by Tydides on Mar 26, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Take responsibility?

I didn’t play the game, I don’t have to take responsibility.

I will tell you for the freaking twentieth time, I am not blaming the loss on the referees. I expected us to lose this game, and if you don’t believe me go check my BN bracket (SwitchItOn). I am a fan and I get to discuss the referees if I want to. If you disagree, I don’t mind. I am not telling you what opinion to have and I am not talking down to you, so extend the same courtesy.

Thanks Ty.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Mar 27, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My apologies

I’m not trying to sound all high-and-mighty and condescending—really, I’m not—and I’m definitely not trying to quash the discussion. My attack posts have mostly been directed at the guy who suggested that the NCAA intentionally screwed the Bruins with their seeding and officiating, because that’s a ridiculous idea that doubles as a lame excuse for why we lost to Nova. I don’t mean to characterize BN posters as a whole as guys who just whine about refs and make excuses, because that’s definitely not the case. Nearly every post I’ve read here has been well-intentioned and well-thought-out, and that’s why I came here. It was just one particular post that was so unreasonable that I kind of flipped out.

On discussion…yeah, I think it’s fair to say that Ben’s defensive style is prone to more fouls getting called. When you play aggressive man-to-man defense, you’re bound to get a lot of touch fouls called. That’s how it’s always been and always will be. Ben’s not changing his defensive strategy anytime soon (and for good reason; when it works, it’s fantastic, as seen in the 06-08 tournaments), so we’re just going to have to hope that our new batch of players is fast enough and agile enough to keep up with fast-paced squads like Memphis and Villanova without needing to foul them to prevent them from getting easy baskets. And since Holiday, Malcolm, Jerime, Honeycutt, Moser, and Gordon are all freakishly athletic, I think that we can count on that. If we play a fast team in the tournament next year, I think we’ll be more than ready for them.

by theslammer on Mar 26, 2009 10:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I understand

And I’m not interjecting myself into the conversation. I just see a miscommunication happening, and that’s how flame wars start and I wanted to cut that off at the pass. And could you use the reply button next to your username and date near the bottom of the post you want to respond to? It makes it easier for other people to see the logical flow of the conversation. Thanks.

by Tydides on Mar 26, 2009 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It looks like Villanova is the real reason we lost to Villanova

Their performance on Thursday against Dook suggest that they’re the real deal. I didn’t watch our game with them (another committment which as it turns out I’m glad I had), so I have nothing to add about refs. But the way Villanova looks, we could probably have had six or seven guys on the Court and we wouldn’t have been able to stop them. The refs may have been lousy (they usually are), but they probably didn’t change the eventual outcome.

by Fox 71 on Mar 27, 2009 7:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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