Jrue Holiday Gets It Wrong ...
by Nestor on Apr 25, 2009 11:18 AM PDT
47 comments
Jrue Holiday has been working out to get himself ready for the NBA draft by working out at IMG Academies in Florida. He recently offered an interview while working out that was posted on the academies blog.
The interview is pretty much all fluff with some cute word association games involving Wooden, Howland, and Southern Cal's basketball program. There was one comment thought that I thought was revealing (emphasis added):
On his preseason prediction in Dime Magazine that UCLA would win the national championship… I wouldn’t take it back. I really believed that we had what it took to win. We had seniors in Shipp, Darren and (Alfred) Aboya. I guess we just didn’t play together.
Uh huh. And it's just a matter of time we are going to hear from Holiday's people how Ben Howland's offense held his talents back.
It would be nice if Holiday and the advisers around him admitted that Holiday still has a long way to go to play defense like an elite Ben Ball warrior (or a potential budding NBA star). We saw flashes of it here and there in some games this past season. But when it came to key games it wasn't a matter of our guys not playing together, it was players like Holiday not playing Ben Ball defense.
As mentioned above Holiday had a handful decent defensive games (including one at Pauley East) but time and time again on big stages he got torched by guards such as Abrams and Harden.
Meanwhile, on the offensive here are his point totals from 9 losses which arguably presented the two marquee OCC games, and pivotal conference games that ended up costing us the Pac-10 championship:
Michigan: 13
@ Texas: 3
@ASU: 2
@UW: 8
@ ASU: 0
@AZ: 6
WSU: 1
Southern Cal: 1
Villanova: 4
Except for Michigan game, those are some ugly numbers.
Even if we had gotten barely average performance from Holiday in those games offensively, we might have won 2-3 or those games resulting in different tourney placement. Certainly TOTAL 3 point performance at home v. WSU, ASU, Southern Cal stands out. He laid a ZERO v. ASU in Tempe.
I can't recall how many times we saw Holiday passing up open shots (because he was too tentative) or not attacking the basket. He wasn't scoreless certainly not for lack of mins. Coach Howland gave him all the PT a coach can give a freshman to blossom often at the expense of more defensive minded athletes such as ML.
We can evoke the comparisons to AA and RW. However, those kids didn’t come into Pauley with the hype of number 1 player in the country or the hype of "lottery pick" that gets mentioned wrt his name. I will not mention defensive performances v. Texas, ASU and WSU at Pauley.
He looked out of it and frankly kind of disinterested when the Bruins were taking on ASU at Tempe and also against Villanova in Philadelphia. I saw it from the courtside in Philly when many Bruins in the stands were groaning at his lack of hustle on defense. In contrast, the passion and intensity of ML for playing defense was unmistakable (as noted in the link above). It was pretty clear who was showing more hustle and desire while rotating on defense.
I have to say when I read comments like that from a kid who hasn't shown the performance to match the incredible hype prior to coming into college makes me question his mindset, maturity and readiness for the next level even more.
Whatever. I wish Mr. Holiday and best of luck in the NBA and thank him for his flashes of brilliance when he helped out the team by playing Ben Ball defense "together" with rest of his team-mates.
GO BRUINS.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Who knows
Maybe he would have flourished individually in some other system. Coach Howland’s defense first and team concepts give us the best chance to win any individual game, in my opinion. It could be that young Jrue might have done better at some school where all he was supposed to do was free lance. Hey, that’s it! He would may well have had far better individual numbers under Coach Howland’s predecessor, who had no system at all.
by Fox 71 on Apr 25, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hate to say it...
But I’m not that sad to see JH go to the NBA. Sure, he has shown a lot of potential on the offensive end, but he is neither quick nor lengthy….which to me would limit his defensive potential. JH will struggle in the league, especially against the larger PG’s.
Furthermore, some of his comments over the course of the year have puzzled me. He doesn’t exude that “team first” attitude that you see from other warriors (AA, PA, LMR come to mind). Then again, I don’t know him personally so I could be way off.
Go Bruins.
by hicalliber on Apr 25, 2009 12:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Furthermore, he takes too much attention away from the team. Love didn’t do that last year, although there was a clear spotlight on him, it wasn’t taking away as much from the team as a whole. With Jrue, it always came back to how he hasn’t performed and yadayadayada. I don’t feel a stong “bond” with him in terms of being a Bruin, I never felt like he had the dedication, and his disinterested look in so many games was a big turn off. So, I’m ambivalent about him in terms of his return to the team. If he does return, he’d better show some fire and dedication, because the bottom line is this team doesn’t owe him anything.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
by tasser10 on Apr 25, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holiday
I think of him the same way I think of Ariza. I am glad he came to UCLA and I will be happy for him if he does well in the NBA. However, I don’t feel emotionally invested in him.
And this has nothing to do with resentment. I thought JF left one year early to be honest but I never held that against him. No matter what he did JF always stayed connected to the program and emotionally invested in our basketball team. I sense none of that from Holiday and at this point I don’t really care if he returns or not.
by Nestor on Apr 25, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Want Him Back
I don’t take his statement as damning, at all. And, he put himself in the equation as to what went wrong. (If you recall, last year at this exact time, KL was lamenting on how he didn’t get enough touches, and no one here was bashing him.)
We have gone over JH so many times, no need to do it again.
He had a good season, was deferential and respectful (perhaps to a fault). He never played the “#1 HS player card”, it was played all around him — usually by detractors.
I truly wonder if we would be all over this kid were he coming back. I tend to think we would be looking forward to it, discussing what he ought to be working on to improve, and predicting and RW like break out year.
I hope he comes back.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 25, 2009 3:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
KL
KL lived up to his promise. He soaked up being a Bruin and he gave everything he had in every game while he played under Howland. I can’t say the same about Holiday.
And yes, I know KL is a once in a generation talent. So it’s not fair to make the exact comparison. However, it was reasonable for us to expect Holiday to give that all out effort every game, if he wanted to live up to the hype of being a “one and done” athlete. He didn’t give that effort every game.
by Nestor on Apr 25, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Key difference...
…to build on what N is saying is attitude.
In big games, KL got fired up. He got angry. He wanted the ball because he wanted to score. Because he wanted his Bruins to win. You say KL act a lot like AA: he took it personal. He wanted to win on every possession. Look no further than the game against Oregon at Mac Court. Did you ever see JH play the way KL played in that game? With that kind of passion? With that kind of purpose?
JH, in big games, disappeared. And not for lack of talent. We’ve all seen JH flash some real brilliance on the court. You could see his talent when he turned it on.
Which makes me wonder if JH disappeared when the spotlight was on out of his own self-interest; if he was worried that if he tried to be the man and failed, it’d hurt his stock. Easy to look like a future NBA talent in a weak draft class and bringing your A-game against weak-sauce teams. Easy to shy away and pass the ball to other players when faced with big-time situations. If you cower from the limelight, your potential weaknesses are less likely to be exposed.
For example, look at JS and AA: they gave it their all in every big game they played, and it was exposed that they didn’t have the length and size (AA) or the foot speed (JS) to cover an athletic, long perimeter player like Chris Douglas-Roberts or Corey Brewer. Yet, both of those guys took the challenge and gave it their best shot. Especially after Brewer already torched us once the year prior. I respect the fact those guys did their best (and for AA had his NBA draft stock hurt) by getting beat by Brewer.
Makes me wonder if JH hid from the limelight so that he wouldn’t get exposed. Not saying it’s true: just speculating. Would be real disappointed to find out he has lock-down defensive skills and just lazed off in college.
by Bellerophon on Apr 25, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand what you want from him
In a “fluff” article, in which you write off everything he says that I’d call positive, how can you read so much into a small part of what he said. What was he supposed to say? Right before a draft which he kinda has a lot of stake in (like his future). “I can’t play defense good enough for Ben Howland, but still… draft me”. Or “I’m not ready for college, let alone the NBA, but still… draft me”. Or “I was the star on this team, so whether we won or lost was always my sole responsibility…. and we didn’t do too bad, so draft me.” Accepting responsibility in victory can be arrogant, but so can assuming responsibility in a loss can be just as arrogant. It was never his team, and he was always caught in between trying to do to much and not doing enough.
“it wasn’t a matter of our guys not playing together, It was players like Jrue Holiday not playing Ben Ball Defense”
And since you ARE reading into it, why not take into account that he said nothing to specify we didn’t play together offensively as a group as opposed to defensively. Why assume he wasn’t referring to defense, which we did have problems playing as a team, not just as individuals. And, this together thing is not as ridiculous as it sounds on offense, despite our mind-blowing efficiency. In wins that weren’t decided at the last second, we averaged 17.6 assists as a team. In losses and wins that almost were losses, we averaged 11.9. I see that as fairly telling.
I could go into the stat lines for each of those critical games you mention to show the other ways Holiday was helping the team out (blocks, steals, assists, rebounds), but we’ve talked about that a lot around here too.
I just can’t remember the last news I read on here about Jrue Holiday that wasn’t presented in a light that reflected as negatively as possible on him. I feel like he has constantly been blamed on here proactively for things he has yet to do (leaving for the NBA, hyping himself, Calling out Howland for holding him back in his system).
Anyway, in the words of 66, I hope he comes back too.
by yarrrp on Apr 25, 2009 3:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually I am pretty confident
about what I am reading into it based on what I have heard about what is going on around him. I am not going to share everything on BN. I do believe I have a decent enough track record in terms of reading into situations re. two major UCLA sports.
It was a fluff piece but Holiday is smart enough to know that comment would have reflected negatively on Ben Howland.
You can throw out all the stat lines you want but the bottom line is that the idea of this kid going through the draft process and offering comments that do not put UCLA basketball under Coach Howland (which has nothing to apologize for) is kind of nauseating.
And if you are “hoping” that he is going to “come back” then good luck. It is not happening. He is gone as soon as the first NBA team makes him and his handlers the “promise” of drafting in the first round based on that much hyped “potential”. Like I said I don’t really care if he comes back or not.
by Nestor on Apr 25, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and BTW
You should probably go over to certain message boards and read some of the things from posters (who claim to be very close to Holiday) have been saying about Howland and seniors such as DC and JS. Needless to say it doesn’t make me feel all warm and fuzzy about the Holidays and their commitment to Ben Ball.
by Nestor on Apr 25, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Holidays
expected Howland to bench Darren Collison and make Jrue Holiday the starter, then they were delusional. Yes, there were many moving parts there, and CBH probably expected Collison to go pro and have Holiday become the starting PG. But there is no room for whiners on this team. If things don’t go your way, you have to fight like hell anyways and make the best of what’s been given to you.
Jrue Holiday wanted to come to UCLA because of the program’s history and exposure. He could have gone just about anywhere else. But if you go to a program just because of what’s in it for you, and don’t get exactly what you thought you would, then you’ll be disappointed. I am really tired of this new generation of whiners who blame others for their lack of success. They want everything to be set up perfectly for them so they can just go through the motions and show everyone how great they are without a modicum of challenge. You knew Michael Jordan was the greatest when he scored 38 points against the Jazz in the finals despite having a ridiculously severe case of the flu, not because he dropped 50 on a crappy team that played no defense.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
by tasser10 on Apr 26, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could care less if he comes back
If he comes back, great. We’ll have more backcourt depth. If he doesn’t, I won’t be stressing out about it. I really like what we have in JA and ML, and like I’ve said before, in those guys, I see a lot of similarities to JF and AA when they came to UCLA. JF and AA came in, committed to CBH and team defense, and as a result, are now NBA regulars. In JA and ML, I see a pair of guys who will be here until their junior years (senior if we’re lucky) because like JF and AA, they are committed to defense first and playing within CBH’s system.
We don’t need JH. It’s not because he’s a “one-and-done” type, because losing KL killed me. I’d have done anything if it meant KL would have stayed this year. Imagine KL with PAA next to him, with ND and JK coming off the bench instead of being asked to be starters. Having KL and PAA would have given us a low-post presence and would have given us a tougher interior defense (where ND was real weak), and given us a lot more offensive rebounds (and cut down on opponent’s offensive boards). A lot of the reason we struggled this year is the lack of strong frontcourt play and lack of size.
That’s the key difference to me between KL and JH: we needed KL this year. We don’t need JH next year.
by Bellerophon on Apr 25, 2009 3:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
really?
how will we not need him?…since jerime and malcolm (both as offensively unproven as Jrue) will be running the back court next year. thank god mike roll will be around.
i can accept that you think he hasn’t lived up to expectations. it’s understandable, people can be childish. it’s difficult for me to understand why we think we don’t need him or don’t want him back next year. i don’t doubt anyone’s passion here, but in my opinion, i think it’s just hate…and i think it’s excessive and petty bullshit. he’s an 18 year old kid.
by tajcarny on Apr 26, 2009 1:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Love was also an 18 year old kid
Love as an 18 year old showed a different attitude than Holiday.
I join with the others in saying we don’t need Holiday next year, but I have a slightly different reason. I don’t need him because he doesn’t need us. Love was obviously ready to go to the NBA and it was no surprise that he left. Holiday, in my opinion, is not ready to go to the NBA, but has elected to take his shot. It’s not like Collisson, who I think everyone thought was ready to go but came back to school.
Taj, why do you think this is “hate.” I don’t hate Holiday. When he was a Bruin I was solidly behind him from the start to finish. Now that he is no longer a Bruin, I’m basically indifferent to him. He’s not a trOJan, all of whom I hold in contempt but do not hate. He’s just a kid who passed through my alma mater on his way elsewhere.
I’m a little disappointed that a Bruin would be so imprecise in his (or her – sorry Taj, can’t tell from the name) use of the word “hate.” I looked up the word – it means “To feel hostility or animosity toward; To detest; To feel dislike or distaste for:” I don’t see those emotions in the posts of the others here. I think if anything there’s disappointment and a little sadness. I don’t “hate” you for what I perceive to be your misuse of the word “hate” any more than I “hate” Holiday for what I believe to be a misguided decision and a misperception of his own skill level.
Having said all that, Holiday will undoubtedly prove me wrong by having a banner year as an nba rookie.
by Fox 71 on Apr 26, 2009 3:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't say this for sure
But looking up the word here might not be the best way to figure out what’s going on. With the introduction of lingo like “haters”, “player hater”, and derivatives like “haterade”, the word doesn’t pack the same emotional punch that it once did when my teachers once warned us that hate is an ugly word.
by Tydides on Apr 26, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're clearly a moron tajcarny
I don’t think we need him next year, not in the same way we needed KL this past season. We’ll still have capable backcourt play without JH. As we saw this past season, we lacked frontcourt toughness. ND did a nice job, but we would have been a Final Four team if KL was at center with PAA as his wingman on the block.
Instead of being a JH-lover who can’t pull his head out of his a**, why don’t you actually read what I wrote above, as to why we don’t need JH and why we needed KL, before lobbing accusations of “hate.” I don’t blast JH for being immature about this decision, for saying all the wrong things, etc. (I do in other posts, I admit). Above, I laid out why KL was needed and why JH isn’t. It’s about impact and what our team needs.
I’m not “hating” on JH for the sake of it. I offered up solid reasons, based on our depth and roster, why KL was needed more as a sophomore than JH will be. All you had in repsonse is calling me a hater. And that sir, makes you an idiot.
Thanks for playing.
by Bellerophon on May 9, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JH doesn't matter for 2010...
JH should occasional sparks of greatness, and I’d love to have him return. But given the lack of experience of the skills players (which Drag, Roll, and Keefe are not, they are only role players), the squad will only manage to make the tournament (almost certainly not as the conference champ) and maybe win a game or at the most two — with or without JH. He could make the difference in winning 1 vs. 2 games (or, less likely, 2 vs. 3) in the NCAA, but that’s all. Bruins need to look for a real run in 2011.
by ucla7477 on Apr 26, 2009 12:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Geez, 7477
Should we not bother to field a team next year? I think it’s just a little too early to write us off. For one thing, we have zero losses so far, and if we finish the season with zero losses, I have to say I like our chances.
by Fox 71 on Apr 26, 2009 2:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course we should field a team...
We need everyone to get a year’s experience as starters or key minutes contributors under CBH’s system, so they can be a powerhouse in two years. JH is a prime example that it doesn’t come easily. KL, RW, LRMAM are prime examples that it pays off.
by ucla7477 on Apr 26, 2009 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JH
It’s hard to decide whether Jrue returning or not is that important for UCLA. If he returns, I hope he does the necessary things to improve as a player from his disappointing freshman year. If he does not return, well he really didn’t do that much this past season anyways so it’s not a monumental loss. If he decides to stay, he needs to make sure that he has an attitude adjustment and work. We all know he could have done so much more for the team this past season. He needs to know that if he wants to truly be seen as a great player, he has to take advantage of the opportunities that were given to him, not just stand there and expect someone to give it to him.
by UCLA4Life on Apr 26, 2009 5:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Disappointing Freshman Year"? BS.
We’ve debunked this before, several times and I’m not going to do it again.
Without factoring the numbers for time played, which would improve his standing, JH was 2nd on the team in steals, blocks, and assists, and 3rd in rebounds — playing as a freshman and out of position.
Attitude adjustment? He never complained, deferred to his elders on the team (which may have been a mistake) and obviously pleased the ultimate judge of character — CBH — who used him as a starter and had him play a lot of minutes.
Frankly, I don’t get the “attitudes” of many of my friends around here — so negative about JH, some “psychoanalyzing” him from afar and others labeling him, unfairly.
He is a Bruin warrior who gave us his best for a year. Whether he chooses to come back or not, he deserves more respect than he has been getting.
sjh
PS. BTW — Want to talk about a double standard? Do a search here and find the comments attributed to both KL and his family at about this time, pre-draft, last year. Kevin wanted more touches and his dad noted that Kevin would have scored more had he been given the ball more. I’ve not seen anything as public from JH’s family, actually not seen anything negative from JH’s family, yet KL is OK and JH isn’t?
Sorry, but it is tiring to see this kid punched, over and over again, for what I perceive to be no reason. As I’ve said before, he has not been playing the “#1 kid in high school card” — it is being played against him.
Eating your own is not nice.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 27, 2009 6:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification
At least for me, there two “attitudes” of which I speak.
One is the current one, which to be fair is mostly displayed by his family when they say that Jrue would have done better if it hadn’t been for Ben Howland. A good attitude, in this case, would have been for Jrue to step up and defend his coach and say that he could have played better regardless of his position (whether it is true or not).
The second one might be just my own perception. Yes, statistically he did quite well for a freshman, yes, he did defer to the seniors…but I just couldn’t help but sense a general lack of interest on his part, except for one half of one game. It just looked to me like he was sulking or bored, like his heart wasn’t into it. It’s just my perception, and perhaps he simply has a deceiving demeanor. He never said or did anything wrong…but I simply feel like he does not take criticism very well and loses interest easily…maybe I’ve been spoiled by the true Ben Ball warriors who lay it on the line every single game.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
by tasser10 on Apr 27, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where Can I Find What His Parents Are Saying?
I’ve not read any of it.
Also, we have to remember that KL’s dad, at about this same time last year, said something to the effect that KL would have scored more but for CBH’s “system”. No one asked Kevin to step up and repudiate his dad.
I truly respect everyone’s right to take a position based upon their “analysis” of his demeanor — but I’ve been around long enough to remember some great Bruins who played straight faced through strong careers.
I’ve run into professionals who try to make a living by reading body language; by and large, they fail because there is no body of knowledge that would lead one to accurate and consistent results.
Instead of reading his “body” let’s judge him on his body of work.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 27, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His father
referred to Russell Westbrook as an example of what could happen to Jrue, i.e. he could explode at the next level because he was held back in college.
I know his body of work full well and do value his contribution to the team, and would love for him to come back and show us even more. But truth be told, I am just not that emotionally attached to him as a Bruin right now. Some guys get under your skin (in a good way) and others simply don’t. Jrue hasn’t gotten under mine yet, but there’s a good chance he will if he comes back. I’m not “reading” his body, it’s just a feeling I get when I watch him, I can’t really help it. As I said, his demeanor might just be deceiving (a la Sam Perkins), or perhaps he was mindful of not overshadowing the seniors.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
by tasser10 on Apr 27, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We Agree On One Thing
He’s not on my all time favorites list, either.
It’s hard to be as a one-and-done.
I have a stronger feeling for KL because his personality type allowed him to be more open and I knew much more about him, how he felt about UCLA, and what he was doing in the community. Still, he’ll not be like PAA or DC, to me.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 27, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW -- If That's What His Dad Is Saying, His Dad Is Wrong!
RW actually exploded WHILE at UCLA in his second year — not after he left.
He exploded because he had that year of maturity, teaching from CBH and he used the weight room wisely.
I think RW is the perfect example for one to use in deciding to stay — not to justify leaving.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 27, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We agree mostly
I’m not here to denigrate JH’s attitude, just trying to express how I feel about him as a player (which doesn’t really have to do with ability or contribution to the team). It may just be a matter of personality, or of circumstances. The only way to find out is if he comes back next year!
I also completely agree with you with regards to RW…if anything, that should motivate JH to stick around another year!
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
by tasser10 on Apr 27, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarifications
1.) What I mean by attitude adjustment is that Jrue deferred a lot to everyone else on the team this past season, and he needs to be “the man” for next year’s team if he stays. He needs to take up the leadership void.
2.) As for disappointing, I don’t back away from that comment. It was a disappointing season not so much because of what we expected after seeing what Love can do, but it was disappointing because he did not assert himself as much as we would have expected. He has the talent to have done so much more for the team, and it seemed that he held back either to defer to the upperclassmen or to try to fit in the system. but he did not look at ease just going out there and play.
by UCLA4Life on May 1, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leadership
People here (and previously in the MSM) have banged on JH for not being passionate enough, or playing with emotion, or taking responsibility, or whatever. There is some sense that as a highly-touted high school player, he ought to take more of the load than he did; and some sense that he didn’t do so due to lack of effort.
In a team that had its ‘unquestioned leader’ (DC), it’s ‘emotional leader’(AA2) and another ‘senior leader’ (JS), there shouldn’t have been any need for additional leadership, nor any emotional outbursts to fire up his teammates, from a gifted freshman playing (somewhat) out of position.
I was frustrated at how tentative JH looked over the season, but I don’t think I would have been less frustrated if he had shouted and pounded his chest more. I think it is fair for some guys to become fan favorites due to their visible hustle – LMR and AA2 are obvious choices – but I think we get things backwards if we then start ‘hating on’ players who don’t wear their hearts on their sleeves.
by britishbruin on Apr 27, 2009 10:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i want jrue back too
he would be, by far, the best player on the squad next year. sadly, he probably won’t come back. i suspect he will shine in his workouts (as he is CLEARLY a better player than he showed this year) and climb the draft ladder, especially in such a soft class. did he vanish in some big games? yes. did he get scorched by some 2 guards. absolutely. will he be a stud in the NBA.? i think so and i also think enough scouts will agree that he will have no choice but to go this year. and for those of you who don’t think that the system (as great as it is) held jrue back a little; can you imagine him with the ball in his hands as much as someone like tyreke evans? some may laugh but i honestly believe jrue is a MUCH better player, MUCH more polished than evans who most would say had a very successful freshman year. give the kid a break. he fulfilled one dream by playing ball at ucla. if he gets the chance to fulfill another dream by playing in the league and provide for his family, who are we to judge him? i think the kid is all class and will hold no grudges.
by co2001 on Apr 27, 2009 10:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
1. to think that he does not improve our team is misguided
2. a source close to the team expressed the opinion that the difference between DC of 2007-8 and 2008-9 was that DC was made sharper by going against RW in practice when RW was the backup point, whereas DC wasn’t challenged last year by JA et al. (JH having been installed as starting shooting guard from the start didn’t go against DC). This both suggests that JA et al have a ways to go and emphasizes the importance of having a talented squad, not just a talented starting 5.
by britishbruin on Apr 27, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There Were Plenty of People on BN Arguing that JH Was Being Held Back
in the sense that they wanted to see him on the point and DC at the 2.
To now turn and say that playing out of position did not change his role or output seems a bit unfair.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 27, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are quite right
The way DC was shooting, it only made sense. From a leadership and experience point of view, CBH definitely went the conservative way and did not experiment. I can’t fault him but I’ll always wonder how it would have worked out!
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
by tasser10 on Apr 27, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JF vs JH vs KL
If we look at the recruits of Howland’s who left before their senior season, I have to say I have less investment in both of them.
KL was supertalented and is considered a leader of the team, but was perfectly happy to air his grievances against the playing style in the press and undermine his coach. (I don’t buy the ‘he wanted the ball in his hands so badly because he was such a team player’ story. If he wanted to take that up with the coach, fine; making the comments in the press DURING THE SEASON was selfish and distracting.) If JH is one-and-done, I am glad he didn’t spend his time making a fuss during the season about how the team could be better with DC at shooting guard, or anything like that. He didn’t get much of a chance to show his real point guard skills, and got burned by shooters coming off screens in a way he wouldn’t have if guarding the point. I am glad he stuck it out and didn’t complain (publically, at least).
JF was a leader as well, but he always seemed a big contrast with classmate AA. AA seemed to try to take over games when other people were struggling; JF seemed to try to take over games when the game was nationally televised. AA would show his passion in his play, his drives to the bucket in traffic and in his expression; JF would show his passion by chewing out his teammates when they made mistakes. AA stuck around to try to take the team to the next level and may have hurt his draft stock; JF left when his stock was as high as it was going to get (as he wasn’t, like some college players, waiting for his skills or maturity to catch up with his body)
I am not hating on JF and KL, I am just explaining why I have less investment in them than in others; I would have loved to have them back, and now am less invested because they left. If JH returns, I will be very glad to have him back; if he leaves, I will have little investment in him – but that’s no cause to be bidding him ‘good riddance’ while he is still weighing his decision.
by britishbruin on Apr 27, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
OUCH!
“Hating on.”
What exacttly does “hating on” mean? How does one “hate on” someone? I can understand “stepping on” someone or “vomiting on” someone. But “hating on” is a little non-specific to me. For example, does one’s accuracy with hate diminish with distance, as with a rifle? So if I want to “hate on” someone in Los Angeles from my home in Florida, I may have to be content with just “hating next to?” Or if I’m at extreme close range, and I “hate on” someone with such intensity, is it possible that I may “hate through” someone? Can someone who you don’t exactly want to “hate on” get injured by “hate shrapnel” from a near miss?
And suppose the motion is not hate, just a more milder dislike. Is it possible to “dislike on” someone? This would be reserved for only mild feuds, for example, before a game with Wazzou, whose fans I respect quite a bit. Before a game I might get caught up in the banter, but would only want to “dislike on” them. Can I do that? Last but not least, now that Farmar and Love have gone to the nba, I don’t care about them one way or another. Should I express that by saying “I indifferent on” them?
It hurts me to hear Bruins destroying language by using this sort of absurd, albeit uber-hip, language. And from someone named “British Bruin” no less. A British Bruin should have a little more respect for the Queen’s English than is exemplified by the use of gutter terminology.
OK, end of rant. The Rays’ game is about to start, and I’m going to watch on it on TV. It will be with the sound off, because I relatively dislike on even the Rays’ announcers. Or maybe I’ll just watch on an opera on tape. Opera is an art form that I very much enjoy on.
’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ (That’s a bunch of apostrophes, the misuse of which will be the subject of a separate rant.)
by Fox 71 on Apr 27, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
What a condescending post about one simple phrase: “hating on”. Admittedly it isn’t the most grammatically correct phrase, but whether or not you disagree with its usage, it is in fact a phrase in common usage with sports fans and the younger demographic in general. An extended diatribe about it does the opposite of what you intend — it characterizes you as out-of-touch with your community of Bruins.
Calling someone out for not having “respect for English?” Referring to “gutter terminology”? These are things I wouldn’t normally expect to read from Fox 71, after following this blog (and his commentary) since my freshman year at UCLA.
My name isn't really Iggy.
by IggyQ on Apr 27, 2009 6:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I'm out of touch.
Most conversations here are adult conversations. Most of my discussions in my professional life are adult conversations, with one or two noteworthy exceptions. I was taught by English teachers even before I got to UCLA that it’s poor writing to use trite jargon,swhether it’s “hating on” or “don’t go there” or “twenty-three skidoo,” I have seen “hating on” maybe twice here. Each time I have commented on the fact that it cheapens the English language and lowers the level of the conversation. Each time I have referred to it as the language of the gutter, following the lead of a guy no one here has ever heard of but who was one of the best law professors I ever had. (Prof. Robert Kelly of the University of San Diego School of Law.) Each time I have tried to take on the utter banality known as “hating on” I was “hated on” by someone for being critical of the use of the phrase. But each time, there was only one person taking shots at my criticism. Of course, the absence of criticism does not necessarily mean universal acceptance. At the same time, the BN community has always been pretty free at letting individual positions be known. For that reason, valid or not, I think that my view of this sort of this sort of terminology might have more wide-spread acceptance than you might think, Iggy.
In my youth, I was warned against “pretentious illiteracy.” That was how one lexicographer described the use of really neat sounding but in fact not actual words to describe something. One of my favorites is the word which all cosmetics companies use – you apply your eye make up with an “applicator.” If there is a noun called an “applicator,” then it implies the existence of the verb “to applicate.” I don’t believe such a word exists, but if it does, it’s only because commercials have been convincing people for years that they can’t put on their eye make up without an “applicator.” I think “hate on” is just the opposite. It’s the use of an obviously improper phrase to indicate hipness. [Actually, in the 1920’s (before my time! I read about this!) in England, the upper crust of society liked to use poor language (mainly “aint”) for shock value. It looks like that sort of thing is making a comeback. Iggy – this is your fault!. If in 35 years the phrase “hate on” is a part of the lexicon, then you will have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do. I will by then have joined the choir invisible – I will have become an ex-parrot as it were – and won’t care. But you’ll have to explain to a generation how you insisted on using that silly phrase.
You may be right, though. And if you’re right and my disdain for the phase of the week makes me out-of-touch with my community of Bruins, then it’s time for me to redouble my efforts. Bruins, do you want to sound like adults or like children in your speech? Try arguing a case to the Court by saying the defendant’s car hated on the plaintiff’s car, and that’s what caused the accident.
Actually, Iggy, I believe I am in touch in this respect. As I mentioned, I have only seen “hated on” twice in all the times I’ve looked into the BN. It would appear that I have been doing my job better than we both think if it’s only been here twice. Now, if only I could reach the same community with my campaign to turn the volume down on the TV then I could shuffle off this mortal coil knowing I’ve made a difference. Maybe I should urge younger Bruins to “hate on” the volume.
Not to put too fine a point on it, Iggy, but if you’re a grad or an upper classman, you should be in the process of abandoning puerile phraseology. Like it or not, the people who you are likely to be working for will be adults and will expect you to put away the childish things when you go off to work. If you haven’t had to start the grind yet, then by all means do the opposite of “hate on” and enjoy yourself. Oh, wait – I know. The phrase is “party on.” I got that from Bill and Ted. And if that doesn’t convince you, then all my efforts have been in vain.
(’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ ’ Again more apostrophes, for the next rant on the misuse of that once proud punctuation mark.)
by Fox 71 on Apr 27, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fox
With all due respect, I think you may need to take a Linguistics course. Just because people talk differently or use different words doesn’t make them any less educated. It may “cheapen” the conversation in your eyes. The fact is that times are changing and some words that you may have used or heard in your childhood are now out-of-date.
by lil eg not cs on Apr 28, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
quit
hating on fools hella hardly cuz you iz aint all of something yourself! W0rdDD!!!
by tajcarny on Apr 29, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, taj, when you're right, you're right
I hadn’t ever thought of it quite like that, but you make an excellent point.
by Fox 71 on Apr 29, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I proudly remain astride the horse of proper speech
You can hate on this horse all you want, but it remains the horse I ride on. Or something like that.
So far, there are two guys who don’t agree with my position. One says I’m out of touch, but doesn’t otherwise explain how my dislike for the destruction of the language is somehow wrong. The other says that my horse is too tall, but fails to explain why the height of the horse makes the argument incorrect. I know that this will be taken as a challenge to some of those Bruins who love a debate, and who will parse my prior comments for my own overuse of the hip idioms. Anytime there is an argument about language, the fallout from that argument is beneficial, so bring it on! But do better than “out of touch” and “high horse.”
by Fox 71 on Apr 28, 2009 5:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since you're counting
I’m in the camp of the “gutter speech”, encouraged by the fact that I have never heard someone say “hating on” whilst standing in a gutter, or a gutter speaking for that matter, at least in intelligible English words.
by yarrrp on Apr 28, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I’ve been away frm for a little while, and I really missed out on this one!
(By the way, Fox, I ride, and the very tall horses are most definitely the ones for me, too. I also happen to appreciate your respect for the English language—the language of Shakespeare, Keats, and Elizabeth Barrett Browning, for God’s sake.)
I will admit, perhaps sheepishly at this point, that when I read JH’s comment, “I guess we just didn’t play together,” I took him to mean that they didn’t ever find that magical rhythm to play “together” to the point where they raised the level of their game above the total sum of their estimable skills as individuals. It did not even occur to me that this was a statement about playing time. (Frankly, I suspect I am right about this, given the context of the interview as a whole.) He’s saying that all of the individual ingredients for a national title were in there, but the dough didn’t rise quite enough. I believe he is correct about this.
I do remember KL’s dad making negative comments about KL’s scoring opportunities last year, and I remember thinking, “Mr. Love, don’t tarnish your son’s reputation for good sportsmanship with this whiney crap. He’s the player, you’re just the Dad.” I do not recall KL publically disagreeing with his father, who raised him and loves him. Go figure.
I sincerely read nothing in this article that is unflattering or insulting to my UCLA. Jrue cannot have the places in my heart where LMR, RW, PAA and AA live, because to dwell there requires more time and sacrifice, I suppose. That being said, I’m with 66. I would welcome Jrue back in a UCLA jersey. He is talented, bright, respectful and gifted.
Also, 66 is right on the money about “The RW Effect.” RW “exploded” at UCLA. That is what the NBA reps saw in him throughout the season, and that is what he showed the teams when he worked out for them. Other NCAA players entering the draft were asked which player was the most difficult to play against, and they said, “Russell Westbrook.” That, Dad Holiday, makes you a lottery pick in the NBA.
BTW, I have to admit, tasser, that I really loved Sam Perkins. He was a rock for my Sonics, way back when.
Love My Bruins
by Bruingirl83 on Apr 28, 2009 1:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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