[UPDATED] Goodbye Holiday
by Nestor on Apr 10, 2009 4:28 AM PDT
in Basketball
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PrintHere is the official release from UCLA:
"After speaking with my parents and with Coach (Ben) Howland and the coaching staff, I feel that it is in my best interest to test the waters and see where I land in the NBA draft," Holiday said. "I'm taking this opportunity now so that I can keep my eligibility and keep my options open. I'm not signing with an agent."
Holiday averaged 8.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.7 assists and 1.6 steals per game in 2008-09 and was named to the Pac-10 All-Freshman Team. He scored a season-high 20 points in the win over FIU (Nov. 29, 2008) and recorded his only double-double of the season of 12 points and 10 rebounds in the win over Louisiana Tech (Dec. 28, 2008).
"I really enjoyed my first year at UCLA, being part of such a historic program," Holiday added. "I have a great connection with my coaching staff and love all my teammates, so I couldn't ask for anything more."
Coach Howland as usual is being graciously supportive and rooting for JH to pursue his dream:
"There's no question that Jrue (Holiday) is a first-round NBA Draft pick," Howland said." He's very excited about his opportunity to be an NBA player and I'm 100 percent behind him and proud of him. We are very happy for both Jrue and his family."
Dohn was at the press conference (BTW why did JH had to call a press conference to announce a decision that wasn't any kind of "news"?) earlier today where he got the following intel from Howland and JH's Dad:
In talking to UCLA coach Ben Howland and Jrue Holiday's father, Shawn, the feedback Holiday is getting from the NBA is he will be drafted anywhere between No. 10 and No. 20 in the draft.
He can begin working out for NBA teams April 30, and plans to go to the pre-draft camp May 27-31.
Shawn Holiday said one of the overwhelming factors in declaring for the draft was how former UCLA standout Russell Westbrook saw his stock increase during workouts last season. Like Holiday, Westbrook spent his final season at UCLA playing off-guard, but was drafted to be a point guard.
And here is one of JH's deciding factors in deciding whether to stay or go:
"If I can go in the lottery this year, I think I'm going to stay in and try it," Holiday said.
Again the regular readers here should know by now that he has till June 15 to make up his mind. I am not going to hold my breath and I strongly encourage everyone else not to hold theirs either. I fully expect him to do well in these workouts and then some NBA team to take a chance on him based on his "potential."
What I wish though that we didn't have to go through what I really think is a charade of "testing waters" when it comes to JH. Let's be frank. The kid wants to go to NBA NOW. Again from reading tealeaves all season and his time here it was always going to be "one and done" for him. Hey, that's fine. I wish the kid luck. But I think he owes the head coach that gave him an opportunity to wear one of the most celebrated uniforms in college sport, the courtesy to not string him or UCLA around for a long time putting him and his staff in a tenuous situation scrambling near the deadline.
While I am sure JH and his advisers will make the decision that is in his best interest, it would be nice if they also think about taking into consideration making a decision that would facilitate the transition for Coach Howland and UCLA basketball program as much as practicable.
Knowing Howland and his staff, I am sure they have a plan in place. In fact, now more than ever it makes sense why Howland gave JA all the backup mins to DC, because he knew all along that JH was going to be gone. So, it would be good for everyone involved to get to the final decision soon and move on.
I wish JH best of luck and I will always be grateful for some of the great moments in his freshman season:
Photo Credit: Harry How/Getty Images
I remember his tough game against Southern Cal earlier this season ... but ... never mind ... we have hashed that out enough times here on BN.
I think we always have to remember how it is all about the four letters. Those four letters will always be more important than any individual no matter how great they are in their respective sports.
In my mind I am expecting to follow a UCLA team in 2010-11 that is going to be led by two talented guards - JA and ML - in the backcourt. I can't wait for to follow a group of kids who are going to commit themselves to having a kind of off season that will enable to physically develop and mentally mature Ben Ball warriors, who are going to totally buy into Howland philsophy of defense and rebounding first, and most importantly who are going to cherish every part of being a Bruin.
GO BRUINS.
UPDATE (N): Some interesting comments from Howland re. his recruiting approach in next few weeks while JH makes his decision:
Underclassmen have until 10 days before the June 25 draft to withdraw and remain eligible for NCAA play, so long as they don't hire an agent.
That leaves the Bruins waiting to see if they will have an open scholarship. Howland said his returning players -- as well as incoming recruits Tyler Honeycutt and Mike Moser -- can fill the backcourt and the wing, so he does not plan to "sign someone just to be a body."
That makes me feel a lot better. I would hate for him to go out and waste a scholarship in desperation (cough*Ryan Walcott*cough). As I have maintained all along, with or without JH UCLA is going to be all right. I don't see us competing for the conference title. However, I do a see a team that will be developing into a place where it is going to be well set up for hopefully what will be a great 10-11 season. GO BRUINS.
UPDATE II (N): Per the DN piece today, JH is going to stay enrolled in classes through this "process":
Holiday will remain enrolled in classes and work out near his home in Chatsworth and also at UCLA. He can't begin working out for NBA teams until April 30. "It's not like I'm going to the NBA. I haven't signed with an agent," Holiday said. "It's just testing the waters, to see what it's going to be like at these camps, at these workouts, if I can handle the drills, which I'm positive that I can, and I feel really comfortable going in."
And more from Howland on roster management when should Holiday jumps:
Howland said Malcolm Lee, Jerime Anderson and Michael Roll could all be used at point guard, and walk-on Mustafa Abdul-Hamid might play consistently. Howland added incoming freshman Tyler Honeycutt and Mike Moser could both play off-guard.
Interesting note about both ML and MR being used at point. That could be kind of fun to watch.
Going back to JH another point before I end this update. I don't really get this RW comparison with JH. May be it's just me but I never really saw any similarities between RW and JH's game. RW committed himself to DEFENSE FIRST just like AA. Everything started with DEFENSE for RW. I never got that sense from JH this season on a consistent basis. Yeah, he had some good defensive efforts here and there but it never reached the level of RW or AA.
Moreover, I find it interesting the Holidays thing JH can just enter the draft and "blow up" like RW did last year. Uhm, RW didn't blow up out of out blue and rocketed up the draft charts last season. He was BLOWING up his his entire sophomore season, giving incredibly consistent effort game after game. He had worked his rear end off the entire off season between his first year and the second one, and the results showed as he made himself into a Ben Ball legend. I am sorry to say but I didn't see that from JH. Perhaps if he comes we will get to see it next season (as he will be playing lot of point). But right now I don't see any similarities between RW and JH either in their style of play or the way committed themselves to defense like Ben Ball warriors are supposed to do. GO BRUINS.
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Inevitable
In my mind I am expecting to follow a UCLA team in 2010-11 that is going to be led by two talented guards – JA and ML – in the backcourt.
N, you missed the guard that will likely be the leader of the team next year, MR. I know he isn’t as talented as JA or ML, but he will definitely be key to a successful season next year.
As for JH, it was predetermined that he would declare at the end of this year. Whether he was a one-and-done or not, he definitely isn’t a three year player so it has always made sense that he would declare this year if for nothing else than to get feedback. The only question has always been would he come back. If he is using being a lottery pick (as opposed to say, a top 10 pick) as his basis for staying in, I worry for him. I could definitely see an “advisor” telling him that he will be a lottery pick (meaning 13 or 14th) and then on draft night he is sitting in the green room waiting to see if he will be picked 20th.
And as for the RW comparison, I really don’t want to bash JH, but the fact that they both played shooting guard instead of point is about the only thing they have in common.
You nailed it
JH has to be torn between what guys are telling him and what could actually happen (sitting in the green room waiting and waiting) on draft night. I spent about an hour tonight visiting every mock draft board I could find and it seems like JH is nowhere near being a consensus lottery pick. There has to be a small seed of doubt as to whether or not he’s actually ready to make a big impact in the NBA. He’s only 18 years old! I have no doubt his stock will rise if has a break out year next year at UCLA. But, it’s that old, “a bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush” thing. Who can resist an immediate big fat payday.
Can you imagine if RW had tried to leave after his freshman season. That sophomore season was HUUUUUGGE for RW.
by Homebruinbeer on Apr 9, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Comes down to the predraft workouts. AA tested and came back. Perhaps JH will as well.
by 84 on Apr 9, 2009 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions
True
It all comes down to the predraft workouts. I hope JH kicks butt and lands himself an awesome job. But I will so welcome him back if decides to return.
by Homebruinbeer on Apr 9, 2009 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep
You are right about MR. I am going to write a post re. lineup/rotation for next year sometime in the future … not sure when. The thing is when I think of MR … I think of him at the 3 spot but you are right … he will probably get a lot of time at the 2 as well.
Another thing about RW comparison that’s a little silly … it was not a surprise to anyone that RW blew up during NBA draft workouts … he was BLOWING UP throughout his entire sophomore season. Can’t say the same about JH’s first year.
I say go recruit like he's gone...
the presser should be good enough evidence. Let’s mop-up some blue-chips
Bruin-4-Life!!!
Jrue's dad
Is it just me or does seeing JH’s dad sit next to him bring back memories of the Washington game where he was cheering on UW? I know he loves his kid and this is completely irrational, but I feel like he hates UCLA and is taking pleasure in causing us pain.
I don't think his dad has a huge preference in the UW/UCLA games.
Mom was in the good guys section, dad in the UW representing the brother. Nothing wrong with that. He was in our section in the bay area, and overall he is a good father supporting his children in their pursuits. It would be hard to believe he and JH would have nothing but the highest regards for CBH and the program.
by 84 on Apr 9, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
The parents split their support for the UW/UCLA games
I’m no parent, but that seems like a fair and good parenting choice to me. I suppose the only thing better would be to do what Josh Shipp’s mom did and get the ASU/UCLA hat.
was joking
I was just saying that the only times that Holiday’s dad has really been shown in the media it has been in conjunction with less than desirable situations for UCLA fans. I guess what I wrote could be read that I was serious, but I was joking about it. Calm down.
Might as well
Weak draft this year = might as well give it a shot. It certainly didn’t help Collison to stick around another year. Still, the kid barely made an impact and certainly wasn’t a consistent presence on the floor. Not a lottery pick. Good luck.
No Surprise
It is well known that he has been unhappy for awhile so this should not come as a surprise to any UCLA fan. Whether he stays or goes, I wish him the best. However, if he goes, he will have to go down as one of the biggest disappointments in UCLA history. National POY leaving with an avg of 8.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.7 assists per game. Never before has a player with more incoming hype left without leaving a real mark on the program. 1 year or 4, he will always be a Bruin and I will root for him in the league, but we’ll all be left to wonder what might have been.
Random Points
RW turned pro after 2 years, not after his first year. I would say he was the equal of JH in his first year, but his second year play far surpassed what is now JH’s body of work. I continue to believe that JH would blow up, in the same manner RW did, were he to hit the weights hard and come back for a second year. But, it looks like he won’t.
Does this mean that JH will stop going to class like KL did last year? Doesn’t this hurt our program in some way?
Sorry — but I continue to oppose one-and-dones. They take and waste a valuable spot on campus. How many quarters of school did he actually attend? How many classes? Can anyone say that any one and done takes advantage of the academic side of our great university?
If we take these kids, knowing they will attend at most two quarters, can we really claim the moral high ground against schools that take kids that barely qualify for school and use them, as athletes, for a short period of time?
What’s the difference in total overall value to the academic institution? I really don’t see it.
sjh
I am frustrated too
Its fair to be frustrated by these one and done players, especially when speaking of Jrue Holiday as he really did not make the kind of positive impact on our program that a Kevin Love or Derrick Rose had in just one season on their respective teams. If Holiday leaves after this season, I will not remember him fondly as a Bruin (though I will have no ill will toward him either). He has been nothing more than a serviceable 2 guard that never really left his mark on our program. With the hype and potential that Holiday came to Westwood with, he will need to stay another year and actually live up to the hype a little in order for me to say that he made a contribution to, and left his mark on, the UCLA program. I truly believe that he was not a crucial player in any of our wins all season, nor did he step up and bail us out in any of the games that we lost but had a chance to win.
However, we cannot stop recruiting the best players in the country just because we’re afraid they might leave after one season. For an example of what that would look like, see Duke since Elton Brand and Corey Maggette left early. Kryzewski has not gone after anything but 4 year players since and their program has suffered considerably since. They have had some good teams but have not been great in a long time. The REAL problem here is the rule these kids are faced with that they must be one year removed from high school before declaring for the NBA draft. It is really ruining the landscape of college basketball. The rule needs to be changed to either allow these kids to go straight to the NBA or make them stay in college for 2 seasons.
yea
this one done thing need to chang. either the nba needs to somthing or ncaa need to somthing.
Count me in.
I’m pretty frustrated by it all. I guess mostly because I didn’t see NBA game in JH this year. Kevin Love was another story. While I would have loved having him around another year, and felt then as I do now, that he could benefit from another year working on his game, JH really can benefit from another year under CBH.
What I’m saying is in this era of One and Doners, if you are going to come in and bide your time for a year with us can you at least put some Kevin Love type numbers or a banner like Carmelo did for Syracuse?
A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden
I'm still a fan of baseball's rule
If you want to go pro out of high school, do it. If you choose to attend college though, then you must stay for three years.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Apr 9, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I definitely agree with that format
but i do feel two is enough for basketball. RW had a break out year after a quiet first year, and I feel that staying one more would not have helped his development or draft position. I understand the rule is there to protect programs over individual players, but i think the development of baseball players is generally a slower process than with basketball players, and two years seems like a fair compromise to me.
O.A.
i would love for that to happen in basketball
but I agree with Ollie. I think 2 years is enough…the point is the same though
by bucknellbruin on Apr 10, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Agree, but with the above caveat of 2 years, rather than 3.
The Association could work with the NCAA to include a provision allowing HS/prep players who are not drafted to retain collegiate eligibility, but that would lead to more difficulties regarding athletes having received $$/agents, as well as in recruiting; schools having to leave scholarships open for players that may or may not be drafted.
Also, the NBA wants a strict 2-year rule
Essentially the current one-and-done rule, but requiring players to spend 2 years in college (or playing overseas) before becoming eligible for the draft. Stern pushed for this rather than the one-year rule in the last CBA, and I suspect he will do so again in the next round of negotiation.
This does not come from 3 wealthy alumni, I swear.
The One and Done Generation of College Basketball is frustrating
It seems like the way to get back to the Final Four/Championship game is to recruit kids that are marginal 1st round talents. Most kids use the lottery as the barometer for whether or not they are going to declare for the draft. There have been a number of college players that were very good college players – but did not have the particular attributes that the NBA desires – thereby putting them in the late 1st to early 2nd round of the draft. These athletes tend to return to school – and they do so with a purpose/grudge (that’s why losing LRMAM was so painful last year – if he would have come back this year’s team would have been significantly better).
So here’s to CBH having the singular ability to recruit kids that are just good enough to be really good college basketball players (or that they have some minor personality flaw that doesn’t hurt the team or that they are injury prone at the right time of the year) – while not having the skill set/physical attributes that makes NBA scouts drool. Unfortunately, I fear that ML may be the next BenBall warrior to be highly coveted by the NBA. However, on an upbeat note – this year’s class of incoming recruits may be exactly what we are looking for – as each of the players that CBH has recruited has significant upside – but each of them seem to have some flaw that keep them in school for a few years.
Trying to achieve any type of consistent success in contemporary college basketball culture seems like an exercise in futility. We should really appreciate the 3 consecutive FF’s that CBH lead us to. I believe that he will lead us to many more – and that he will eventually lead us to that elusive 12th banner sooner rather than later. But for today – this is disappointing news!
by freudianslip on Apr 10, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I really like the baseball rule.
Either you go straight to the draft outta high school OR
You must go at least three years to college
by harveyismyboy on Apr 10, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions
But I can see so many going straight to the NBA instead
Especially with baseball, since you usually spend a few years in the minors before you make it to the big leagues. If you’re willing, go to college or live poorly in the minors.
Eh
From the stance of wanting to get his family quick money in a struggling economy, I can see why he did it (although the title of the thread’s pretty misleading; yeah he declared, which we all predicted weeks ago, but he hasn’t hired an agent so he’s not officially gone). If he stays in, it’s a shame for UCLA though…who else longs for the days when guys had to stay four years and you actually had dynasties in college basketball that lasted longer than the last three weeks of one individual March?
if he goes...
i figure it will be something like sitting down at a world class restaurant and only get the first course. the system is what it is. i wish these guys would stay in school, but they’ve got to look out for numero uno. i would like to emphasize the difference in response from cbh and petey, it’s called class.
as far as hiring an agent, he should take his time if he’s not sure about going. cbh will know what’s going onand will plan accordingly. it’s no surprise that xavier thames,our contingency pg recruit, is trying to get out of his recent wsu commitment. and i wonder if cbh will make a play at say john wall or nolan dennis and what is up with lance stephenson? either way, best of luck to jh and i hope he and his family come to a decision that suits them best
Across The Face
Holiday leaving is not a slam dunk
Nestor, thanks for all your hard work. I agree with you that there is a very high probability that JH will bolt for the NBA but I don’t think he would be stringing CBH / UCLA along even he waits until the last possible moment to decide. I think he really isn’t sure of himself at this point. You have to remember that this is an 18 year old (kid) were talking about. He’s probably pretty nervous about going up against full grown men at the next level. On the one hand, he’s got people telling him he’s ready and on the other, he knows he didn’t exactly dominate at the college level. I’m thinking he might secretly wish he wasn’t expected to enter the draft so he could stay another year and not look crazy for doing so.
Coach Howland's take is perfect
In my non-expert opinion, Holiday does not come particularly close to having the credentials that Mbah a Moute, Westbrook and Love had after last season. That’s not to say he isn’t good and it’s not to say that he may not become an NBA all star, but he just doesn’t seem to me to be the same kind of standout that the previous three were.
But where was Coach Howland? He was one hundred per cent behind his player, and touting him as “a first-round NBA Draft pick.” I have not doubt that Coach Howland is sincere, and thinks that this young man’s opportunity to make big money doing what he loves best is something he can pursue.
Hey Mark Sanchez – how did your presser with Cheatie Petie go again? I guess Coach Howland didn’t think that Holiday needed to be “tested.”
Absolutely. There would be an available scholie ... but
but you are in the game kinf of late. UCLA is currently showing love to a kid named Xavier Thames (I think) who is getting his release from WSU after Bennett’s departure. But Thames, a good player, is only a 3 star (for what that’s worth).
We're going to take a look at Thames, Xavier Henry and Nolan Dennis
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Apr 9, 2009 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions
He's leaning that way, but nothing's done yet
He got his release from Memphis and most assume he’ll go to Kansas because they were so close the first time around when he decided on Memphis. He’s going to take a look around now though and while Kansas is the favorite, nothing has been decided.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Apr 10, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
No Heart, No Nothing
Jrue, for all this alleged talent, did nothing for UCLA. I appreciate and respect everyone’s wishing him well here, but I can’t muster more than ambivalence. There have certainly been underclassmen who have left early the last few years who I’ve been sorry to see go, but he won’t be one of them. I don’t know the kid, and I have no opinions regarding him as a person, but really what’s the point of coming to a top-tier, defense-based, serious program like UCLA if you’re going to leave with nothing to show for it? He’s going to go somewhere in the late first round, and he’s going to regret a lot of things.
The core of CBH basketball is heart and proving yourself, and nothing Jrue did this year showed me either of those things. There was no “LET’S GO” moment and no clutch performances. There was no anything. If he leaves now after coasting through a mediocre year, I can’t really call him a Bruin. He was just a bystander.
I don’t wish him any ill will. I just don’t care—he gave none of us any reason to.
This Team was Flawed - it wasn't just JH
On another Bruin related website – someone brought up the notion of dynamic backcourt duo’s – and how DC and JH never clicked like AA1 and JF, AA1 and RW, and RW and DC did. I replied that each of those duo’s had a clear cut alpha dog – and a number 2 (JF, AA1, and RW). I think part of the problem with this year’s backcourt was that both DC and JH played more like number 2’s – and there was no clear cut alpha dog on this team. This is no knock on DC – I am absolutely a big fan of his. However, he never seemed fully comfortable with the leadership role that was ineluctably thrust upon him this year. In fact, this team as a whole did not really have a legitimate alpha dog (Aboya or Shipp were our most spirited upper classmen – but I’m not sure that either would be characterized as an alpha dog).
I think our most vocal player was DG – and some of his outspokenness seemed slightly immature at times. I think his attitude will be infectious next year – and he will learn how to use his voice to motivate his teammates. I was looking forward to JH coming back next year – as I hoped that he could become that alpha dog in the backcourt – and he and ML would form a new dynamic duo (with JA and ML to follow). I still think JA and ML could form a dynamic duo (with ML being the alpha – and JA the number 2) – but I don’t know how that will take shape next year (and as I stated previously, I fear that ML might be the next BenBall warrior to leave for the NBA early).
This team had a huge discrepancy between the senior’s that deserved respect on the court from the seniors – a bunch of role players that don’t seem to have real strong personalities – and a highly touted freshmen class. The way this team fit together – it just never gelled – and it was obvious on the court. I think this team would be pretty good next year with JH – and could make some waves in the tournament – but our real shot was and still is going to be in 2010/11 (Josh Smith please let CBH prepare you for the NBA – even if you underperform he can still get you in the first round).
by freudianslip on Apr 10, 2009 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I considered DC
the clear cut number 1 and leader of last years backcourt. I agree that there may not have been the same chemistry, but I don’t think thats because DC necessarily backed away from a leadership position.
O.A.
It may just be a matter of semantics, but
I guess I would make a distinction between an alpha leader and a number 1. While DC was unquestionably a leader on this particular team – I’m not sure that he has the natural disposition to be an alpha male. Some guys just have that innate alpha leader quality – while others not so much.
Don’t get me wrong here – I greatly appreciate DC’s contributions to this program and am a BIG fan of his – so please do not mistake what I am saying as negativity. I just get the sense that DC is more comfortable as a number 2 (or a number 1A if that’s better). Alpha males are like AA1, JR, and RW to some extent. In the NBA they are Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and even Brandon Roy (just to name a few). Guys like Carmelo Anthony are clearly number 1’s – but they may not be alpha male type leaders.
JH Had a Strong and Productive Year
I don’t want to go through the numbers, again. We did it several times during the season.
Playing off position, he played a lot of minutes and made significant contributions. We all know where we were weak on this team and JH was not the weakest link.
We’ve also discussed the “leadership” issue. I think it fair to say he was respectful and deferential to the seniors on the team — that’s a good quality. Don’t think so? Think OJ2 in his year at sc.
We did see some of that passion and “Let’s go” come out in the tournament — especially when he was at the point which he played very well. (There are some here who argued for putting him at the point all season long. When he was there, he was very good.)
I truly believe that if he comes back, JH will be the superstar people thought he would be this year. He will have the ball in his hands and be in the position in which he is most comfortable. I think we will see him slashing and being more creative with the ball — something we needed all year to quiet the naysayers.
If he goes, I will miss JH, a lot. He seems to be a very good kid.
But, as I’ve said, over and over, and in this thread — the one and done system does not belong in college basketball, it is disrespectful of higher education, turns a great university into a farm team and denigrates the student experience.
sjh
I don't get his thought process.
He is going to college for free (except books,food etc), has made some great friends, and will be the starting PG for the best and most storied college basketball program ever if he comes back, but he wants to leave now? He is slapping this school and team and bball friends across their respective faces. He will go from pick 15-20 to pick 5 next year if he returns, which means that in the long run he will get more money if he comes back for 1 more year (There is a huge difference between 5 and 15-20 money!)
good luck holiday
but in slim chance if you come back, thank you
as long as dragovic doesn’t declare and next years highly ranked freshmen are more ready to contribute from day one, call me an optimist buy we might be alright next season.. we could be very good the following season. just think about who is not coming back next year in the pac 10 – zona, asu, usc, uw players gone to early departures/graduation.. even stanford, wsu losing a few of their leaders. i look at cal, uw our real challengers. osu might be in the top 4 next year.
Recall, folks, that ML played point in HS...
… and, as a team guy, played some C his senior yr in HS because no one else could play it better.
I am usually opposed to having your #1 AND #2 PGs playing at the same time, due to fatigue, bench rotation, foul trouble, etc. Plus, overall, I think ML is one of our best players going into next season. Don’t get me wrong, JA has the tools, and I do believe he will improve significantly next season… but again, I don’t like having both ponits on the floor to start the game. In crunch time, maybe, but not at the outset.
With that in mind, how is THIS for a potential starting lineup next year?
C — Gordon — 6’9", 235
PF — Keefe — 6’8", 235
SF — Drago — 6’9", 215
SG — Roll — 6’5", 215
PG — Lee — 6’5", 205
However, this would hinge ENTIRELY on whether Drago can put in a full summer of workouts and improve his woeful defensive rotations. I know, I know, I KNOW that we have debated Drago’s lack of defensive footspeed around here for WEEKS.
Then again, nobody predicted that Drago would EVER average 5-6 boards a game last year… and he DID. Believe me, I was as surprised as anyone on that front. If Drago can devote his summer to improving his lateral slides and reaction time, the same way he worked on improving his shooting consistency and rebounding, HOLY MOTHER OF HEAVEN.
If we start the above lineup, we get serious advantages:
(1) Backcourt size — can anyone remember when we started a both-6-5 backcourt? Didn’t think so. Malcolm’s hustle and length and ROll’s experience in CBH’s schemes should do wonders to negate any possible lack of wtaerbug quickness. Worse coems to worst, we bring in JA to check smaller guards and fight pace with pace, but at elast we START with the size advantage.
(2) Frontcourt size — 6’9", 6’8", and 6’9". That’s 242 inches of frontcourt. We have not had size like that since 2006, with Hollins, Luc and Cedric. Even the 2008 frontcourt with KL had only 239 inches of height. Call me crazy, but for a team built on rebounding and defense, it always struck me as odd that we started a 6’5" SF. I don’t know if we can do that anymore without LMRAM going above and beyond at the 4 spot anymore.
(3) Offensive balance — OK, what do we have…
Two outside shooters? Drago and Roll, CHECK.
Mid-range game? Roll has shown that even in limited minutes, CHECK.
Penetrator? Malcolm, CHECK.
Low-post scorer? Gordon was showing a bit more of a pure post game than PAA, and Drago was also showing some down the stretch, so CHECK.
Clean-up/ putback guy? Keefe, CHECK.
By contrast, what did we have this past season? Let’s look in reverse.
Clean-up/ putback guy? PAA, definite CHECK.
Low-post scorer? Eh… sort of. PAA’s points came more on putbacks or midrange game, rarely from an actual on-the-blocks move. Drago showed some, but not til the very end. HALF-CHECK.
Penetrator? Not consistently. We screamed for DC for weeks to do it; JH STOPPED doing it halfway thru Pac-10 season. (ML will be another big X factor here, too.)
Mid-range game? Josh, but really not much else. CHECK.
Two outside shooters? Drago and Josh and DC, DEFINITE CHECK (perhaps too much of one).
M
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
just to chime in on Gordon...
if Bobo steps up, and possibly one of the freshman, I see him moving to PF and backup C. I think the only reason he’s been at center is because Bobo and Keefe didn’t develop as expected.
I think DG's athleticism, shotblocking and hustle are key factors...
…and they could serve to compensate for any missing skils/ traits of our guys at the 2 through 4 spots.
MIM
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
i don't see howland using that lineup
i know he’ll opt for experience and start one or possibly 2 of the seniors, but i think he’ll go for more athleticism (i.e. not all 3 seniors) and a faster team whether it be JA, honeycutt, moser, nelson, bobo, stover – couple of those guys will emerge i think and get minutes/starting position. The lineup u propose would be even worse defensively than the one we had this year.
also as far as starting 2 only pg options ML and JA – I don’t think Howland would hold back. Remember two years ago we had DC and Westbrook as our starting backcourt with no backups pretty much.
by realfabfive on Apr 10, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Having DG and ML's athleticism at the 5 and 1 should help...
… make up for any perceived lack of quicks at the 2 thru 4. Again, the key HAS to be ND. If he improves to be at least JS-like at the 3 on D, then I think this lineup could work.
MR and JK both know how to play solid TEAM defense, and that should not be overlooked. Last year, ND and JH did not know how to play consistent D under CBH’s schemes, and it showed. JH had great quicks for a SG, and ND should have had more quicks than an average PF, and both got lost. Knowing where to go was a missing skill-set which both MR and JK should have.
M
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
you are right about roll
i believe he’s a better all around player and defender than people think..
but i’d pick dragovic as most likely starter, followed my DG and ML. JA will probably start at pg, unless he starts being the turnover machine like late this season again. I think the 5th spot is totally open.. could be a big guy like bobo, nelson or stover, but could easily be honeycutt or roll too.
next year is really a crapshoot.. we have so many unknowns.. we only have youtube clips of the freshmen- maybe some will be mentally and physically ready to start like farmar and mbah a moute, others might be more of projects who need to gain confidence and hit the weights like some of last years players.
JH/RW
In agreement on the Papa Holiday take. There is no doubt that JH will be a Top 20 pick and can even get himself into the lottery based on pre-draft workouts. What Papa and Jrue is forgetting is that Westy was our starting PG for a decent chunk of our season with DC out. During this time, we all could clearly see his decision making and feel for being a PG improve. Westy then continued to reinforce the ability to play PG during the season and then killed the workouts. That is the reason why Westy shot up the draftboards.
JH on the otherhand has no experience being the PG at the major college level. If JH wants to be a significant player in the NBA, this is the position he will play and needs to master. Even if JH performs during the workouts, scouts will still question whether he can actually run a team during live games. His future success and longevity in the NBA will be determined by his ability to be a PG. Otherwise, at best, he’ll be a combo guard off the bench due to his lack of height/size. This is what the Holidays need to focus on because if JH does prove that he can be a PG, he’ll be at the very least, Top 10.
Lastly, there are a lot of issues with 1 and done but this should NOT deter CBH nor UCLA from recruiting the cream of the crop. I’ll take a 1 and done player any day. If not, we should stop recruiting Josh Smith/Tony Wroten/etc. The key is to blend them with guys that are likely 3 to 4 year players. And don’t forget that some of these guys think their 1 and done but end up staying a lot longer for differing reasons.
At the risk of beating a dead horse...
One issue thats been mentioned but not discussed is the defensive difference between RW and JH. At worst, an NBA team was getting a super atheltic, raw, defensive stopper when they drafted RW. He was Pac 10 defensive player of the year, after all. There was little doubt he would be able to stay in front of NBA guards with his quickness, strength and instincts on the defensive end. His steal totals this year in the NBA confirm this (to some degree). An NBA team could afford to draft him for this skill set alone, and give him time to adjust and develop an offensive game that was steadily emerging in his sophomore year (and has continued to blossom with OKC).
Holiday? He has not shown anywhere near the same capabilities for any consistent period of time. Yes, he played DeRozan hard in the second half in one matchup, but other times we had to go to ML because JH was not able to assume the role of stopper we bestowed on him as the heir apparent to AA1 and RW. So an NBA team would draft JH purely on potential. He could (and arguably should) develop into an elite talent both offensively and defensively over time. But right now, for an NBA team to draft him they are relying solely on what might be, whereas with RW there was at least some degree of certainty from the beginning that he could contribute right away.
by NorCalBruin08 on Apr 10, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I have a serious question
The Kid is going to be a multimillionair in the NBA.
His family should say: Look, you can have the scholarship for 2010. in the unlikely event Jrue comes back, we will pay his way for the first two quarters of the 2009-2010 year. That way you can offer the schollie to someone and Jrue will just be a normal non-scholarship player and we have one fewer walk-on.
That seems like the classy thing to do.
"when you've seen how big the world is, how can you make due with this?"
by silverlakebruin on Apr 10, 2009 10:17 AM PDT reply actions
They'll understand what they've missed until they're gone...
Nestor is right on in his assessment. And I only appreciate CBH all the more given his graciousness with these players who leave early and the challenge of maintaining an elite program.
And for those players who leave after Year 1, they are losing out on so much! They lose out on a UCLA education – the finest in the world! And for kids who play for CBH they are losing out on the best basketball education in the world! Look at the LAT article this week on Jordan Farmar’s playing challenges and you wonder “what if he spent another year or two under CBH….”
And last, my view is that while we appreciate the contribution of any player who wears the four letters on their jersey, they don’t deserve the same stature as the four-year player who played not just for themselves but for their teammates and their University. Those who play through are the ones that are enshrined in UCLA history and that’s a legacy worth having.
OK, I feel better now…
Jrue's mind must be on holiday
ML, DG, and JA showed lots of energy and a gung-ho attitude on the court, but JH didn’t have the killer instinct or basic competitive fire we need. As a simple example, right before tip-off of the UCLA vs. U$C Pac-10 tournament game, Taj Gibson had an us-vs-the-world scowl on his face, while a few feet away, JH was chewing gum and casually staring with a vacant look in his eyes. It was pretty clear who brought more game that night. Often throughout the season, JH just didn’t seem to care that much.
Maybe JH is a modest and unassuming guy, but I found today’s fishwrap quote rather telling: “The most frustrating part for me was not getting as many touches as I thought I would,” Holiday said. “There were times when I’d be like, I’d love to be in Darren’s position.” You’ve got to wonder about the intelligence of a guy who steps onto the court with a three-time-Final-Four guard and expects to get lots of touches as a freshman. Add to that the sense of entitlement in that quote, and you’re not looking at a scrappy, tough-as-nails, do-what-it-takes Ben Ball Warrior.
A player with JH’s natural talents is a plus, but since JH lacks the right mental makeup, let’s look on the bright side. His spirited fellow freshmen will get to play bigger roles in his place.
That's a bit unfair
I recall DC expressing a similar sentiment when he was a freshman, wondering why he wasn’t getting as many opportunities as Jordan Farmar. It didn’t reflect a lack of intelligence or scrappiness; he was just eager to contribute more.
Can you provide a source
Do you have a link for DC making that comment? Recalling without backing it up is not good enough here on BN.
A quick search turns up one of the quotes I remember
From Darren’s father, quoted in the fishwrap on 1/4/07 :
“Darren would call after practice last year and say, ‘Dad, coach says whoever practices best gets the start and I’m beating Jordan in practice.’ I would just laugh and tell him maybe he’s biased.”
The link you gave
Doesn’t have that quote. And the quote you provides is not the same as the quote JH gave to LAT today. JH came across as someone who was whining about not getting as many touches as he thought he would. He gave off a sense of entitlement that doesn’t come across anywhere in DC’s quote you provided above or in the article you linked.
Plus don’t compare JH to DC. DC is a Bruin who gave his blood, sweat and tears for four years. He is a Ben Ball legend. JH has a long way to go to get to that level.
I cut and pasted
the quote from that article. It’s there, just not on the first page.
Of course Jrue has a long way to go to get to DC’s level. After DC’s freshman year, he still had a long way to go too. To me, the fact that they both wanted more opportunities to contribute doesn’t translate to a “sense of entitlement” in either case.
Uh no
DC’s comment didn’t come across as someone who was second guessing the coach’s decision. JH’s comment is kind of frustrating specially given the context some posters (who appears to be close to his entourage) have been whining behind the premium walls of message boards in recent months.
Please don’t make the comparison between DC and JH here again. They are not comparable. Maybe JH will come back because of a miracle and live up to the hype created by his high school career and his advisers/scouts. But until he does that and display the same passion and hunger DC has shown as a Ben Ball warrior during his four years in Westwood, don’t compare these two athletes again.
We liked KL not only because of his performance on the court but through all of his actions he never left any doubt how much he enjoyed being a Bruin and enjoyed is experience as a UCLA student athlete. I never got that feeling from JH and right now I am not all that attached to him or emotionally invested in him, I have been with other Ben Ball warriors.
I think the comparison is fair ...
if taken in context (DC’s quote is buried on page 3 of that article, btw). DC and JH were both freshmen when they made these statements and both played in the shadow of an upper-classman. In that context, and forgetting about everything DC went on to contribute to our program for the next three years (as if we could), their statements aren’t really that far off. I choose to side with VanAaron’s take on JH’s statement, but I can see how it could easily be interpreted either way.
Found the quote from the fishwrap aka LAT times today's (4/10) edition
“Coming out of North Hollywood Campbell Hall High as the Gatorade national player of the year, the shooting guard averaged 8.5 points, 3.8 rebounds and 3.7 assists this season, numbers that put him on the Pacific 10 all-freshman team but fell short of the hype surrounding his arrival in Westwood.
A natural point guard, he dealt with playing out of position, watching senior Darren Collison run the offense.
“The most frustrating part for me was not getting as many touches as I thought I would,” Holiday said. “There were times when I’d be like, I’d love to be in Darren’s position.” "
Being Too Hard On JH
IIRC, KL, who is revered, even though he was a one and done, said the same thing after his freshman season.
I take both KL and JH as saying that they wanted to contribute more but deferred to the older leadership on the team.
JH certainly did. He wasn’t playing in position at point. " … I’d love to be in Darren’s position …" could be “I’d love to be point guard” (which was Darren’s position.) And, many here thought he should have been the PG with DC at the 2.
Of the many things I don’t like about the one and done system, perhaps the worst is the criticism of the player who is choosing to go. I really appreciate JH for who he is and what he did and would like to see him back.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Apr 10, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've been trying to figure out how to explain my thoughts on this
and you just did it for me. I agree with everything you said.
by Ryan Rosenblatt on Apr 10, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Not trying to create a tempest...
But I think that Co66 is correct is his recollections about KL. There was something about JH’s playing attitude that showed up occasionally this year that sort of telegraphed where his mind might heading in terms of his future.
Here’s a similar take on the LAT piece…
From Oregonlive.com:
“Would Holiday have been better had he had a chance to play the point full-time? Maybe so.
“The most frustrating part for me was not getting as many touches as I thought I would,” Holiday said Thursday. “There were times when I’d be like, I’d love to be in Darren’s position.”
I coach youth soccer and have done so for 15+ years and there’s a couple of responses when you take a kid out of a game. One is “I really want to get back in coach and I will do whatever I can do to help the team” and the other is almost a sulking, silent communication around “what are you thinking by taking me out?” To be clear, I don’t read minds and this is conjecture and not meant in any way to denigrate a kid who is trying to make the decision of his life (to this point).
But interesting perspective from KL recorded in January 2009 in the below…
Hoopsworld.com – Kevin Love speaking of coming out of UCLA early:
“It’s tough to say, I do wish I had a little more time to mature a little bit more, but if you going to be a top five or top ten pick and you have a chance to go out after one year, it’s almost a no-brainer because that’s all it takes. Another year will just get people to critique your game even more and say more stuff, so it really just didn’t make any sense to stay.”
In other words it’s always a judgment call by the player and their “advisers” on when to roll the dice. For KL it’s working. I think for JH the consensus is stay and learn, but if you’re heart feels like you haven’t gotten what you wanted, good luck to whatever you do. I’m confident that CBH made the right calls in playing JH as he did for the better of the team.
by 281bruins on Apr 10, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He'll get plenty of opportunities
to be in that position and get a whole bunch more touches if he comes back next year.
Poor decision
As good as JH is, I just don’t see him as a NBA-caliber player at this point.
I’m glad to see he is not obtaining an agent, so this may not be a done deal, depending on how he tests at the camps.
I may work with the Waves, but I'm still a Bruin!
Truth
I’m surprised by this move Jrue has made considering the fact he had had a frustrating 1st season coming off a remarkable HS basketball career as an exceptional and one-of-a-kind guard with skills of different positions wrapped up into 1. Given the fact that he has not truly shown his talent or proven that he is player that will contribute any given I’d advise him to stay at least one more year so that scouts would get an idea of how he is as player and so that he will be able to be seen as a reputable player as most college stars want to be seen. Having seen him play in his HS career I’d say he hasn’t been the recruit that we thought he was going to be yet.
by maxxinrelaxxin21 on Apr 10, 2009 5:57 PM PDT reply actions
Don't follow the Peter Principle
I think many of us need to take a page out of CBH’s playbook when making judgements JH as a person and as a player. JH is a Bruin, and as far as I could see, played hard, stayed within the system, deferred to seniors…all the other positives that have been mentioned. He also by all accounts was a good citizen. In today’s economic climate and the potential of a career threatening injury, I believe it would be foolish to not “test the waters”.
The one year rule is here, whether we like it or not. I think that is a great topic for debate, as is the issue of paying college athletes more than room and board while the ncaa and the schools “earn” millions of dollars off their hard work and skills. But I believe this is a time to support JH in this very important decision regarding his basketball career, not question his character or skills.
I would love to see him wearing UCLA on the front of his jersey next year, but I will respect his decision either way.
by Idaho87 on Apr 10, 2009 6:24 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Long Ago, Nestor Had It Right
And, I finally understood — the NBA drafts potential.
JH has incredible potential.
Whether or not he had a chance to show it here, it is still there.
The one-and-done year didn’t make him a worse player. And, I doubt the pro’s will think that the player they all coveted when he was in high school was over rated.
He’s the same guy. He’s had a year under the nation’s best coach. He still needs more coaching.
Potential is not accomplishment. He’s an 18 year old who will most likely go pro next year. He probably will not hit his stride for a few years. Yes, he could have spent his years with us. But, there is an opportunity cost. Some kids are willing to forgo the money in order to have a real college experience. Some, are not.
I hate the one and done. And, I used to post that JH would not be ready to turn pro this year. But, Nestor, gently convinced me, and many others that the scouts wanted potential and JH has it.
I’ve been prepared to say “good bye” to him since then.
sjh
And further on sjh's point
Think of all the guys who had no college but were drafted as projects. Although they were generally all about 12 feet tall, none were expected to make any contributions the first or second or even third years. Some GM is probably thinking right now that he’ll draft Holiday to keep some other GM from getting him and turning him into the next Michael Jordan.
Once again I say that if there’s a reasonable chance of getting some gazillion dollar salary, even if that would be a mega-gazillion dollar contract if he waited a hear, I can’t blame Holiday for opting for the NBA.
Final thoughts on JH
With all the usual throat-clearing and caveats about how he’s a good kid and it was a pleasure to have him in our program, I make two brief observations based on my personal opinions only —
1) The hype exceeded the performance. There were many disappointments with this year’s team. His performance was one of those.
2) I truly don’t understand why an NBA team would want to use a high to mid first round draft choice on him. While he may have been an outstanding high school player, I didn’t see anything in his time at UCLA that showed me he will contribute to an NBA team in the near future. I understand he has upside skills, and perhaps he will show them in the aftermath of UCLA career before the draft, but I saw many players on teams we played I would draft before him.
I hope we get a useful player to take his scholarship next year and contribute to the team’s success. I hope this player will stay more than one year.
There were "many" disappointments?
Really? Says you. There were few disappointments, and his performance was a small one of those.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
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