UCLA Basketball's Recruiting Trends Under Ben Howland
by nickramz on Jan 18, 2010 3:12 PM PST
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PrintBumped. A thought provoking post well worth the read. GO BRUINS. -N
Wanted to share some observations in response to muircoach's post on the state of UCLA basketball, in particular on his point on recruitment:
Our recruiting is a joke. I don’t care how many 5-star guys we have. For proof, JK was a McDonalds All-American. For the most part, those teams are a joke. They are popularity contests. You want to see good players, go watch CITY basketball games. Why aren’t we any longer getting guys in the inner city/CITY schools, or the tough SF Valley CITY schools, or the Long Beach schools. No more. UCLA used to own the inner city, whether it was private or public schools. Where are the Tyus Edney’s, the Trevor Wilson’s, the Jordan Farmar’s, the David Greenwoods, the Aaron Afflalo’s. I could go on! We used to own L.A. Don’t tell me the talent isn’t there. It is. We just don’t go after them, or we don’t value them, or they don’t value us because we don’t show the interest. Instead, we are going after the O.C. guys, the pretty boys from the pretty programs. USC is getting the inner city guys. The "tougher than crap" inner city guys who have an edge and won’t back down from anybody. They represent Los Angeles. Instead, all of those guys (Larry Drew for example) are going somewhere else where their style of play is appreciated.
We've definitely had most of our success recruiting from the inner city/city schools, valley schools, long beach, and I'll even say that our San Bernardino/Riverside county schools have treated us well. I'm going to classify City as public Inner City / LA City + Long Beach schools. Valley are again public schools in the San Fernando Valley. All other definitions are public schools unless otherwise stated.
One interesting note is that Ben has copied the same 4-year pattern. 2004 he pulled in 5 players. In 2008, he did the same. 2005 he brought in another 5, and in 2009 he did the same. Three players in 2006, the same so far for 2010. Obviously, the challenges of maintaining a program are very different now, and it will be interesting to see how CBH adapts. Let's take a look back after the jump.
2004
Jordan Farmar - Taft High School - Valley
Arron Afflalo - Centennial High School - City
Josh Shipp - Fairfax Senior High School - City
Lorenzo Mata-Real - South Gate Senior High School - City
DeAndre Robinson - Martin Luther King Jr High School - Riverside
2005
Darren Collison - Etiwanda High School - San Bernardino
Ryan Wright - Loyola Catholic SS - Out of country - Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Alfred Aboya - Tilton School - Out of state - Private school in NH
Luc Richard Mbah a Moute - Monteverde Academy - Out of state - Private school in FL
Mike Roll - Aliso Niguel High School - Orange County
2006
Russell Westbrook - Leuzinger High School - City
James Keefe - Santa Margarita Catholic High School - Orange County
Nikola Dragovic - Out of country - Serbia
2007
Kevin Love - Lake Oswego High School - Out of state - OR
Chace Stanback - Fairfax Senior High School - City
2008
Jrue Holiday -Campbell High School - Private school in Los Angeles
Malcolm Lee - John W. North High School - Riverside
Drew Gordon - Archbishop Mitty High School - San Jose
Jerime Anderson - Canyon High School - Orange County
J'mison Morgan - South Oak Cliff High School - Out of state - TX
2009
Tyler Honeycutt- Sylmar Senior High School - Valley
Reeves Nelson - Modesto Christian - Private school in Central Valley
Brendan Lane - Rocklin High School - Central Valley
Mike Moser - Grant High School - Out of state - OR
Anthony Stover - Windward School - Private school in Los Angeles
2010
Josh Smith - Kentwood High School - Out of state - WA
Tyler Lamb - Mater Dei High School - Orange County
Lazeric Jones - JUCO - Out of state - IL
The jury is still out on our latest class, but I think the trend is pretty obvious… our favorite Ben Ball Warriors have predominantly come from the City, Valley, or out of state. Our out of country recruits haven’t fared so well (note: PAA and LRMAM went to school here first). Our Orange county Recruits are no more than role players. Kind of confirms what a lot of scouts have been saying really - soft OC players etc.
In fact, looking at it again, our toughest players and leaders came from the same places. Look at LMR… he wasn’t the most talented big on the offensive end, but no one questions his toughness and effort, particularly on D. And you probably won’t find more tenacious defenders and competitors than AA and RW, who both came from inner city schools. And so far, seeing TH, it looks like the Valley is still giving us talent. Orange County has been nothing but repeated duds. I'm hoping that Tyler Lamb is the real deal though and breaks this trend.
So breaking it all down:
- Mike Roll, James Keefe, Jerime Anderson are all recruited from Orange County. Yeah... And just to take a look at other potential OC recruits we've looked at recently, the Wear twins at UNC, haven't been particularly impressive either. Granted, they're just freshman playing on a team with a lot of talent, so it will be interesting to see if this Orange County problem isn't just confined to us...
- How much international scouting does CBH actually do? That's an interesting question, because we have players that didn't play ball in the US - Ryan Wright and Dragovic. Wright transferred (I forgot why), and I haven't seen if he's improved or what not at Oklahoma. Dragovic... 'nuff said. To tie into the point on vetting these players, if it was possible to miss on Drew Gordon's attitude problems while he was in CA, just how much do we know about these international players? Was the recruitment of Dragovic because "someone said he was good" or did we actually investigate him deeply? My bet is on the former... and to me, that's playing with fire.
- Our out of state recruits have treated us quite well overall. PAA, LRMAM, KL obviously. It's too early to tell with JMM and MM. However, given that other top teams in the nation do fine with recruits not from CA, we need to create more of an out-of-state presence.
- Getting Josh Smith is hopefully a sign that we'll continue to pull great talent from the Pacific Northwest... we've obviously done quite well with KLove. Some great players in recent years have been from up there, such as Spencer Hawes and Abdul Gaddy.
I saved this last point (#5) for itself. This is an important one to look at. All of our current players (other than Roll) were from the 2006-2009 recruitment classes. Looking at our in-state players, I noticed this: only THREE players are from the public inner city/city school/valley/long beach types of players: they are Russel Westbrook, Chance Stanback, and Tyler Honeycutt. We all know what RW has done. We all see that TH has immense promise and talent. The other is Chace Stanback.
Out of curiosity, I took a look at Chace Stanback's game log and was saddened to see that he's gotten tremendously better at UNLV. Granted, that's against UNLV's competition - but then again, they've arguably had a tougher OOC schedule, and the PAC-10 stinks too. Also looking at the log, he's steadily improved his play time from around 20 minutes per game to now where he's had 3 consecutive 30+ minute games. He's in the starting rotation, and he's the team's leading rebounder. Add on the fact that his playtime and overall game seems to be improving, his current line of 9.4 ppg and 5.6rpg is sure to improve as the season goes on. And just to be more of a dagger, he can actually hit free throws.
Why do I bring that up? Because he's one of those players from the Fairfax pipeline we've had, but he has unfortunately left the team when he would certainly have been a big asset for us. Maybe someone can remind me of the circumstances around it, but it is disappointing to see him succeed elsewhere knowing what we need right now.
Other players to look at that we recruited but didn't get or didn't pursue over the last few years: James Harden of Artesia HS (City). We know what he did.
Also there was Larry Drew II. After being a backup point guard (and even as a backup to the national champion, he was given 9.6 mpg, far more than our freshman lately get) - and despite some youth problems, he's shooting 47% on the season while average 8.4ppg and 6.4apg. Remember where he was from? Taft High School, the same as Jordan Farmar... another Valley product.
Another player we lost from our own backyard, another UNC player... Deon Thompson of Torrance High School (put that under the City or Long Beach category) at 14.9 ppg and 7rpg in his senior season. And for another kick in the groin, we have Alex Stepheson, who went to UNC then transferred to USC due to his ailing father - 10.2 ppg and 7.9 rpg. He was from Harvard-Westlake, a private school on the border of LA city and the Valley. And just to add more pain to this entire situation, these guys were all in the 06 class... the one where we brought in Keefe (who at least tries) and Dragovic *gag*
I know that academic standards make it hard to get a lot of the people named, but it is interesting to see what has happened, and it's pretty interesting the trend in what has and hasn't provided us the talent we want
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Great summary, Nick
Some more questions from this…
Who saw guys like AA, LMR, JF, RW and pegged them? We have talked about the loss of Keating from our staff.
Who was our link to those city schools that appears to a large degree to have been lost?
You can imagine, on the surface, the connection between what seem to be tough gritty city/valley kids and the CBH style of basketball, as contrasted to what looks to be a more finessed style that seems more typical of the OC.
I wonder if we would find his trend in football. Bret Johnson (and Marijuanavich) was from Orange County.
Note DG being our one recruit from the Bay Area. Northern CA, like North Campus, is weak. Ok, gratuitous cheap shot in. Done.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
Time out there brother
NorCal may not be a hot bed of recruiting for elite D1 programs each year, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call the region weak. It has produced some quality players in previous years. Leon Powe (Cal), DeMarcus Nelson (Duke), and Quentin Thomas (UNC) were all solid players from good high school programs. The Oakland schools, in particular, produce damn good players every year. I wouldn’t call anyone coming out of Oakland weak.
by Kerckhoff405 on Jan 18, 2010 9:45 PM PST up reply actions
I know
That was just a So Cal and South Campus blast at anything north. Just smarting off.
You make good points, and it’s interesting that we have only brought in one recruit from the area in 7 years. I wonder if we have anyone scouting the Bay Area, or are we conceding it to Cal and Stanford?
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
Rivals
Used to put the recruits coaching contact but I think that dissappeared when they redid the website. If anyone else knows WJERE else this can be found let me know
by nickramz on Jan 18, 2010 10:23 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
OC Basketball isn't all finesse
I put up a post a while back about the duo from Huntington Beach, Avery Johnson and Anthony Brown. These guys play for Jim Harris, one of the most respected coaches in the state (He let Gary McKnight Coach alongside him), and all he preaches is defense. Their high school has held two of their last 4 opponents to less than 30% shooting, and their turnover margin last night was 23+. While Howland already lost a semi-committed Anthony Brown, Avery is, and I’m repeating myself, a prototypical Howland player.
I reccomend that someone look into extending more of a push for at least one of these guys.
Formerly ucla13_usc9
by 03rdn9 on Jan 19, 2010 7:16 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
This was a great post!
You broke it down perfectly. One thing I failed to mention in my post is that the San Bernadino area is just like the inner city now in regards to high school boys basketball talent. It is rich in talent, and those kids aren’t necessarily the most spoiled or “well to do” kids. Many of the families (not all, I don’t want people mad at me) are working families who have moved to the area for less expensive housing. So those kids in the San Bernadino and surrounding areas are tougher than nails and might as well be as driven and hungry as inner city and SF Valley city kids. That being said, we have Lee, who I think is progressing quite well. I know he has his rough moments, and if people would get out of his head and tell him he is an NBA player, that would help. However, he is progressing fine, and I never figured him to be a real legit threat until his junior year anyways. He should have gotten more time last year, and he’d be much better than he is now. To bring up another name from last year of guys we missed: Kawhi Leonard from King HS in the IE was an absolute beast last year. I saw many games last season, and when I saw him play I told people in the gym that he was better than JK and JD last year!! Now, once again I don’t know if he would have even qualified. I am only making the point that guys like Leonard (who went to San Diego State, are the type of guys we need to turn it around.
It wasn’t just Leonard either…..my personal favorite. Just last year we missed out on Jordan Hamilton from Dominquez. He was a 5-star and signed with Texas. Last I checked, Dominquez is an inner city school. What about Michael Snaer. Another 5-star recruit, chose Florida State instead of us. From Rancho Verde HS……..in Moreno Valley. Tougher than nails kids! Soloman Hill was a big-time recruit, out of our very own Fairfax HS. We get to watch him the next four years at Arizona. This year, did we even give Jordin Mayes from Westchester a sniff? He is an ultra competetive, high motor guard on the best team in Los Angeles by a longshot. Go to a good CITY game sometime. It is insane how much fun these guys are to watch play. I could list players all day.
Lorenzo Mata was incredible. He wasn’t very talented. However, his heart was 5-star. His love for UCLA was 5-star! His passion was 5-star. His motor was 5-star. In other words, he was a 5-star player in every sense of the word, who developed throughout his time at UCLA. We need guys like Leonard and Mata to match up with the Honeycutt’s (super talented, will be a stud) of the world.
I am not saying we should ONLY recruit these guys, but it has to be our main focus in recruiting. We have some of the best talent in the nation every year, even in a down year. Every coach will tell you that you have to nail down your own backyard. For the most part, we are doing that. I just think CBH needs to remember that Los Angeles and the surrounding great communities (SF Valley, Inland Empire, Long Beach, etc) are in his backyard too……..and not only Orange County and Central Cal. While some good players come out of those areas (love RN) our track record is better in those other areas.
Stanback....
was given a push out the door, so to speak. He wasn’t very keen on playing defense. We gave him a little push to open up a spot. I can’t remember who that spot was supposed to go to though
Is CBH a closer?
I remember the coaching staff went after Thompson and Stepheson in 06 and failed on both. They cooled off on Drew and decided on Anderson since he would commit early. The coaching staff is either not evaluating the talent correctly or not doing enough to convince these guys to come. It’s ridiculous that usc is playing better than UCLA.
Early Exits are Wasted Scholarships
What shocks me about the list is how many of the players left UCLA early, either to the NBA or by transferring. Nine of the 20 scholarship players since 2004 did not complete their eligibility. Since ‘06, five of the 10 scholarship players are no longer on the team. Even with the expected exodus to the NBA by many players, that’s still a surprising total.
I’m sure the reasons are plentiful but it seems a bit perplexing that several players either left early for the NBA draft even though they were locks for the lottery or left the program all together. It seems to me that CBH is not doing a good job of bringing in the right type of players to fit his program and playing style.
richramus
Respectfully Disagree on Leaving Early
With the exception of JH, I can’t fault a kid for leaving early to make millions and play in the NBA. Everyone knew Kevin Love was one and done. I would take the next Kevin Love in a heartbeat. He was respectful and worked hard. I would not take an OJ Mayo, came to $C to be in a "pro city.
That said, if they are bad attitudes, poor students, or have an ethical questionable past, I would not take them regardless.
It's not about leaving early
It’s about what you do when you’re here. It’s about the attitude and the fight that you bring to the table. What I wouldn’t give to have another player with the heart, determination, and passion of an Arron Afflalo, or another fiery motivator/leader like Jordan Farmar. If we need to recruit the city exclusively to find players like them, then so be it.
Yeah but the Post above was early exits are wasted scholarships
I agree with you completely but I disagree that those who leave early are wasted scholarships. Geez that means AA, JF, KL, LRMM were wasted.
Transfers are a different issue but still not a good measure. Anyone remember Duke’s 1991 Championship team’s Bill McCafferty. The kid was the second leading scorer but came off the bench of that national championship team. He was so frustrated by that he transferred after the season.
He wanted to be a star and he lead a Vanderbilt team to the tourney as the undisputed leader.
Thus don’t throw Stanbach out there unless you think he was good enough to play that year. I feel he was NOT good enough to play on that team and thus left. Yes, he is good enough to play on this team but I am not sure you can say to him then, hey a lot of people are going to leave in 09-10 season so you will play, hang around.
I actually agree with you
I think it’s a very poor choice of words to say that it is a waste of a scholarship. That scholarship opens back up due to the departure. All it means is that that player has less of a chance to make an impact here if they leave early, which will affect our perception of whether a scholarship was “wasted” or not. AA and JF sure as hell made an impact here, both in tangible and intangible terms, and they were both early entries. Those scholarships were not a “waste”.
PS Watching the Magic @ Lakers
Speaking of Farmar, here’s the sequence of events he started in the middle of the fourth quarter:
9:33 71-68 Farmar made a 26 foot 3 pointer
8:53 73-68 Farmar made a 21 foot jumper
8:37 75-68 Farmar drove to the hoop for a layup
8:18 75-68 Farmar stole the ball from (Jameer) Nelson
8:17 76-68 Farmar hit free throw (1 of 2)
8:17 77-68 Farmar hit free throw (2 of 2)
Farmar and his personal 9-0 run provided the final measure of separation in crunch time. That’s the leadership, fire, and intensity that our team desperately needs more of.
Wasted is a poor choice of words
My point I am trying to make is that Howland is whiffing on a lot of scholarships, especially when it comes to the players who transfer. The early exits, for whatever reason, are leaving a gaping hole in the roster. The classes of 2006 and 2007 are a prime example with four of the seven scholarship players no longer on the roster.
For every player who has left early for NBA riches, there’s seemingly been another who has left disgruntled. You can’t do much about the first category; the players in the second category are what I would call “wasted opportunities.”
richramus
Still does not add up
You cite 2006 and 2007. Let’s go one by one.
2006
Russell Westbrook – . Did a great job, Ben Ball player.
James Keefe – Still here.
Nikola Dragovic – Still here.
2007
Kevin Love -. See what I wrote above. You would really not take Kevin again knowing he was one and done?
Chace Stanback – See above. He would play now but do you think he belonged in the rotation on the 2007 team?
adding up clearly not working
assuming 4 of 7 means 4 of 7, not 2 of 5, I’m going to charitably assume that the classes of 2006 and 2007 are those that were recruited in 06 and 07 to be part of the class of 2007 and 2008.
In which case, the argument is that KL, CS, DG and JH being no longer with us, leaving us ML, JA and JMM, is a waste.
I think JH and DG were worse than simple wastes, they were toxic waste. Their positive impact on UCLA hoops was negligible, and the negative repercussions are being felt this year. KL did everything that we could have asked him to do and added elite talent to our team; not a waste, certainly; not as impactful on our program as a AA or LRMAM; but it was great to have him for a year given his attitude and contribution. Not sure what to make of the CS situation; flipping him to get an extra scholarship for the “Cover Boys” doesn’t look great in retrospect. He didn’t belong in the rotation on the 2007 team, so wasn’t wasting a scholarship in that sense, but not keeping him on was probably a mismanagement of scholarship resources.
But in general, I agree with everyone here who is attacking the broad premise that “Early Exits are Wasted Scholarships”. Not that many championship-caliber players want to stay 4 years, unless they are unusual cases like DC or Tyler Hansborough, or are later developing players who become high quality juniors and seniors after not showing that much promise earlier.
by britishbruin on Jan 19, 2010 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
"toxic waste"
bb … I think that’s screaming for a fanpost … it’s something that is becoming more and more relevant.
I have been thinking about it through today. I have been down on ML and even on JMM. But don’t feel like giving up on them (also don’t want to give up on JA either).
But what Holiday and Gordon did … it’s something we need to talk more clearly about. I have expressed my opinion on Holiday for a while. Never cared for him. The more day passes .. the more it become clears something wasn’t right. It was never a right fit.
Is it possible...
Is it possible that some of our best recruits were also the most evaluated? Given that Howland doesn’t like recruiting trips and scouting trips to delve too much into his game prep time, local talent is more likely to be scouted and assessed. The more frequently you would see a recruit, the better feel for the talent, competitiveness, personality and consistency you’ll find. the At the same time, the coaching staff would also be more familiar with their recruits’ competition, so they’d also recognize the kind of level of talent they’re up against. I’m not saying the busts we’ve had were poorly evaluated, just possibly not as thoroughly evaluated as our best recruits given the advantages of being local.
that would be a sensible hypothesis to test
but given that the main premise here – that OC players suck – doesn’t fit your argument makes it a difficult argument to make.
by britishbruin on Jan 19, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Recruiting
while somewhat of a crap shoot, recruiting should begin earlier as far as identifying “potential” and watching it from eigth grade. Not offering but following and seeing them play once in awhile through 10th grade. Now is time to get serious and let them aware of said interest. For true stars who fit your style offer after junior season and see if you can get an early signee. too many times coaches do not see enough of a prospect and rely on others but remember it is your job they impact. I have been at club level events and seen various coaches just relaxing and watching youngsters run up and down. You can be sure they are filling out interest cards on these kids so that they can check in on them when they get to high school and play at higher club levels. You can’t look just to have enough bodies-they have to be able to produce when given the opportunity.
for next year, I have seen signee Tyler Lamb play for over 5 years and he has improved every year. The other two, I have not seen but Josh Smith seems to have the credentials according to Scouts.com. We shall see>
It's funny
Because watching your breakdown is actually 100% right on with how Howland recruits.
Formerly ucla13_usc9
by 03rdn9 on Jan 19, 2010 7:20 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
great post nick
I agree, historically, our OCounty players are good role minute types. Very finesse. Even Chase Budinger, for all his current success in the NBA , is a prime example. Who can forget him getting out of the way of KL on the baseline when KL came in to dunk?
That where Brendan Lane is "from" subthread
I nuked it because it was getting away from the main discussion. :-)
For now I rather have him on the court than sitting on the bench for Ragovic.
As you said yourself, it is a thought provoking post.
The main discussion is about where CBH is getting his players. Nickramz did a very nice job putting the post together and it seems important to understand accurately where the players are coming from. I would have liked to have seen the replies to my comments but oh well.
by 84 on Jan 19, 2010 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
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