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Maybe It's Not Howland or The Players ... ?

There are elements to the program other than Howland and the players themselves.

Let's put it this way: When Howland built the NAU and Pitt programs he had Jamie Dixon. When he built our program, he had Kerry Keating. Now, he has neither.

We'll leave it at that for now ...

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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This is a topic

That is worth exploring in detail in the coming weeks (I don’t really care about the games at this point).

by Nestor on Jan 4, 2010 10:53 AM PST reply actions  

Wow

You don’t care about the possible event of a turnaround? While I get the fact that it’s improbable, there’s the idea that your boy Tyler can find his stroke or Nick gets hurt, or we get some massive Westbrook type slam against Cal again that just sets the team ablaze? There is plenty that can happen in the remained of this season

Formerly ucla13_usc9

by Josh Schlichter on Jan 4, 2010 7:24 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

One play has never turned around a season

(Unless of course it wins a tourney game — but that doesn’t count.)

If this team has a massive Westbrook-type slam, the bench will get all excited and maybe pull out a win. Then the next game they will come out with their heads up their hoohas and play accordingly — par for the course.

by bluebland on Jan 5, 2010 12:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Don't forget Ernie Ziegler either

While he wasn’t the recruiting ace that Keating was, he was a very good recruiter and more importantly, heavily leaned upon as the scout of the staff.

Formerly ryebreadraz

by Ryan Rosenblatt on Jan 4, 2010 10:57 AM PST reply actions  

Our current assistants

I have always liked Donnie Doniels. He was brought in because of his shared roots with Howland re. Rick Majerus and his ability to develop big guys. I think his track record at UCLA has been good (I have been happy with it).

What about Duncan and Garson? What do these guys bring to the table?

by Nestor on Jan 4, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Stats

And plenty of recruiting. They are more active than most PAC 10 coaches, especially at the extravaganza highlights and local tourneys

Formerly ucla13_usc9

by Josh Schlichter on Jan 4, 2010 7:26 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Your comment

Offered me nothing. Sorry.

by Nestor on Jan 5, 2010 5:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Being active ...

means nothing.

Showing up at a bunch of games means nothing.

Knowing how to evaluate talent and how to form close relationships with players is the key.

Didn’t John Wooden say something about activity?

by Achilles on Jan 5, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Scott Garson

I’ve heard unsubstantiated rumors about him, but there is no question that he has become the most vocal and “involved” assistant on the staff during games, while Daniels has become much quieter. So I wonder if it’s true that there is dissension on the staff and resentment that the youngest guy has the biggest “teaching” role.

As for Duncan, it seems he was brought in to recruit, and we’ve certainly done OK with his recruiting area (Moser, Josh Smith) but it doesn’t look too spectacular does it.

by bluebland on Jan 4, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Duncan

he also worked on Oregon’s staff.

by lil eg not cs on Jan 4, 2010 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Or maybe it's the housing bubble?

Or the economy? Global warming? Seriously, how many excuses can we think of of why we are 6-8 with really no clarity on the direction of this program?

Look, I understand that the situation with our program right now is multifactorial in origin. We can keep pointing our fingers at the Holidays, the Gordons, the Dragovics, the Andersons, the one and done rule, the student tickets exchanges, the out dated gyms, the assistant coaches, etc etc etc, but at the end of the day, it really all comes down to one person that is accountable, right?

In depth analysis of the cause for our demise is fine, but I just hope we don’t lose sight of that one simple fact.

"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09

by Blue Me on Jan 4, 2010 11:42 AM PST reply actions  

This is a pretty important topic Blue

And I’d really like to learn more about out assistant coaches. I wouldn’t be so dismissive of it.

by Nestor on Jan 4, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Not trying to dismiss it

but also hoping no one gets a false sense of security by hanging their hats on it either.

"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09

by Blue Me on Jan 4, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Yep

This has nothing to do with getting a false sense of security. I’d like to know everything about the program before even contemplating any kind of change the topic. I hope it’s clear that we will now shy away from holding Howland accountable. That said, I’d like to know more about this because I have heard a lot of murmurs on this topic in recent years (especially since Keating’s departure) but nothing concrete yet.

by Nestor on Jan 4, 2010 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I remember there being a minor stir when he was hired away

I don’t think this is necessarily a new topic but rather an underreported and undiscussed topic. Unfortunately, I personally have little to add to the discussion outside of what I’ve heard from people who are supposedly in the know.

by Tydides on Jan 4, 2010 1:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Strength and conditioning

I think CRN and Mike Linn have done a great job turning our formerly undersized team into a formidable unit.

I don’t think Wes Long and Laef Morris are doing the same for our basketball team. After CBS switched coverage to Gonzaga-Illinois, I noticed that Gonzaga is bigger, stronger, and faster than our team. Granted, Gonzaga has been good for a while, but they are a WCC team for crying out loud. They aren’t pulling in top flight talent, but they are developing what they have.

I wonder why our team hasn’t made any physical improvement. We look slow and unexplosive.

by AllHailMightyBruins on Jan 4, 2010 11:56 AM PST reply actions  

I mentioned this over in a comment

under the “losing basketball season never acceptable at UCLA” story, and thought it was very interesting that Kerry Keating has got a very up to date personal website, and CBH has got nothing. Maybe he could learn something from his younger former assistant?
http://www.kerrykeating.com/main.html

I also mentioned that guys like Tom Izzo, who we all respect around here, and has been in basketball a long time, has got a very neat looking website as well.
http://www.coachizzo.com/

William Doolittle at your service, a.k.a. will do.

by Ollie on Jan 4, 2010 1:50 PM PST reply actions  

Interesting stat on his site

“Every four year player recruited by Tom Izzo has appeared in at least one Final Four”

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Jan 4, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

well

every four year player recruited by Ben Howland has appeared in… at least 2 Final Fours?
LMR, JS, DC, MR, ND, PAA…

by britishbruin on Jan 4, 2010 3:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Exactly

so, isn’t he in Izzo’s league, at least in that respect?

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Jan 5, 2010 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Its the coach...and lack of talent

Lets not kids ourselves…Our talent is just not good. Which makes our coach very mediocre. Talents makes things easier. When you have AA, PAA, JS, LRAMM, DC, RW, and others it makes you look good. Let’s be realists about this. Our 6-8 record is a reflection of our talent and coaching ability.

BruinFloyd 2000

by bruinfloyd on Jan 4, 2010 7:24 PM PST reply actions  

Somewhat off-topic

When and if Howland decides to hang it up and ride off into the sunset, I hope we’d be able to snag Dixon from wherever he is coaching. He’s a solid coach, raised on CBH, a Southern California guy, and has a proven track record of being able to maintain a program at a solid level.

by Bellerophon on Jan 4, 2010 8:04 PM PST reply actions  

Man ...

I don’t know the guy, but based on his public persona I seriously doubt he’s contemplating retirement.

On the other hand, I am one of the few who feel he’d make an excellent NBA coach and those guys make a fortune (not to mention the chartered flights and the four star hotels).

I doubt Ben Howland is going to the NBA — but I think he’s closer to the pros than he is to riding off into the sunset.

by Achilles on Jan 5, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Interesting

I’d love to hear why you think he’d make an excellent NBA coach, considering his lack of patience and deference to prima donnas…

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Jan 5, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I gotta agree with that

Trying to imagine CBH managing NBA size egos…I think that combination would last all of one week.

by Tydides on Jan 5, 2010 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

For one thing ...

it’s a gross overstatement to suggest that NBA players are by definition “prima donnas.”

I mean, do you consider even one Bruin currently in the NBA a “prima donna?”

Do you consider even one player on the Lakers right now a "prima donna?’

So, I think it’s sort of besides the point if the issue is dealing with “prima donnas.” No coach likes to deal with “prima donnas.”

But you do have to deal with great players who are ultra competitive to the point of being borderline obsessives. That’s where I’d stick a guy like Kobe Bryant. He doesn’t require special treatment — he just has ridiculously high standards and is unforgiving of those who don’t compete at his level.

But, why do I think Howland would make a great NBA coach?

In no particular order:

1 – I don’t think he loves recruiting, not like a Calipari or a Williams. I perceive him as someone who recruits because he must — but he’d rather just do the coaching.

2 – Speaking of the coaching, I perceive him as obsessive about preparation. That’s the number one quality an NBA coach has to have — the ability to prepare. Howland is simply great at breaking down film, of preparing practices, of noticing the little details that make a team win. In the NBA, instead of having to spend half your time looking at tape of high school players, you spend your time looking at film of opponents and yourself. I don’t think anything would be more suited to Howland than a situation where preparation was paramount.

3 – In the NBA, you don’t have to worry about your players liking you and all that because you’re worried about them going pro. It doesn’t work that way. You can work them hard and as long as their checks clear, they have to take it.

4 – Howland is a great defensive coach. That plays well in the NBA. He might need an OC assistant coach on his bench, but then again, the NBA lets you have as many assistant coaches as you want.

5 – Howland is also a good game coach. That’s a plus in the NBA.

Would he have to make adjustments? Of course. Playing 82 games with less time to practice between games necessitates changes in approach. But I don’t think these changes are insurmountable — they would just require planning.

The disconnect for me and those who think Howland could not coach in the NBA is at the point where people start to suggest that NBA players are uncoachable prima donnas. This is an unwinnable argument both ways. If you dislike the NBA and NBA players, I won’t be able to convince you that NBA players aren’t by and large uncoachable prima donnas. And you won’t be able to convince me that they are.

(For the record — obviously there are prima donnas in the NBA. There are prima donnas in college basketball, too. The league isn’t void of difficult personalities, there just aren’t as many as some suggest.)

To me, the biggest challenge Howland would face is working with a GM who basically puts the team together. Using the Lakers just as an example, Howland’s greatest challenge would be working with Mitch Kupchak and the owners who pick the players not dealing with Kope and the team. The biggest loss of control is in putting the roster together.

Look, NBA players want to do two things: Make lots of money and win lots of games. If Howland’s coaching won games, they’d buy into anything he’d want to do. Mostly I think Howland is a superior preparer, practice coach and game coach and that’s what it takes to win in the pros. I think he’s an ambivalent recruiter and stripped of that responsibility he’d do very well.

All that said (and remember, you asked) I’d bet anything he isn’t going to the pros.

by Achilles on Jan 5, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Well there is a precedent for a CBH type hanging around in the NBA

But he is also known for being unique in that regard. His name is Jerry Sloan.

by Tydides on Jan 5, 2010 4:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Jrue went pro

perhaps in his mind to ‘escape’ CBH. JH is now playing with (OK, sitting at the end of the bench and watching) Allen Iverson. Can you imagine Howland trying to get any respect from AI?

“Practice, man, we talking about practice…”

by KSBruin on Jan 5, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel ...

AI is one of the most misunderstood players in NBA history.

Too much to go into, but I’ll say this:

No one — I mean no one — ever worked harder in games than Allen Iverson. He almost led the 76ers to a title single handedly. He was barely 6 feet tall and a buck sixty and he took a tremendous beating night in and night out. For anyone to question his effort was simply laughable.

Yes, he was apparently casual about practice at times. But that’s because he had nothing left for practice. And it was unfathomable to him that someone would call him out for being late to practice (and imply he wasn’t trying). I’m not condoning AI missing practice. I’ll be clear: he was wrong. But the subsequent assumption that he was a lazy player or a player who didn’t work hard was and is ludicrous.

And AI has great respect for Larry Brown — who was the Sixers coach at the time of the practice incident.

by Achilles on Jan 5, 2010 2:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Howland turns 53 in May

I don’t think he will decide to hang up in the next 20 yrs or so. Then again, if the team keeps playing like this, he may not want to coach beyond this month.

by EdO'B3017 on Jan 4, 2010 9:40 PM PST reply actions  

He said

“I’ll stay as long as you want me here”

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Jan 5, 2010 1:04 PM PST up reply actions  

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