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Coach's 88 Apples vs. Auriemma's 88 Oranges
by LVBruin on Dec 20, 2010 11:04 AM PST
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Photo Credit: AP
So here's a little statistical food for thought relevant to the UCLA men vs. UConn women debate.
Yesterday, in response to kevb's Fanpost, both uclaluv and I argued that UConn's record-tying run has a lot to do with the distinct lack of parity in the women's game. UConn has managed to blow through 88 straight opponents in part because the drop off in talent from top tier teams (like UConn) to the majority of their opponents is so great. Rather than simply make the assertion without any evidence to back up this claim, I thought I'd try to find some statistical back up.
The best approach I could think of for measuring top tier teams and their middling counterparts was to look at the first and second round performances of #1 seeds in both the men's and women's NCAA tournaments. I was able to gather data from all but one NCAA tourney since the women went to a 64 teams back in 1994.
First the numbers for second round matchups (between #1 seeds and either 8 or 9 seeds):
| Wins | Losses | Average Margin | 20+ Point Wins | 30+ Point Wins | |
| Men | 56 | 8 | 11.42 | 13 | 5 |
| Women | 60 | 3 | 19.09 | 29 | 11 |
And now the really outrageous numbers. Here are the stats for games between #1 and #16 seeds:
| Wins | Losses | Average Margin | 30+ Point Wins | 50+ Point Wins | |
| Men | 64 | 0 | 27.47 | 25 | 2 |
| Women | 63 | 1 | 39.56 | 48 | 17 |
Even with the shocking upset loss on the books (Harvard over Stanford in the 1998 women's tourney) the numbers for women's #1s surpass those for men's #1s by a wide margin. My favorite number here is the 17 wins of 50 points or more by women's #1s. To give you an idea of how relatively bad a team has to be to lose by 50 in a 40 minute game, the two 50+ point losses on the men's side came from a 2009 Cattanooga team that went 11-9 in the Southern Conference and a 1998 Prairie View team that went 6-10 in the SWAC.
Based on these numbers, I'd say that top flight women's teams get to cakewalk more often than do top flight men's squads.
For the record, I think that Ariemma's 88 straight is a awesome accomplishment but I also think that putting it on par with Coach's record is misguided.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Who cares?
Congratulations to U Conn — 88 straight against any level of opposition is a feat to celebrate.
We should all appreciate that any team can have a bad game and lose to a team no matter how overmatched that team would seem to be.
The UConn streak was done by an apparently clean program with good kids.
It does nothing to diminish Coach’s achievements. In fact, to reach 88 UConn had to show some of the qualities that Coach built into his pyramid.
I’m not threatened by their streak. I embrace it.
sjh
+1
winning 88 straight in anything, basketball, egg toss, hide and go seek, i don’t care, its a streak worth noting. Not to say LV doesnt but i feel some want to put an asterisk next to this streak simply because its womens basketball.
by uclabruin34 on Dec 20, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
*not to say
LV doesnt respect the streak, but i feel some want to put an asterisk next to this streak simply because its womens basketball.
by uclabruin34 on Dec 20, 2010 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
I totally respect the streak
I love to see any sport being played at its highest level, and that is what UConn is doing in the sport of women’s college basketball. All I was trying to say is that women’s and men’s college basketball are very very different sports and comparing success within the one to success within the other is misguided.
I am with you
Apples and oranges. Both fruits, but different.
I just put it on the list of amazing streaks, in no particular order: 88 straight victories by UCLA men, 88 (and counting) straight victories by UConn women, undefeated season for Dolphins, 321 starts for Favre, etc…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
This
They have the longest winning in Women’s NCAAB history, and that’s an amazing accomplishment. But treating the 88th and (likely) 89th wins as landmarks implies that they’ve surpassed UCLA’s mark (and on the flip side, it implies that if they hadn’t reached the 88th win, it would be inferior). The two teams are in different leagues. Neither streak is better or worse, they’re just different.
by SuperBruinMan on Dec 20, 2010 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah good for them
The problem is the media comparing it against UCLA Men’s Basketball teams coached by John Wooden.
Records in one sport should never be compared to records in another. The game of basketball is the same but there are differences in gender, level, professional, you name it.
I’m not saying that their achievement is better or worse but if a youth boy’s basketball team wins that many in a row, no one is going to care. If Wilt Chamberlain’s record of 100 points per game is beaten by a college player, do you think there will be this much hype comparing Wilt with whomever or do you think that people will say “It was much harder to do it in the NBA?”
Bottom-line, ladies good for you but our records continue to be the greatest achievements given to us by great teams and the “Greatest Coach of the 20th Century” … at least. Tell the media not invite the comparisons and we won’t have to defend our school’s achievements.
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on Dec 20, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
100 points in a college game, which is 8 minutes shorter than an NBA game?
That’s a very impressive accomplishment. Still apples and oranges in comparing with Wilt though.
Yeah
You’re right. I was thinking about it afterward but thought they would get my drift.
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on Dec 20, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
Agree with both.
Congratulations are well deserved and there isn’t parity. My concern with the parity isn’t about us (the Bruins record) so much, but that I’d love to see more parity in the women’s game. I’d love to see more girls going into bball. I teach high school in downtown L.A. with very mixed demographics. Most of the girls who want to play sports have had no opportunity to do so. There are exceptions, I have a couple of students who play on club teams and Chinatown seems to offer some good programs for the kids there. Most of our girls basketball team members(we’re not a sports school) had never played organized bball before they got to high school and some had barely played bball at all. One of the nice things about this win is that more young girls might become interested…it’s good exposure for the women’s game. However, without more programs in place and without those programs being known about in communities, I’m afraid there won’t be enough talented bball players to create more parity. I played bball in high school and loved it more than anything. Sports for women not only teach the great things of team work and leadership and all of the benefits that men get. But sports also empowers young girls to be more confident about themselves and to value themselves more (especially when it comes to the requests/demands of boys!). I know one of my students today, is very happy. Maya Moore is her favorite athlete and most of the women she looks up to are basket ball players.
“It does nothing to diminish Coach’s achievements. In fact, to reach 88 UConn had to show some of the qualities that Coach built into his pyramid.” With this I agree. But I also appreciate LV’s data points, because there are people out there trying to compare the two achievements.
Go Bruins!
What are we comparing, and yeah, who cares?
I get the numeric comparision: 88 v 88. And I get that its a incredible achievment and all credit should be given to UConn, its coach and players. But what I don’t get is what the comparison is supposed to prove. When UConn gets 89 will it become a greater achievement? I doubt many who know the game (and athletics in general) will feel like it is. Not to be a sexist, but there are many differences between womens athletics and mens, not only that which uclaluv mentions (numbers playing and skill levels). So its kindof like asking if having 88 apples is better than having 88 oranges. Numbers are only numbers and records are only compilations of those numbers. Its what’s behind the numbers that count. And in that comparison, as 66 notes, UConn does pretty well. Coach’s achievements span a longer period though and focusing only on the 88 straight may diminish the magnitude of his record over the longer period from ‘65 through ’75. I’m not a great historian, but wasn’t it only the Elvin Hayes loss that made UCLA’s streak ONLY 88 and not upwards of 100+? Anyway, I see UConn’s accomplishments as being extremely significant but because its in womens bb, it should be spoken of in that context.
No...
the Elvin Hayes game was in 1968. The 88-game winning streak was from 1971-1974. And who gave us our last loss before the streak started? None other than… Notre Dame. 7-point loss in South Bend.
I stand corrected.
Having looked up the history though I found that prior to that ND loss (Austin Carr’s team I believe) the Bruins had won 19 straight. So without that stinking 7 point loss, the streak could have been 108 when it was finally snapped again by ND.
If it's the same
then how come they play with balls of different size?
Apples and oranges. Both tasty, both great, but different.
Theirs is a streak that stands on its own. But of course I hope our UCLA Bruin ladies end their streak in the final of the NCAA tournament!
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Uconn Women & record
Congrats to the Uconn women for continuing to set the NCAA Women’s Basketball record for most consecutive wins…..has nothing to do with the UCLA Men’s Basketball 88 consecutive win record….nice try in trying to compare the two. Great for women’s basketball.
The UCLA record is on a different planet.
GO BRUINS!
How 'bout Breaburn vs Gala?
Two different apples.
I mean, we’re talking about the game of basketball, just being played by slightly different athletes in slightly different situations.
I believe the accomplishments stand alone individually. Kinda like Al Scates’ and Wooden’s totals of National Championships. Al’s got way more, but…so? (as in so what)
Good for UConn, good for UCLA.
Hey, Nikki, ya listening to all this? Could make a name (bigger name) for yourself if the NCAA brackets go a certain way, eh?
Still feel bad for the 71-74 Bruin players
Now they won’t be able to do their yearly champagne bottle popping when they know that their record will be safe.
…oh, wait, I forgot, they’re classy, and not a bunch of old pompus douchebags living in the past. (Unlike, for instance…http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/1972.htm)
I don't blame them
they were getting paid peanuts compared to what the players make today…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Separate Recordbooks=Separate Records.
All of the reporting about UConn “tying” UCLA’s record and, if they win tomorrow, “breaking” the record is nonsense.
Even if the UConn ladies win 200 straight, they will not have tied nor broken UCLA’s record.
Each stands on its own, separate merit.
If a women’s college softball player (let’s call her Fiona Fastball) throws 10 non-hitters next season, and the men’s college baseball record is 3 in a season, Fiona has not broken the men’s record.
Another example is the home run record. Quickly, who holds it? Most would say Barry Bonds or (for those who believe that his mark is tainted) Hank Aaron, not Saduhara Oh, who hit 868 in Japan. UConn’s record is like Oh’s.
That having been said, what UConn and Geno A. have done is nothing short of spectacular and certainly deserves the high praise it is deserving. Coach Wooden would be proud of these athletes.
I just do not agree with the semantics (i.e., “UCLA’s record tied” or “UCLA’s record about to be broken”) being used by the MSM to decribe what is happening.
UConn has a pretty long way to go to get to the real record
According to Wikipedia, the Globetrotters had a win streak of 8,829 games.
In my opinion, there are a lot more Washington Generals in the women’s game than in the men’s game. Having said that, an 88 game winning streak is impressive. Anything can happen to break a streak, like a player having a career game, or having Lew Alcindor get his eye scratched just before the big game against Houston (who we later disembowled 103-65 in the tournament.)
To the ladies of UConn – congratulations, but remember you have 8,741 to go before you have any real bragging rights.
by Fox 71 on Dec 20, 2010 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Whole lot of good comments here.
Good for UConn, that’s an incredible streak. I can believe that there’s a large lack of parity, probably comes partly from a sport that hasn’t yet hit the popularity of men’s basketball resulting in a smaller pool of girls interested at the lower levels. That gap is closing.
I don’t think you can equate the two streaks. Different players, different size of ball, different levels of competition. Probably just best to celebrate both streaks for being darn impressive and hope that we see UCLA teams in the future break them.
Sadly, if Auriemma had echoed the sentiments on this page rather than throwing out a bitter-sounding rant about sexism being the reason that it’s not getting “its due acclaim”, I wouldn’t have lost the little bit of respect that I did.
As an alumnus, which record would you prefer to hold?
Men’s or Women’s; And if you add that in Coach’s day, only 32 teams made the NCAA Tournament?
Yes but you are comparing the parity of
Men’s Basketball today to Women’s basketball today. There is a lot more parity in Men’s basketball today than there was in the 1960’s-1970’s.
Also, on a side note, I also thought the 88 game win streak by Coach was important because it was the longest win streak of (major sports/major college sports/all college sports) something like that. Not sure exactly of what….I think this is why it’s being compared so heavily. To win 88 straight games in any sport is a hell of an accomplishment.
A lot more parity?
National Championship Game appearances from 1964-1975
- UCLA – 12 times
- Kentucky – 2 times
- 12 other teams – 1 time
National Championship Game appearances from 1999-2010
- Duke – 3 times
- Florida – 3 times
- UConn – 2 times
- UNC – 2 times
- Michigan State – 2 times
- Kansas – 2 times
- 10 other teams – 1 time
You can also add that in the 5 years after Wooden retired, nobody made it to the Championship game more than once. There are a lot more programs able to make repeated runs now, and the top 5 ranked teams at the moment have all made it to the Final Four in the last decade.
by SuperBruinMan on Dec 20, 2010 9:00 PM PST up reply actions
According to Wiki
The longest winning streak in any professional sports may have been Jahangir Khan’s 555 consecutive wins in squash from 1981 to 1986. Currently, Esther Vergeer is on a 401-match winning streak in wheelchair tennis since January 30, 2003, which included a streak of 250 consecutive sets won.
Ever hear of them?
Tell me she’s not an athlete that deserves mention.
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on Dec 21, 2010 12:59 AM PST up reply actions
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