ESPN's Pat Forde Jabs Ben Howland (& Roy Williams) For Possible Losing Seasons
by Nestor on Feb 23, 2010 12:35 PM PST
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UCLA (2) and North Carolina (3) both stand a fair chance of finishing the year with losing records. Last time that happened in the same season? 1939.
The Bruins at 12-14, with a two-game Arizona road trip still to come? It's enough to make John Wooden smack Ben Howland (4) with a rolled-up program. UCLA has had all of two losing seasons since 1948. [...]
And it's not just that the records are bad -- the teams actually are worse than their records indicate. UCLA is in the middle of the worst Pac-10 in memory and has lost to Cal State Fullerton, Long Beach State and Portland (by 27 points). North Carolina is 3-9 in an underwhelming ACC, and six of those nine defeats are by double digits. Average their rankings from RPI, Ken Pomeroy and Jeff Sagarin, and the Bruins check in at No. 116 and the Tar Heels at No. 71.
Yeah, there have been multiple injuries at both places. And both programs were staggered by early entries into the NBA draft. But are winning records too much to ask when you're UCLA and North Carolina?
I still don't believe the comparison to Carolina works (as explained a while ago these two programs are not in the same boat at this snap shot of time).Carolina is in much better shape in terms of available talent on its roster and the recruits coming in next season. Roy Williams has a proven record of winning national titles and building programs with long term track record of success.
That said Forde nails the main point which is a losing season should never be acceptable at a school like UCLA (and UNC).
GO BRUINS.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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friggin OUCH!!!!
"We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach." -- Baron Davis, remembering his "coach" at UCLA
by inhowlandwetrust on Feb 23, 2010 12:54 PM PST reply actions
Between NC & UCLA
smart money will be on Roy Williams’ TarHeels to lift themselves out of this malaise faster than Howland’s team.
I just hate to ever say this, honest to God but then with Williams’ track records at both Kansas and North Carolina, and then you compare that with Howland’s, plus this season’s woes and inexplicable approaches, you will share my sorrows.
On another post, someone said Tyler Lamb would help. So if you’re hoping that come this fall, Lamb " would ride on a horse with shining armour, sabre rattling and come to our emotional rescue ", well we will see.
Of course it ain’t over until it’s over. We can always hope that Howland somehow awakens to our concern.
Tyler Lamb
As I wrote yesterday I am excited to see him in Bruin uniform. That said I don’t expect him to replace Lee at the 2 (I am guessing Less is going to move back at the 2) and emerge as a major factor in his freshman year. I know better than to get my hopes pinned on another heralded UCLA recruit from the OC. Hopefully Lamb is going to turn out great but too much to expect him to make a difference his first year. I just hope he gets a fair chance to compete from Howland.
Of Courseeeee.........
I merely wrote in jest. We are smarter, way smarter than the coaching staff would tend to think of us. This is not to say I am speaking ill of them. But really, as Pauley partisans, we want nothing but the best for our athletes. Thus far this season……………. well, you can finish my sentence. Tear drops, tear drops keep falling.
right
this down year for UNC is like our down year last year, not our ‘bottom-falling-out’ of this year. Their sophs and juniors next year will do a much better job of leading them back towards the top than our sophs and empty junior class did this year.
by britishbruin on Feb 23, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
I haven't seen the Carolina message boards
But a buddy of mine who is a huge Carolina alum/fan was telling me Williams was getting lit up for recruiting/program management. No they are not calling him to get fired (they are not crazy). I thought that was interesting because it is kind of the same mindset here. We have been very critical of Howland and raising questions, but we are not even CLOSE to contemplating thinking about someone else. We will know more in two years though.
I don't know that I would call last year a down year
I think it was just a bit better than a down year (the kind we would still tolerate) as we still almost won the Pac-10 (in the regular season at least).
OK so it was a down year but it wasn’t the Mendoza line of down years…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
I agree
I was generally happy with last year. However, if we look at how we lost few games they were pretty bad. For example, the essential blowout against Arizona (on the road), meltdowns v. Villanova, and Southern Cal (Pac-10 tourney), crunch time meltdowns against Arizona State and Washington State at Pauely were ugly.
It looks like those games foreshadowed all the problems (defensive lapses and playing mentally soft) that have mushroomed this season.
I think the UNC predicament this year
is somewhat worse than we were last year and somewhat better than us this year. Comparing us last year to them this year – they lost slightly more in talent/experience than we lost, and if DC and PAA had both turned pro early (in their own way), I’m pretty sure we would have been in UNC-esque difficulties last year – but probably better set up for this season and beyond. They will be a lot better next year than we were this year.
In terms of disappointment with last year – we never brought it together like we had in previous years. By the end of the season we had not made the progress in forging a juggernaut like we had in previous seasons. Other years we were more than the sum of our parts, last year it felt like we were less than the sum of our parts. But that’s just personal opinion; it just seemed like a very dissatisfying experience all round.
by britishbruin on Feb 23, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
I think that's a reasonable take
I don’t think we would be as bad as UNC is this year because we would still have had PAA and JS. I think we would have won 18-20 games and get into the dance but we might have been better set up this season with Holiday coming back at point (assuming he would have been content after running the point all season as a frosh). Who knows.
right
just losing DC would bring us down some; but as you have commented previously, PAA leaving was also a possibility, which would have brought us down some more (but given Gordon (presumably) some serious minutes at center). Even if Holiday didn’t come back this year, there would also have been additional minutes for other guards at the 2 last year, presumably ML? Or maybe some minutes with JA at 1 and JH at 2 (a la DC & JF)?
by britishbruin on Feb 23, 2010 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
In fairness to last year
I think our biggest problem in the unexpected losses was none other than Collison. He’s the one who got burned by point-guards he had no trouble stopping before. I don’t know what the problem was.
As for the Nova meltdown, we had no chance against that team no matter what we did. They could burn us off the dribble and burn us from outside — they did both — and outrebound us. No scheme would’ve helped. They blew out Duke in the next round, and Duke was the higher seed.
a source very close to the action
told me that DC wasn’t getting challenged in practice his senior year like he had been his junior year. Apparently going up against RW in practice for two years really pushed him to higher levels than going against JA.
Go figure…
by britishbruin on Feb 23, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
that is very interesting bb
So DC was being matched up against Anderson in practice? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have him go against Holiday? Perhaps Howland did have him go against Holiday few times and I wonder who won that battle.
You can't match him against a guy he's playing with
Since JH had to play the 2 last year, he naturally had to practice there so he could learn how to play alongside Collison. First team practices on the same side most of the time.
That is correct
I wonder though if Howland did mix it up sometime trying out Holiday at the 1. Perhaps he did and what took place in that kind of matchup would be interesting to know. Still think Howland should have tried Holiday out at the 1 at various times last season. Oh well.
it's interesting because one of the biggest things UCLA and UNC have in common
are struggling sophomore point guards: Jerime for us and Larry Drew II for UNC. Both were 5* recruits and both have struggled tremendously replacing a first round draft pick (DC/Lawson). I think a big key to getting back up for both programs is which point guard plays up to his potential – or who they can bring in to replace them.
Has there ever been a player better than Detlef Schrempf?
If Williams had Howland's exact same credentials
(no titles, 3 FFs, followed by a 2nd round exit, followed by this year), I GUARANTEE there would be more than a few people around Carolina calling for him to be fired. I’m not saying that that is what we should be demanding around here, but I think there is a contrast in the mindset between the two programs. They don’t celebrate Final Fours at Chapel Hill. Their expectations are higher. And maybe there is some correlation to the relative higher success that they have had over the last 2 decades.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
Their Almighty God Dean Smith
Won only two championships in 540 years, and they think he’s the best thing ever.
If Howland wins 1 championship
Then he is untouchable in my book (provided he stays out of trouble). Ditto for Neuheisel.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
Re: Neuheisel -- since the BCS is BS anyway...
… is an NC really necessary for CRN to have untocuhable status?
Would a couple of BCS wins count?
A winning Rose Bowl (January) streak?
M
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
Our aspirations should be set towards our FIRST EVER undefeated season.
Rick is capable. We’ll never get one, until we make it our goal.
Perhaps
However Donahue rattled off quite a New Year’s day bowl streak and in the middle of it people still wanted him gone because people felt those teams could have accomplished more.
I actually met Smith in person, about several feet away
That year, Smith and Hazzard locked horns, fought fiercely to sign Scott Williams, MacDonald All American and a 6’9’’ center / forward from Wilson High School here in Hacienda Heights, suburban Los Angeles.
Hazzard lost, needlessly to say.
My colleague’s daughter happened to be in the same graduating class as Williams at that high school. Since the latter, I heard then, was the first blue chipped Californian North Carolina managed to land in years, Smith himself flew west and attended the kid’s graduation alongside with the parents even.
So when we were taking pictures afterwards around the football field, I heard some commotions right behind me. Cameras clicked incessantly. I thought perhaps the principal himself or even the district superintendent had just stepped down from the stage to mingle with the graduation crowds. Now, bear in mind that this was before the age of digital cameras or camcorders. So with all these camera lights flashing in the late afternoon hours, I turned around to see who it could be, just out of curiosity. And there he was, coach Dean Smith with Scott Williams, mobbed by some excited, almost giddish students. Many of them apparently were varsity players of some sort and the cheerleading sqauds.
Smith looked ministerial in person, not particularly tall but stocky. If you thrust a bible in his hand, he really would pass for one of those televangelist, proclaiming God’s love for all mankind.
I do agree too. TarHeels never achieved spectacularly under him, despite their two championships. Had it not been for Bobby Knight’s fanatical, yet brilliant coaching that upset a star studded North Carolina team then , featuring Michael Jordan, James Worthy & Sam Perkins, there would have been a third banner hanging now at Dean Dome.
He is not the best thing ever, next to apple pie, baseball & Chevrolet.
And those two championships, I might add, were incredibly lucky
One of them coming off the famous timeout technical by C-Webb.
Come to think of it
Any discussion of those coaches who can’t “win the big one” must mention the fact that Dean Smith required the most unbelievable luck possible to win any of his banners. There really wasn’t a luckier coach in history. Now, I do believe luck is an ability, and it comes positioning yourself to take advantage of chance — Dean, after all, had his team in those games. But it’s also the case that the crapshoot design of March Madness adds excessive weight to the luck factor.
Dean Smith was a unique TEAM Coach
Dean played everyone. He went very deep even in the biggest games.
But the deep thing cost him in the big games. He took out players, even the best, in the biggest games. In comparison Wooden played 7/8 on his championships, Dean played 10. And I think people like MJ could have played more minutes in college.
His players achieved well in the pros and he was a great coach but I think playing so deep cost him a few games over the years.
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