Danger Signs: UCLA's Problems Under Ben Howland Run Deep
by Guest Blogger on Feb 8, 2010 6:09 AM PST
in Basketball
268 comments
By BruinBlue
A good deal deeper than Nikola Dragovic, who is a terrible player, but who will mercifully be gone soon. Deeper than James Keefe, who tries, but who inexplicably got worse in four years. Deeper than Malcolm Lee, who has flashes of talent, but who spends every day thinking of how to get out of here. Deeper than Bobo Morgan, who is a cheerful mediocrity; or Jerime Anderson, who is actually painful to watch; or even Drew Gordon, who took off seven games into the season.
Our problems come down to two indisputable facts: We have unaccountably recruited several inadequate players in the last few years. And those few players we have recruited who have great potential, almost always vacate the program after one or two years. And it doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that you absolutely cannot have an elite program with this formula. It is like the algebra problems where the reservoir is being filled with water from one hose, while it is being drained by another hose which is more powerful and faster. We recruit some players; some of them are no good; the ones who are good take off; and we have to immediately recruit some more of them. And if we should start to become unable to recruit many top players--and I think that this is going to become a real possibility--well, you can pretty easily predict the ultimate outcome.
We haven't gotten to that stage yet, but I am not at all optimistic that we are going to be able to recruit well in the next class. We've got a few players for next year. Smith is definitely a strong recruit, and Lamb is probably pretty good. And then we have a JC player who won't be here long, but who might help. Other than that, we are apparently going after Europeans (shudder), more JCs (hard to imagine it has come to that), and undersized sleeper players (smacks of desperation). Why should anyone just blithely imagine that this is going to get better next year or the year after that?
We know that Ben Howland can coach fundamentals--well, at least defensively; his offenses have never been much to marvel at. I like Howland; the fact that he is self-deprecating, takes responsibiilty, never criticizes his players in public; has great reverence for the program and for Coach Wooden. And he has had too much success to suddenly start thinking that he is not a fine coach. But a crucial part of coaching--particularly in this era--is recruiting. If you don't recruit the right players, the best fundamental coach around can't do too much with them other than what we are seeing this year. It is almost a tragedy in a basketball sense that Howland's signature, his suffocating man to man defense, had to be jettisoned, simply because he and his staff didn't recruit enough players capable of playing it. So we went to a zone, and probably got a few more wins because of it, but at what cost to future development? I guarantee you that if we keep playing that zone year after year, we are not going to beat too many good teams. it is a limited defense which is an admission of weakness, and which can almost never bring you from behind late in a game. Syracuse is the anomaly there, but Boeheim has been coaching the same zone defense for 30 years, and he recruits specifically for it. No other elite or semi-elite team plays a zone most of the game, like we are doing.
If Lee stays, we should actually be pretty good next year, except that we don't have a creditable point guard--unless Lazeric Jones is a real find. But Lee obviously wants out, and maybe some NBA team will draft him on the second round. If Lee stays, then we have to realize that he is certainly gone after next year, and that Honeycutt, our absolute best prospect, will likely be gone, too. And then where are we? Smith for his final year here; Nelson; Lane, who has real potential, though we haven't seen much of it yet; Stover, who may be a four-year project; Moser, who may be a bust, or not; Anderson (heaven help us); Morgan (see Anderson); Lamb, and Jones for a final year.. And then whomever else we manage to get this year (Euros, JCs, sleepers), and whomever we can manage to recruit next year. It isn't too appealing a future, as I see it. I do wish I could be more optimistic about this, but outside of just hope, or blind faith, I don't see how a rational perspective can warrant it.
And recruiting is going to get tougher now, because unfairly or not, Howland has a somewhat negative reputation as a players' coach, or as someone who plays a style that the kids want to play. He really doesn't deserve this, but it is there. And with all the big-time schools out there--Kansas, Carolina, Kentucky, Texas, Ohio State, et al--and with Arizona now poised to contest us for L.A. players, it is really hard to believe that our recruiting future is bright.
So do we need a new coach? Well, we would be unlikely to get a coach as good as Howland, but we could get one who might inject a desperately needed new energy in this program, and who could recruit more effectively. But it is essentially academic, because Howland is not leaving anytime soon. So our only hope is that he is chastened enough and perceptive enough to completely revamp his coaching staff. I would hope that he gets rid of all three of them, or at least Duncan and Garson, and brings in people who can teach, and people who can recruit, and perhaps act as a buffer between some of the more sensitive players and him. Without this, I could well see us mired at a level where we are somewhere in the top 40 teams, and occasionally have a team which is top twenty, but that's it. Howland will coach them up, such as they are, but the teams with the better and more experienced athletes will usually prevail.
I'm not writing this because of Saturday's loss, although it is easier to express such sentiments after losses. We had our little blip upward this year, where we turned from an absolutely embarrassing team to one which at least was competitive in the weak Pac-10. We'll probably finish 9-9 in league, end up with a losing season, and no postseason anywhere. Next year, I could actually see top 20 if Lee stays and if Jones can actually be a real factor. But after that, I could see a regression, if Lee and Honeycutt go. And how many of these kind of years can we just pass off as "a slight down cycle, to ultimately be followed by a return to elite status?" You can't be elite if you don't have very good and very coachable players, at least some of whom stay more than one or two years. It is a sobering reality that we have to face, but it is better to face it than to ignore or whitewash it, if we are to have any hope of avoiding that fate.
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Slightly ridiculous pessimism
You make an argument that we won’t be able to recruit – but then cite next year’s class which brings more talent into the program than is leaving with the graduating seniors and adds a center, shooting guard and point guard to a squad whose best players next year are probably a small forward and a power forward
You inject “do we need a new coach?” into your piece as a cowardly cop-out. If you think we need a new coach, say so. Don’t hide behind “it is essentially academic” as a way of saying ’it’s harmless for me to undermine the coach, as we know he isn’t going anywhere’.
Howland will coach them up, such as they are, but the teams with the better and more experienced athletes will usually prevail
Our first final four team with CBH had inexperienced but talented young players alongside a couple of experienced but somewhat less talented seniors (who still made it to the NBA, but were never in danger of leaving early). We will do well if we can get back that mix, building a team with NBA late-first, early-second level talent at a few positions and late-second/NBADL players to fill out the starting 5. This is tough to do, and it remains to be seen whether it can be done; but CBH has been pulling players to Westwood for a significant time since people started saying the system hurts draft stock, and had two players drafted in the top 5 two years ago.
If mentally-weak guys who don’t want to learn how to play basketball are frightened off by CBH’s reputation for hard defense and team-oriented basketball, then all the better. I’d rather they decide that early rather than take a scholarship and then bail out, and we can focus on the players who have got what it takes to play the Howland way.
"mentally-weak guys who don’t want to learn how to play basketball"
Why are they getting 32+ mins in Howland’s rotation?
ok, I'll bite
ND is a role player who is starting due to a lack of better options. Which is Howland’s fault for not having better options in his squad (and possibly other players in the squad’s fault for not stepping up to perform better)
Regardless of his many, many well-documented faults, I have never seen any comment attributed to ND like “I feel like the way Ben Howland coaches is hurting my chances” or “this isn’t my game”, despite the fact that this (apparently) isn’t the way he used to play in Europe; he has also worked on his defense – raising it from exceptionally awful to very bad. If you see quotes from him, they are mostly “I knew that if I wanted to get on the court I had to learn to play defense”, rather than “Coach Howland isn’t using my offensive skills”. He is not a good player and is truly bad in several areas of the game. We shouldn’t recruit players like him in the future. However, my comments above were NOT an endorsement of the current players, but a criticism of some of the players who have taken scholarships at UCLA without committing to being coached. We want players who have a high level of ability AND a willingness to be coached and play in the system. Kevin Love treated UCLA as a stepping stone, but bought into the CBH experience for a year: JH, DG did not, jury is out on ML. If CBH’s reputation scares off Jrue Holidays in the future I do not think we will be worse for it.
Regardless of the (de)merits of Nikola Dragovic.
CBH's reputation
The way it is out on the recruiting circles at this point of time, I doubt we would have a chance with players such as AA and JF. I could care less bringing in kids like Holiday..
Why should players come here when they see clowns like Ragovic getting minutes over freshmen with potential that all other programs were drooling over. Yeah, I am sure elite coaches are not pointing out what has happened with players like Moser and Lane. Uh, yeah, okay. Trust in CBH!
drooling over
like they were drooling over our ‘cover boys’?
We are giving starters minutes to two freshmen. Last year on a veteran team we started a freshman. We have started at least one freshman nearly every year of CBH’s tenure.
If a high school player looks at this year’s team and worries about being Mike Moser rather than believing that they will be the next Tyler Honeycutt, then that says something about them, their self-confidence and/or their impression of how they fit into CBH’s style.
Yeah
Last year we started a freshman … who wasn’t giving his all defensively yet Howland kept coddling him over another freshman – Lee – who was giving his best everytime he got his minutes. Meanwhile, it looks like Bobo never got a shot. We heard the lines about how he wasn’t proving himself during practices but I don’t really believe any of that any more.
As for this year, keep arguing Dragovic should be getting 30+ minutes a game and that Moser and Lane had no business getting substantial mins in the rotation. Keep arguing that all you want but that mishandling of rotation will not go away.
Howland has effed it up for two straight years and it has had a direct result in the current cratering of this program.
nothing seen from Bobo this year
makes me question retroactively why he wasn’t getting minutes last year.
He has been beaten out to the starting center’s role by a freshman power forward. Now you think he should have taken more minutes away from a senior PAA? He isn’t in physical shape to play CBH’s man defense this year, and he certainly wasn’t last year.
two straight years?
This would be the first by my count, unless you set 1st place every year in the pac 10 as a reasonable goal. Coach Howland’s goal is to win, or at least be competitive in the pac 10 every year. I think last year we were in a good position to win the pac 10, but a couple of bonehead games blew it. However, IIRC, we were 2nd in the Pac 10 last year, and that was after losing 3 starters from the prior year.
I really think this is the first year Coach Howland has screwed up. He should get a pass for one bad year after the ridiculous success with less talent over the past several years. We have to remember recruiting is not a perfect science. And even so, he has done a damn good job overall, and one botched class should not end his carreer (I still have faith that the current class will just take a year or two to before they start to really thrive). I don’t think we are nearly at the point of even thinking of getting a new head coach. However, if we don’t see improvement next year, and I really doubt that we won’t, we might have to (God forbid) consider finding someone else.
I think you'll find
that the average fan on this board has much higher expectations than being ‘competitive’ in the Pac-10 each year.
Expecting to win the pac 10 every year
is just ridiculous. There are of course certain years where our talent level means we should be able to win the pac ten handily, but come on, every year? Those are just unreasonable expectations to place on the players and coaches.
Uh
Majority of folks here are not expecting us to win the Pac-10 “every year.” As has been written number of times, nothing wrong with having down years/rebuilding years every 3-4 seasons. However, that doesn’t mean losing season. Last year was a “down” year.
What I meant by Howland screwing up last season was not the result, but the way he coddled Holiday by not benching him sooner for not playing any defense. He also gave preferential treatment for Shipp although it wasn’t as bad as what he has done with Ragovic. The signs were there when the Bruins just quit on him in Arizona and stopped playing defense number of times throughout the season.
We have had lot of discussions re. expectations and it is no where close to what britishbruin is implying without any shred of evidence.
+1 my exact feelings
my problem with CBH this year (began last year) is that he allow undisciplined players to stay on the court just because of their seniority, this is serious, here’s a quote from John Gold
It seems that there has been a lot of criticism regarding Coach Howland’s constant giving minutes to Nikola Dragovic, despite his lack of effort on defense and his continual missed shots. Do you think this criticism is valid, and if it is, is Howland unaware of, or just ignoring this criticism? – Anonymous
I’ve tried to ask him countless times what the punishment for poor play is, and his answer is less minutes. However, it has not translated into the games. I can certainly understand that he feels he doesn’t have a backup power forward. But at the same time, shot selection is so important, and Dragovic continually takes off-balanced, rushed shots.
what CBH is doing right now to this team, is bad teaching and exactly what parents will do, say out the punishment but never following through, how would any of these players respect him if he doesn’t follow through?
i meant *what BAD parents would do
it’s just frustrating that CBH would allow this kind of joke to take place on the court with drago’s rotating door defense and rainbows… it’s a culture that passed on with JS & JH last year, and this year we see the infection widespread with drago, gordon, lee… a bunch of entitled kids who think they can do whatever they want with no consequences
we need new blood (like how this post said about new assistant coaches) to inject life and discipline back to this program again, if not it just seem like a downward spiral…. how pathetic that UCLA’s name itself is not having recruits drooling all over to play of us……
stop having blind faith over CBH…. something is obviously wrong in the system that is preventing young 16/17 yr olds to consider other schools ahead of UCLA
we are digging ourselves into deeper holes, i hope that no player transfer out this season, even in his prima dona mode we need Lee now and next year because we can’t replace him, same thing for others including JA and Bobo no matter how disappointing they have been
In those respects I pretty much agree. As much as I respect Coach Howland (I seriously hope he gets us back on the right track and stays with us until he retires), its hard to understand why Drago is getting so much freedom on the court and so many minutes. He seems like a jerk off the court, and rarely displays much pride in defense or patience on offense, and it must drive Coach Howland absolutely crazy to give him so many minutes.
All I can do is hope that next year’s team buys into the system more and is actually physically and mentally tough enough to execute it properly.
I think we are in agreement
The sign that will really give me hope is not only we get back in contention for a Pac-10 title (note I said "contention) but also if Honeycutt returns for his third season in Westwood. I expect Honeycutt to improve more next year and basically be in the gray area where coming back for one more season will improve his stock. If Howland on the heels of a good season in 10-11 can convince Honeycutt to come back, it will be a hopeful sign.
Meanwhile, next few weeks are going to be rough and people will have to deal if the sentiments on this site reflects the tough conditions (especially if there is no adjustment in our rotations).
really, N?
Personally I expect us to be no worse than ‘competitive’ in the Pac-10 any year, and to be among the favorites every year. In a down year like last year we were competitive; this year we are ‘competitive’ in a horrible conference. Missing out on the tournament should rarely if ever happen. We ought to be poised for a potential Final Four run at least once every few years. A run of Sweet 16s won’t cut it at UCLA, though it would be an upgrade for other programs. We ought to be competitive NATIONALLY most years, not competitive in the Pac-10. If were satisfied with being competitive in the Pac-10, Steve Lavin would have been a successful coach.
I apologize if I have mistakenly projected my expectations onto the rest of Bruins Nation without any shred of evidence; I had taken from previous discussions that other people had similarly high expectations. Again, perhaps it is my misunderstanding of what everyone else means by ‘competitive’. Regardless, my sense is that UCLA measures itself next to the elite in the country, not the best in the conference.
It's also worth noting
that we are still set up quite nicely for a faux tourney appearance by simply winning 3 straight games in the Pac10 tourney, a field that is sans SUC and devoid of any dominant team, and as the de facto home team to boot. It would be quite Lavinesque and not terribly difficult to do, even for this sorry team.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
agree on Lavinesque
not sure about our chances of stringing together 3 consistent performances in a row. Maybe we beat Arizona and Cal and lose to Oregon State?
Expectations
We have always worked to keep it more than reasonable. That is why it is kind of amusing to read some people (not you bb) calling us unreasonable for offering sharp criticism during a season when the current team is not meeting our pre-season hope for a 17-20 win season.
Personally, I think UCLA should have a basketball program that should be in contention for Pac-10 championships almost every season (winning perhaps 3 conference titles every 5 years), make a legit Final-4/NC rune (with a top-3 seed) every two or three seasons. I am ok with rebuilding seasons that nets 17-21 wins every 4 or 5 years. Just not ok with losing ones.
Given the discussions we have had year over the years (during preseason), I think that lines up with majority of the folks here. I think those expectations are high but reasonable. We are nowhere close to meeting them this season.
right
people probably have to accept that to give yourself a chance to win a NC, you need to have a team with a lot of players reaching potential-NBA-draft level at the same time, which will typically leave you with a rebuilding year every few years; but otherwise you should always be at the top end of the conference and a lock for the tourney.
Interesting to think what a rebuilding season would look like. If DC had left after his junior year, we probably would have been in more of a rebuilding mode last year. 24 regular season wins would probably have fallen off to more like the 17 you put as the bottom end of a rebuilding year, but you would have had the archetypal rebuilding situation – a couple of steady seniors in JS and PAA, three role playing juniors in MR, JK and ND, and a boatload of frosh getting ready to lead the following year.
If DC had left at the end his third season
It could have been a different chemistry with last year’s team with Holiday running the point. I don’t think we’d win 24 regular season games. However, I think we’d win more than 17 and perhaps not have Holiday POed and gone to the NBA. Guess we will never know. Holiday situation was a total mess.
by which I mean
that this year was not such a good ‘rebuilding’ situation – lesser leaders as seniors, no juniors, and a bunch of pretty much equally inexperienced sophs and frosh/
ok
Therein lies part of the disagreement; but I think even if we won the Pac-10 every year for the next 5 years, if we had 5 early exits from the Big Dance, it would be a disappointment – just as it would be for UNC or Kansas.
If you are uncomfortable
With people openly questioning Ben Howland and somehow “undermining” him, get used to it.
We are on our way to have a disastrous season in which Howland wasted it on losers like Ragovic. Our recruiting potential is now in tatters. We are lucky that Lamb and Smith signed w/ us early b/c I’d bet they would have flown the coup if they waited till spring. We are going to whiff on every high impact recruit this spring and it’s unclear right now how it is going to look for us next year.
If this kind of post makes you uncomfortable, then better get used to it.
After four years at the highest level CBH should be trusted to solve the problem
We have 3/5’s of a decent starting lineup right now, and we are adding at least two and perhaps three for next year. TH, RN and ML can play, but ML has to be a 2 and he has to improve or recover his shooting touch. ML can’t go pro, because he’s not nearly good enough. He’ll be out of the league in one or two seasons. CBH can teach, see LMR, LRMAM and the AA2. He has a clinker this year no doubt, based on poor recruiting 2 years ago. I agree that better recruiting assts., hand holders and an offensive genius would be great, but I am not prepared to agree that the program is in its demise. I know we disagree on this, and on CBH’s speed in adjustments, but I can’t let these posts go by without the other side, and besides that the interaction is fun.
4 years at the highest level?
I think you mean 3 years.
Last years team lost in the second round of the Pac 10 tourney and the second round of the NCAA tourney and didn’t win the conference.
That is not “the highest level”
by silverlakebruin on Feb 8, 2010 8:53 AM PST up reply actions
how is not bringing how a banner highest lvl
your standards are pretty low…. i mean high for stanford, low for UCLA
Doesn't make me 'uncomfortable'
If people want to come out and criticize CBH, they should go for it. I disagree with the analysis presented here.
There is nothing ‘uncomfortable’ about criticizing our coach, or criticizing our players; the only thing I find actually irritating about the above is the cowardly way of questioning whether or not CBH should actually be our coach without being willing to commit to it. You have argued that there should be no talk of ‘fire Howland’ for a couple of seasons and called out anyone who comes out with that. CBH is not beyond criticism by any means, and if he continues to put out a bad team he will be criticized more and more, and his job security is not unlimited. But to say “we would seriously consider getting a new coach… but we know it’s unrealistic for that to happen right now” seems to cross the line (in a sideways indirect way).
We didn't read the post above as an adovacy of firing Howland
If anything the post puts the spotlight on serious problems undermining our program and also outs the assistants who have done a poor job since the departure of Kerry Keating.
If this was a program like Kentucky, the coversation about “getting a new coach” would indeed heat up. They already have a track record of firing a NC winner – Tubby Smith. We are not getting there. However, we do have to address the serious concerns impacting this program.
If this turns out to be a losing season and it’s looking to be that way, that would be unacceptable. Period. That means talking honestly about what is happening under the current head coach and the realistic options for UCLA to address the issue.
fair enough
In which case, we just have slightly different interpretations of the words above. Hence my reaction being different from yours.
I'm curious
Have you spoken to recruits to determine that “we are going to whiff on every high impact recruit this spring”?
I think next few months will tell the story
We can see how it all turns out for Jones, Zieglar and McCallum.
the way TH and RN are playing
I think Jones is beyond a long shot, unless we can convince him that we’ll play TH as a quasi-shooting guard to make room for him in the starting lineup (or TH at the 4 and RN at the 5, displacing the Smith/Bobo duo).
I’d love to think we can sell it to McCallum that he is the missing piece to go with the core of ML, TH, RN and JS2. But the Zeke Jones move (with JA, MAH, ML all on this year’s roster) makes me think they aren’t hopeful about McCallum… or are worried that both ML and JA will depart in different directions.
Based on Jone's comments and the buzz
it sounds like he just wants to step in right away and probably as a replacement for Quincy Pondexter. It actually makes perfect sense for him and UW. Too bad.
We are not getting McCallum
and the telling sign that we are not getting McCallum is that the staff hastily offered Jones as an insurance policy. McCallum is going to play for his Dad at Detroit U … who has all but locked him up. He is not going to come over to a UCLA program, which is on a downward trajectory under the current staff around Howland.
As for Zieglar, unless his Dad comes back to UCLA, he is most likely headed towards some place like Duke or Michigan. I’d give the chance of coming to Westwood at less than 15%. That is why staff is now targeting 2 star prospects such as Deonte Burton. It’s the new reality in Howlandwood.
some one take this posting...
I wanna see how well Nestor cal predict the future.
class of '99
Ridiculous Post.... Agree with British Bruin's take plus....
While walking the dog this AM was was stunned by this post.
CBH has recruited successfully since he has been here and to say that is going to merely cease because he had one bad class is illogical. There is just as much chance that his next several classes will be wildly success as there is that they will flop.
Don’t forget, CHB is the guy who found Russell Westbrook who was basically an unrecruited guard from a local school with NO basketball reputation (Leuzinger) ala Taft, Westchester and Fairfax.
I too have been critical of CBH’s offense as not been “flashy”. But as many have posted here before his offenses have been some of the most efficient. I’ll take that over flashy any day.
I think the reality in today’s college basketball world is no team can remain elite year, after year. There will be peaks and valleys. Just take a look at the records of the final for teams from last year. UNC is also in danger of not making the NCAA tourney this year.
How about some realism instead of unsubstantiated negativism.
Really, BN. We can do better!
Actually Howland didn't find Westbrook
It was Kerry Keating who established relationship Westbrook, had convinced him not to commit and sign a scholie till spring. That was all Kerry Keating, not Ben Howland (same with Collison).
It's Howland's program
Just as you give him credit for the final 4s and the crappy 2009-2010 season, he gets the credit for recruiting everybody. He also gets credit for recruiting the lost class of 2008. I don’t think it’s right to selectively look back and choose what we credit him with.
Whatever - you can chose to say what you want
I know enough at this point that if Keating wasn’t around we wouldn’t have RW or DC on our team.
so by that logic
Whomever “recruited” since Keating departed is responsible for the programs recent ills, not Howland?
class of '99
but he can't get credit for...
what his past staff did. I’m just saying apply the logic consistently.
class of '99
Not sure what you are arguing
Howland did get good recruiting classes in his first four years. Kerry Keating played a huge role in it. Keating was Howland’s lead recruiter, who was the key guy out there identifying recruits, setting up the groundwork, all but enabling Howland to just offer and close in the final moments.
When Keating left UCLA program was at its highest in the post-Wooden era on the heels of two straight Final-4s and arrival of Love. Howland used that to bring in two top classes but that wasn’t necessarily well scouted. Perhaps his latest class will turn out to be ok with Honeycutt and Nelson, but we don’t what we have in the other guys.
Meanwhile, this year’s class is looking iffy at best. Smith needs to lose 50 pounds, Lamb could be a contributor, and we have no idea bout Jones.
I am not blaming Howland for these past two years. Read closely. I am blaming the staff around him, which he needs to fix. It appears you can’t follow logic.
Nestor,
I love how you get so fired up and take things personally. You certainly have a lot of passion. I just think you are getting lost in your own passion.
Actually Howland didn’t find Westbrook It was Kerry Keating who established relationship Westbrook, had convinced him not to commit and sign a scholie till spring. That was all Kerry Keating, not Ben Howland (same with Collison).
by Nestor on Feb 8, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Howland has effed it up for two straight years and it has had a direct result in the current cratering of this program.
by Nestor on Feb 8, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are not giving Coach Howland credit for recruting two players you liked. You are assigning blame to him for “effed” up recruiting for 2 straight years.
If you apply the same logic to the last two years, as the previous years, CBH either owns it all, or none of it.
class of '99
Again
Howland “owns” the success wrt to recruiting players like DC and RW because he had a great assistant such as Keating. Without him Howland wouldn’t have “owned” that success.
Howland “owns” the failure from last two years because is responsible for having a staff that seems to be mediocre at best in the game of recruiting. It’s up to Howland to fix it.
If you want to get caught up in semantics and be in denial of a huge issue screwing up this program, it’s your choice. Otherwise, if you want to pretend everything is peachy over here, then don’t hang around here.
i agree
CBH will get things turned around… One tuff season does not make him a bad coach… He’s done a good job recruiting! I believe with the addition of Lamb & Smith the Bruins will be fine…
Look at the success the BBall program has had the past 4 years.. Players leaving early for the draft has hurt us but i have faith in CBH..
I ran into Stan Morrison at lunch and he said CBH was one of the better coaches in the game today….
"Success is never final, Failure is never fatal. It's Courage that count's"
John Wooden.....
keating recruiting
so is he dominating the recruiting trail at Santa Clara? he should be since he’s the reason for the Bruin recruiting success…
"Success is never final, Failure is never fatal. It's Courage that count's"
John Wooden.....
I watched his Broncos play USD last night
They looked pretty solid, but the team lacked both tough, scrappy big men and decent guard play. Keep in mind too that it was a game between the two teams in last place in the WCC, but the Pilots, Gaels, and Zags are all having good years so maybe the conference isn’t that big an indication of how poor the basketball was.
Needless to say, he hasn’t worked instant magic, but it’s hard to in a conference dominated on the recruiting trail by Gonzaga and Pac-10 schools. Usually surprise WCC teams bring in foreigners though (like the Aussie influx @ St. Mary’s) and Keating has a Canadian and an Aussie on his squad.
Coaching reputations and UCLA
This reminds me of the reputation of TD as being the greatest coach since Red Sanders, etc. For those of us who saw below the waterline (like BN is doing with basketball), the best and most competent UCLA football teams during almost every year of TD had Homer Smith as the offensive coordinator. TD liked his defense, and that was the end of the story with him. There wasn’t another OC under TD who could survive, or even call his own plays. There is a parallel here with basketball recruiting. If you look under the covers, the head coach needs the right assistants for his own style. Obviously, at UCLA now, this HC needs some real competent help when it comes to recruiting.
Mensgym
Also we have discussed this in other threads
To compared UCLA to UNC is not living “in reality”
UNC has won 2 NCs in last 5 years. UCLA has won 0. UNC plays in the ACC. If UCLA played in the same conference this season, they would be lucky to win 2-3 games.
I don't buy that
look at our RPI from the years we made it to the final 4s. Compares with those in the ACC or Big East.
I thought we weren’t measuring success by winning it all. You can’t argue with the success of Final 4 appearances we’ve had in the last 5 years.
As for Westbrook, you could say that about any recruit. What head coach these days actually is credited with “finding” prize recruits. At the end of the day its Howland who is sitting in the kids living room with the parents making the final sale to come play for UCLA and him as a Head Coach. Others may find the talent. But the head coach has to real them in.
Then live in a world of delusion
If there was no Kerry Keating at UCLA, then RW or DC would never be in a UCLA uniform. You might not chose to accept that reality, but doing so would entail living in a delusional world of blind faith.
As for UNC, Roy Williams does have a larger reserve of good will because he hung two banners. That’s a reality.
And it is also a reality that if UCLA played in real power conference, their current record would have been much worse. It probably would have been worse than the overall record we compiled during Lavin’s last year and Howland’s first year at UCLA.
In seventh year of a coaching regime that is simply unacceptable. Are we advocating the firing of Howland right now? Of course not. However, the heat is on and it has intensfied given how Howland stubbornly has wasted this season.
While it's true that this year the Pac-10 is pathetic
I would argue that during the 2007 and 2008 seasons the Pac-10 was the best conference in the country.
I’m pretty sure we can all agree that Roy’s success at UNC is due to his recruiting, not his coaching style. Same with Self, Calapari, Barnes, and to a lesser extent Thad Matta. Those guys win in a manner reminiscent of recent USC football teams: they simply have more talented (and more-talented) players than the other team. If we want that sort of team, Howland should drop a line to WorldWide Wes and see how things go…
Agree with Nestor
that this year the Pac sucks, but All has a point about the recent past. Just checked: in 2007, Pac-10 players were drafted at spots 10, 16, 26, and 27. Two more in the second round. In 2008: spots 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 15, and 21. 23% of the first round from the Pac. Five more in the second round. There’s a reason the league as a whole has plummeted. And yes, before someone replies with this point, I do realize that had we and others done better at recruiting to make up for this loss of talent, we as a team or a league wouldn’t be where we are.
All this goes to show
that the NBA shouldn’t be able to use the college ranks as its developmental league. It’s a completely unfair deal.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Many have proposed it
but I like some variation on the rule that you can go straight from HS to the pros, but if you don’t, you stay in school at least three years. The Kobe-level players could deservedly go straight to the NBA, and others would actually be forced to (gasp!) develop. You’d think the NBA would love it, as they wouldn’t be paying the JH’s of the world (I know I’ve mentioned him twice today, but he’s a great example) to sit on the bench. Of course the players’ union will have nothing of it.
I'd settle for a 2-year minimum...
… so at least some of these kids learn the importance of discipline and structure.
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
More on the Pathetic Pac (Pacthetic? Hmm...)
The new weekly rankings are out. The Pacthetic-10 has, combining all ten teams, combining all 96 voters over both polls, this many points:
Someone had posted that "we are in the same boat"
as these FF teams. I would argue that we are barely in the same ocean. No one expects us to make the FF every year, but “our valleys” should be at least a winning record and an at large tournament bid, and not losing to teams like Fullerton and Long Beach in our own backyard, or getting blown out at Pauley by the SUCsters.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
Why look at the Final Four teams?
Because they are struggling (by their standards)? 3 of those 4 teams play in the ridiculously tough Big East. Our current RPI would place us behind Rutgers, who is currently 15th out of 16th in the Big East.
I would also bet even money that at least 3 of these 4 “struggling” teams make the NCAA tournament, and at least 1 of them makes it to the 2nd round, the same place we ended last year.
These teams may be “struggling”, but they haven’t come close to the depths that are team has sunk to.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
Actually
Michigan St. and Villanova were FF teams last year. They are doing just fine.
UNC and UConn will both find a way to get into the tourney. Wouldn’t surprise me if either one of these teams got to the sweet 16. This would still be a “valley” type of year for these programs.
Let’s stop comparing ourselves to these programs.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
Also...
KU won the championship 2 years ago, the same year we went to the FF, and is poised for another FF run already…
Yeah but this period of prosperity was proceeded
by two embarrassing first-round exits. Granted, they made the tourney and had some hype, but it’s not like they haven’t had trouble too.
Straying slightly OT, question for pessimist re. TH
It seems like a trending topic on BN of late is CBH’s inability to hold on to players. Running parallel to this topic is talk of ML and TH jumping ship early. My question is, do you guys really think TH will be in a position to get drafted next year? I mean, I love the kid, I love his all-around game and I think his future is bright but he has yet to show so much as a flash of offensive polish.
Out of curiosity, I decided to look up the stats for all the small forwards currently listed in the nbadraft.net. 2010 mock draft. For the sake of offering a more relevant comparison, I’m putting up their numbers from their respective ’08-09 campaigns. In other words, if TH is going to be draft worthy next year his number this year should match up well against these:
Player PPG RPG APG
Wesley Johnson* 12.4 4 1.4
Al-Farouq Aminu 12.9 8.2 1.5
Damion James 15.4 9.2 1.3
Stanley Robinson 8.5 5.9 1.2
Luke Babbitt 16.9 7.4 1.4
Elias Harris** 15.6 8.3 1.3
Da’Sean Butler 17.1 5.9 1.7
Quincy Pondexter 12.1 5.9 1.6
Luke Harangody 23.3 11.8 2.1
Magnum Rolle 12.2 7.2 1
Lazar Hayward 16.3 8.6 1.1
Kevin Palmer 18.2 5.2 2.8
Landon Milbourne 11.4 5.2 0.6
Charles Garcia*** 20 8.4 1
Marqus Blakely 16.1 9 2.5
Tasmin Mitchell 16.3 7.2 1.9
Raymar Morgan 10.2 5.3 1.2
Averages 14.99 7.22 1.51
Tyler Honeycutt 6.4 6.4 2.1
Is it just me or is one of these things not like the others? I’m sorry but until he can prove himself to be a viable scorer, TH is unlikely to get love from NBA gms.
I just realized there is a recent fanpost regarding “early departures,” sorry this ended up here as it is a little more OT than it would have been there.
numbers from ’07-08, Johnson sat out ’08-09 after transfering
*numbers from ’09-10, Harris is a freshman
***numbers from ’09-10, Garcia is a JC transfer
Well our guy Jrue
got drafted in the 1st round after a whopping 8 ppg average, so I don’t really put a lot of stock into what NBA GMs are thinking about numbers.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
But what Jrue had last year and what ML has right now
are the occasional (in MLs case very occasional) flashes of really impressive offensive potential. I seriously believe that NBA GMs will draft wings based on one or two impressive plays in a season if their size/athleticism are there. TH has not had one of those plays
Again this comparison
is TH’s stats this year vs current draft-worthy player’s stats last year. In other words, TH would have to take a much bigger step up offensively next year than these guys did from last year to this year if he is going to get to that level. Hope that made sense
For sake of Ben Howland
We need Honeycutt to take that step next year. Otherwise, it’s going to get lot worse in Howlandwood. It’s a messy situation and Ben Howland is responsible for it.
TH will have a much better chance
at putting up big numbers next year without ND and MR around. I don’t see much scoring coming from anyone other than TH and RN, unless ML moves to the 2 and decides to become the slasher he’s capable of being. 10 ppg next year plus athletic potential will be enough for a team to try TH in the 2nd round.
TH
I can see a GM gambling on him based on upside. But, staying another 1-2 years and being a first round lock is a much better choice.
Doubt he is leaving this year
All bets are off next year though when he will most likely be the primary focal point of our basketball team. If his stock improves to first round, he is gone.
Agreed
Honeycutt is a future pro, but 6’7" 178 pound small forwards cannot play 82 games a season. He needs to beef up (or at least show that he can put on weight).
Injury
Yeah, I agree with both of you. Doubt he’s going pro this year, and he still needs to improve to be a viable NBA player. His off season was already cut short with injuries, this may be a blessing in disguise because it’ll probably keep him in Westwood longer. (Not really a blessing for TH.) As a program hopefully we’ll have his services through his junior year.
agreed
It is a pessimistic post, but a post that resonates with the facts on the ground.
Two things to consider:
1) There are good reasons why elite coaches/programs make it their business to avoid this kind of a “down” year. (A previous post highlighted the fact that the Izzo’s, Williams’ Calhouns all have downs but not this low).
The most glaring reason is recruiting; how do you sell an elite recruit a “rebuild” when the program has bottomed out on your watch?
2) Also, while there are reasons to be optimistic about next year, there are real reasons for concern, particularly on offense. Howland’s “system” has relied heavily on point guards who could break down a defense at the end of the clock and decent three point shooting to break down zones. The lack of an elite point guard is a glaring problem, but with Roll and that other guy gone, where is the three point shooting going to come from next year?
Furthermore
Everyone seems to be pinning their hopes on a JC point guard. Get this … this guy was so off the radar .. that the current staff wasn’t even recruiting him all summer … and didn’t start checking him out until it became clear they were going to whiff on all the elite targets.
Given their track record on recent evaluation, how can we give them the benefit of the doubt and be confident that Zeke Jones is the answer?
Calhoun has had lows this low
And more of them, relatively speaking. He followed up the 1996 season (1 seed, lost Ray Allen) with an 18-15 clunker (7-11 in Big East), went to the NIT in 2001 with Caron Butler on the team, and had no postseason in 2007 (6-10 in conference), one year after being the overall #1 seed in the tourney.
Jim Calhoun has never had a losing season
We are having a losing season at this point and it doesn’t look to be getting any better. We laid out in details struggling seasons Calhoun and other elite coaches have had over the years. It wasn’t like this. A losing season will not be acceptable at UCLA. Period.
By "not acceptable," what do you mean?
I agree that we should never have a losing season. But we are on our way to one. If we do go 15-16 or worse, then what? Fire Howland or wait and see?
Then Howland will be on the hot seat
We will see how next year turns out.
In any event, we won’t have to do much to exert pressure. UCLA will feel it on its own because no will want to pay up for Pauley to watch a sh!tty product.
Recruiting is the key; Howland hasn't forgotten "how to coach"
It’s all about recruiting. If you are/want to be an elite program, you end up recruiting elite athletes who have grown up under an AAU system that fosters entitlement and questionable attitudes as well as "legality". Star players view their "mandatory" college experience as just a stepping stone. It’s a chance to SHOWCASE their talents, not to learn and build.
So, after 3 straight FF’s at UCLA, Howland finds himself in the new position of going after more elite guys than he ever had a sniff of at Pitt. Although I think your “strawman” is not on target, I agree totally that his recent recruiting has been a big problem. Don’t worry about the current recruiting of jucos, Euros & sleepers. That is happening because that’s all that’s left for next year. At the same time, Howland is going after the usual “elite” jrs, & sophs for future classes. And this is where I think he needs to improve.
Problems:
- recruits being told that it’s not fun to play under Howland
- pgs being told that they won’t have freedom under Howland
- wasted effort by staff on elites that we don’t have any chance with
- poor strategic recruiting like this years group overloaded with frontcourt players
Like you, I agree that 1,2 above are huge problems. I’m sure the negative recruiting against Howland happens a lot out there. Success and more guys like AA, JF, DC & RW will eventually minimize those two issues – BUT we need to be successful!
I think that the last two problems are correctable. He’s going to learn from recent mistakes. Except for the lack of backcourt players, I like this year’s class and feel encouraged by the incoming group of Smith, Lamb and LZ. And I’d like to see a sleeper SG in that group.
Uhm
What elite recruits UCLA will have a shot at next year? You want to tell us who we are going to get and have a real shot at?
That's the problem Howland has to work out.
I want to be optimistic. We won’t know the answer until the NLI’s come in.
If he fails, then the trend is pretty well established and the “hot seat” will heat up.
8 players who are top 11 at their positions
Indicate medium interest in UCLA. That indicates to me a “real shot” at 8 top 50 players. Good shot, I have no idea.
If you were a recruit and in order to gauge likelihood of team basketball success as a factor in your recruitiment, and likelihood of ending up inthe NBA as another factor in your recruitment, you would look back over the last 5 years at what the program has done in those categories (past is not predictive, but it is in reality the only way we can find facts to support our arguments). You will not find a better west coast program than UCLA. You will only find 2 or 3 better programs int he entire country.
Also what makes you think Jones is a great recruit?
Have you seen him play? Did you know that staff wasn’t even know much about him? Do you have confidence in our assistant’s ability to judge a recruit after watching him just 4-6 times?
Zeke Jones seriously considered Nevada over UCLA
by DoubleTroubleBruin on Feb 8, 2010 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
at least he talks a good game
“Defensively, I’ve really improved, guarding my position,” Jones said. “That’s really one of my strengths. Coach Howland really preaches about defense, and I want to help there”
“I feel that the coaching staff can really take me to that level,” Jones said. “I’m sure all the players came in really good, but no one comes in great. I really like how Russell Westbrook came in and worked really hard and worked on getting his game to the next level.”
Does he sound like an elite game changing guard? No. Does he sound like someone who will buy in to the system and work hard for 2 years to make a contribution? Yes.
Sadly, I don’t think Zeke Jones is “the answer”. But he sounds like a solid role player and a guy who will push others to be better by practicing hard. No need to bash the kid before he even arrives. Agree that we shouldn’t pin hopes on him, disagree that we need to make fun of a guy for considering the opportunities offered by ‘lesser’ programs when he only has 2 years of eligibility.
"talking a good game"
Yeah every member of Class of 2008 did that as well … not hard to look up their comments when they signed with UCLA to play “defense” for Howland.
somehow
I believe it more from a Juco kid who doesn’t seem to be coming in with any sense of entitlement. But he could easily disappoint. Not getting hopes up very far.
do you have any reason to doubt this kid's sincerity
other than doubting the recent track record of the coaching staff?
I doubt the current staff
And I don’t care much about getting excited about what a JC guard recruited by Howland’s current staff has to say, no matter how sincere he sounds.
sure.
Wasn’t sure if you were being non-commital or negative about the kid. Non-commital seems perfectly justified under the circumstances.
The kid could turn out to be just fine
I am just not pinning any kind of hopes on him. I will be happy if he turns out to be a pleasant surprise.
Howland
has seen the errors he’s made and atleast he is trying to fix the problem instead of doing nothing. Let’s hope this kid does work out.
by LouisianaBruins on Feb 8, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
just to clarify british
i wasn’t making fun of jones so much as i was making fun of the University of Nevada. In all seriousness, I didn’t mean to be harsh. I was just pointing out that it’s unlikely Jones is the savior we need. Will he be an upgrade over JA at the point? Yes, probably. I will support him like I do every other hard working Bruin hoopster but I fear he’s not the answer to all our problems.
by DoubleTroubleBruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:58 AM PST up reply actions
guards
Muir Coach pointed this out; it’s guards in particular that are a problem for Howland moving forward. The word on the street is that as a guard you will have to subjugate your game to Howland’s offense. Collison’s surprising blooming in the NBA and Jrue’s defection (you can hate Jrue all you want, but that doesn’t change perception) just make this worse. In other words, it’s not an accident that there’s no elite point guard or SG on the horizon.
Collison was all pac 10 twice
and third team all american at least once.
Afflalo was Pac-10 POY and two-time all Pac-10. First team All american once.
Howland is really holding back those guards.
+1
Yep. Stats blow up in NBA no matter what system youre running. If anything, Collison exploding just means he was well coached and prepared in college.
UCLA '08
by BruinTrouble on Feb 8, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
Not always true.
Just using our own examples:
LMRAM is not averaging stats near his 9 and 8 college numbers in college.
KL is not raacking up 16 and 11.
AA is improving, but his avg this eyar is closer to 12 than his peak of just under 18.
Systems, roles, PT, injuries — all play a factor.
"In this program your passion bucket must be full to play SC." -- CRN, to Dan Patrick, 1/2008
I agree with you but would argue
That recruits aren’t being told its not fun to play under Howland, they are SEEING it isn’t fun to play under Howland. As I have mentioned before, the no sleep, closed practice, bunker mentatlity gets old after a while, and its just not enjoyable. Would you want to work for a boss like that? I wouldn’t. You can be great at what you do and find joy in it at the same time.
Likewise, they see that PGs don’t have much freedom under Howland. Its not a rumor. If you are an elite Guard that is going to be in the NCAA for a year or two, do you think Howland would ever trust you enough in one or two years to let you do anything? He is way too controlling for that. I don’t see him ever having success recruiting a one or two year guard in the future with his reputation going forward.
by silverlakebruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
Though they aren't top 10 this year, Jamie Dixon has Pitt rolling
using tough, brawny, inter-city kids that remind me of Luc, Alfred, and Lorenzo with their tenacity and commitment to rebounding. Other than that I agree with most of your points… I chat with the basketball players down here from the LA area and they say reviews of Howland from ex-UCLA guys are anything but glowing.
Howland's style
is just not the best fit for LA area prima donnas. I like his style very much, but I’m also 36 years old. I can’t really blame a kid for not wanting to play under such a tough-nosed guy for potentially 4 years…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
I think you can have very good teams
with those kind of recruits and that kind of system. But I am not sure you can get to championship level doing it that way. At some point talent wins out, and to attract top not talent, you have to play a style they want to play.
by silverlakebruin on Feb 8, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Agree 100%
which is why I’ve been upset with the struggles with “top-tier” recruits. Howland got us to those 3 FF’s with hard-nosed squads featuring some key offensive stars. I assumed that once he started bringing in guys like K-Love and Jrue every year we’d simply build upon that “tough basketball” foundation. That hasn’t happened, which doesn’t bode well for our hopes as a championship contender… You’re absolutely right about “top talent” wanting to play a certain style.
Don't put words in my mouth. Did not say that.
Said I was encouraged by the 3 recruits. That’s not the same as saying I think LZ is great.
Well,
Remember I said the group of 3 is encouraging to me. I totally like Josh Smith and Tyler Lamb. Lazeric Jones at least arrives in a position of need. Maybe he’ll push Jerime to better fulfull his potential.
Anyways, what I like about Jones is that he’s viewed by some as one of the top JUCO pgs nation wide. I like that he comes from a tough Chicago hoops background (actually the same HS as Derrick Rose). And I like that his body is more mature, stronger physique than Jerime. But, a lot remains to be seen. And of course, Howland has got to go strong for an elite pg anyways.
Why the Zeke hate
is it just ‘cause he’s a Juco kid? Two of the best pgs I’ve ever seen play in person were Juco kids (Rafer Alston and James Hall).
Not hating at all
Just asking questions. I am just not trusting of this staff’s ability to spot and recruit Ben Ball warriors.
And that is totally justified
Whether the early success was all Keating or the negative recruiting hadn’t taken hold yet, I am with you that recent results have me worried.
Think he can spot them, but he just can’t close the deal for guys like Michael Snaer, Gaddy (don’t discount this kid based on this year’s performance), Avery Bradley.
Seems to do okay with bigs – but maybe they are more open to Ben’s system and maybe they actually need a bit of development (since the AAU seems dominated by wings and guards showcasing their stuff).
Kills me. Jrue Holiday should have been the program changer in terms of perception, ie a super high ranked elite delivers program success under Howland, then goes on to star in the NBA. Instead, … well, we know the story.
Maybe this is oversimplifying, but...
Howland’s early success resulted in a change in Howland’s recruiting strategy. I agree that we do not have the players to see Ben Ball played the way that we all expect. He recruited “Howland” types during the recent upswing (JF, AA, LRMAM, AA2, LMR, etc.), which culminated in bringing KL to Westwood. This put Howland in a position to recruit talent. Not necessarily the type of talent he wants, but the type of talent everyone wanted to see. This then coincided with the 2008 recruting class. You know, the one that has unequivocally poisoned this program. From Holiday, to Gordon, to the selfish hacks that are still left on this team. Yes, Howland is to blame for a lot of things, but for me, I really think that the “#1” recruiting class has played a large role in where we are today. That and ND refusing to get off his knees (blowing games for us).
Part of me wants to latch on to your hope
Then the other part of me reminds me that for all the “diamond in the rough” type of recruits Howland brought in his first two years (LMR, LRMAM, & PAA), he also brought in JF, AA, JS, and DC.
The later ones would be tough to get under current climate given the current perception around Howland’s program and lack of a ace recruiter (who can evaluate talent/build relationships) like Kerry Keating.
Which brings to question
What is the ceiling of this program under Howland moving forward? That’s basically my concern in a nutshell.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
I think
There has to be drastic changes with the current coaching staff at the end of this season (no matter what happens through rest of our games).
There has to be changes in rotation if Howland wants to earn back some of the goodwill he has squandered away this season. If he doesn’t the negativity around the program will intensify.
If Howland can bring in another ace recruiter or even somehow lures back Keating, and then does a better job of communicating with his players on his roster, he could rebuild this program back to where it was. It will entail giving up his stubborness, which has proven to be his main weak point at UCLA.
I agree that we are in a bad spot now
And there isn’t a lot to suggest that if not for the assistants he had (i.e. Keating), Howland would have had the same success. I obviously am not getting into what we can do for the future, I am just lamenting the sad state the program is in. I don’t even know what to suggest for the future since my optimism is sadly at an all time low.
Maybe Howland needs a basketball Ogre, though one who doesn’t cheat or sound like an all-around dirtbag :)
Well
I am not going to do any frontpage post on this topic. Coach Keating’s Santa Clara team is in last place in their conference. They are not doing so hot. Who knows? Perhaps he will come home, Garson will be sent back to the video room, and Duncan will either move on or asked to be move on, allowing UCLA to bring in another competent assistant coach/recruiter.
JF was the key to the entire program
He was not my favorite player, but he was the one who turned the program around. JF’s self assured arrogant play, resulted in him willing the team to victory. He has yet to explode as a pro, and he’s a bit slight and undisciplined. He was better than JH as a freshman, but was no diamond in the rough. Given CBH’s reputation, I don’t understand why we can’t get more tough players like him. He certainly wasn’t inhibited in his play at UCLA, although CBH might have been hard for him to take after a while. The the contrary, DC sings CBH"s praises. We should definitely use him and AA for recruiting.
You are absolutely correct
about Ben’s recruiting. but there will be a lot of people who don’t want to see the truth, so won’t. I see this in business every day. Its the whole “I was successful doing things this way 5 years ago, so if I only try harder to do the same thing I will be more successful” school of thought. Times change. Situations change. What is successful five years ago may not be successful today.
I can’t think of a single player who can create his own shot that Ben has nabbed for next year or is in the running to recruit in 2011? This doesn’t make Ben a bad person or a bad coach, it just means that kids aren’t excited to play his style of ball, and you aren’t going to get offensively dynamic players to play in his system because the pace is too slow. (Not saying offensively ineffecient, but a slow paced style). Ben will recruit fine, he will get good less athletic hard working players who can fill the roster and be good enough to win the pac 10 every third or fourth year and make it past the sweet 16 with the same frequency, but he isn’t going to attract the talent that wins national titles with the way he wants to play. It just isn’t going to happen unless he makes serious changes. And high control people very rarely change.
Nothing wrong with having the zone in the arsenal and employing it when you need to. In my mind the great coaches can teach their teams to play multiple defenses and adjust as needed based on matchups and roster. One of the few things I really respected about Tim Floyd.
Speaking of Timmeh
We have now effectively gotten man handled by a team (core of which was built by Timmeh) for two games in a row and it looks like at best we are hoping for a “true moral victory” in a gym we had never lost at before. Yeah, nothing is wrong with this picture. Nothing at all.
Last year's squad was timmehs!
this year’s squad I wouldnt say was his. Its sort of a mismatch.
by silverlakebruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Excellent point about control
The very thing that makes Howland VERY good will not allow to him to be great. The Wiz knew when to let his horses run!
However, I think occasional sweet 16s is optimistic given the problems Howland is having getting guards. Lavin was able to make those surprising NCAA 16 runs based purely on guard play.
Lavin was great at getting talent
But a terrible coach. Ben is a very good coach teaching his system. Make no mistake about it. He can take good talent and make it into a great team, particularly with experience.
by silverlakebruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
Howland is a great teacher (I think)
but I don’t think he is as good of an in-game coach.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Howland received commitments from three top PG's in one year!
But yes, his controlling nature and the outcome of this season is going to make getting guards even harder. If only because these knuckleheads from the Class of 2008 will blame their lack of success on Howland in order to improve their draft stock (except for JA, who I suspect will NEVER get a sniff of the NBA).
NBA?? JA should not
be getting a sniff at D-1 minutes at the moment. From what I’ve seen, he may be able to rise up to earn decent minutes at a WAC/MVC-type program. He wears the four letters at the moment, and I would love for him to prove me wrong…I’m just not counting on it.
Guards should flock to Coach Howland, regardless of one season
After all the guards he has put in the NBA, and especially since every single one of them is thriving. All they have to do is look at JF, RW, AA, DC, or JH (sigh), and they should realize that Howland can turn them into an NBA player.
JH not thriving so much
They love him in Philly, but he can’t shoot and Kobe almost laughs when he defends.
I don't mind that,
it might make another one of our future guards, or any player really, consider staying for a second year like RW did, even if he is hearing he can land a first round pick.
Jh is averaging
5.3 ppg. Less than 2 asst. Only getting 18 minutes, which is crap for a high first rounder. If you were a NBA gm, would you take ML? Looking forward to a DC, JH matchup. Looooooooooove DC, a true blue bruin
#'s in the NBA
To be fair, #‘s in the NBA are hard to judge given the team dynamics involved. For all the ill talk of Allen Iverson, he’s still a much better player than JH is at this point
And DC wasn’t getting a whole lot of time while Chris Paul was healthy, but during his injuries, DC has obviously had to step up and so his numbers will look good
The Wiz didn't let his horses run.
After Goodrich and Hazard, the Wizard had dominant rebounding that led to fast break basketball. Whether it was Alcindor, Wicks, Rowe and Paterson, Walton, or Washington, Johnson and Myers, they cleared the boards and ran. With KL we did the same. In the half court, the team was extremely structured (Greg Lee, Andre McCarter at point.) Tommy Curtis sat on the bench. Enough of this revisionist history. If CBH could dominate the boards, his team could run. This team has to fight for every rebound and breaks about even.
i'm not happy with this season either
and agree that a losing season at UCLA is never ok but i also am not ready to discuss the finer points of CBH on a hot seat. he’s done great things with the program and led us to amazing successes which included 3 straight final 4 runs. he is clearly stumbling this year (due mostly to a busted recruiting “fab 5”) but, in my mind, he has earned more rope from us.
that being said, i don’t want people to fool themselves about the talent coming in next year. they are not our saviors. zeke jones was an under the radar, undersized PG coming out of high school who didn’t even get a glance from the UCLA staff. he happened to grow a few inches AFTER he graduated high school and has put on some weight, building a D1 sized PG body and has played well in JC. Even then, he got limited attention and seriously considered transferring to Nevada rather than UCLA (wow). josh smith is, yes, the #1 rated center in this year’s class but i watched him play on ESPN last week and was less than impressed, particularly with his conditioning, defense and athleticism (i’m aware of his injury). i wonder how he fits into CBH’s defensive schemes. the comparison’s to pittman seem fair. as for lamb, i admittedly haven’t seen him play yet but i hear he could be a difference maker.
i’m concerned about our talent level for next year. i completely agree with nestor that CBH has made some highly questionable rotation decisions this year but i will not waver in my faith of CBH until i see THAT group assembled and playing together. i don’t want to be a pollyanna here (simply delaying this discussion) but that’s my 2 cents.
by DoubleTroubleBruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:16 AM PST reply actions
Appeciate the request
But we are not going to “delay” this discussion any longer.
Of course if you think we have realistic shots at beating Southern Cal, Arizona, Washington … feel free to initiate it in the fanposts.
We are not going to stay quiet while Howland continues to torch this program with clowns like Ragovic.
i understand
and realize i’m talking out of both sides of my mouth by (1) acknowledging we’re bad THIS year, then (2) questioning the incoming class, but (3) saying we should all be patient with CBH…
Perhaps I just want to hold on to highs we had just a few short years ago. i guess i am a pollyanna
by DoubleTroubleBruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
No worries
As BruMase did last week … if you guys (not just directed at you) strongly feel you can keep the focus on next game keeping all the big picture issues out of your mind … then feel free to write posts on next game, scout opponents etc.
We will do our best to bump up those posts (even if they disagree with us respectfully). However, yours truly will not be writing something that I don’t feel is right in my gut. I have got to write or feature what I think makes sense on all level (based on emotion and reality).
Write what you will about your feelings...
but don’t think that I am keeping all the big picture issues out of my mind. I don’t mean this as an attack, especially since I mostly agree with you and I have the same frustrations as feelings that you do about Howland and the way this season is shaping up. I just felt like being positive last week. Less so today after another deflating loss.
Oh yeah
I hear you. I just wanted to let people know that I will always write what I feel. I am not writing here to serve people up with boilerplate give previews, posts that are same every week. I along with all the others have been blogging on frontpage, to share our thoughts on what is going on with UCLA’s athletics, especially it’s two major programs. If the outlook is sunny, you will hear that. If the picture is gloomy, we are not going to pretend otherwise.
RELAX!!!
Great programs have occasional bad years . . . last year, Georgetown had a stretch where they went 5-11 in their conference. This would have been worse had they not beaten a horrible DePaul team in their final game before bowing out early in the Big East Tourney. This year, they are a virtual lock for a 2 seed and maybe a 1. CBH has not recovered from RW’s explosion during his sophomore year, coupled with early departures, leaving “Roll” players as starters (Roll, Draculavic, and Queef). If we blow next year, then we can start looking for answers . . . in the meantime, it is absurd to hang a guy we canonized a couple of years ago just because of a down year.
charnaw
A “down year” is fine. A losing one is not. Georgetown doesn’t have the same pedigree as UCLA.
Also for the record, we are not “hanging” Ben Howland. If anything the post offers hints at the flaws that can be corrected (read the comments on his assistant coaches).
If you want examples on how we really go after a head coach, there are probably hundreds if not thousands of Dorrell posts/diaries/comments to chose from.
not really
Keefe is a marginally talented athlete who plays hard and give his all. I don’t see any reason to give him a crappy nickname like that.
by silverlakebruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
If anything
it can be argued that CBH has misused James for much of his career, though a lot of that had to do with his injuries.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Just to make sure ...
People don’t think I am making it up:
Also using hindsight, Howland said he wished he had never suggested that James Keefe take a redshirt season to rehabilitate his surgically repaired shoulder. When Roll was injured the second time, Keefe had to speed his recovery and be available for Pacific 10 Conference games.
“I knew that with Mike it was a long, long deal,” Howland said. "I struggled with that whole decision, both to redshirt James and to bring him back.
“What an idiot I am to have thought that to begin with. What a dummy I am to have thought otherwise.”
Like I said, the fact that Keefe’s career has been mishandled at UCLA is not up for dispute.
That would make it
an argument you can back up with quotes NOT from three wealthy and influential alumni.
Dude, do you have a screen open just to search archives? LOL! I feel like a naughty boy reading this stuff at work…but I can’t help it. It’s like heroin. Nestor you bastard!
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
no kidding
this one of my tabs next to the WSJ…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Mishandled Career accounts for last year.
For this year, he should have prepared himself to play. I am astounded at his lack of development, even though he has worked very hard. His moves around the basket are awful. Compare him to Aboya. Aboya was a dumb player with awful moves for three years. His improvement for his senior season was mind boggling.
don't like it
i too am disappointed with JK’s “progress” at UCLA but he is still a warrior and doesn’t deserve a nickname like that
by DoubleTroubleBruin on Feb 8, 2010 9:40 AM PST reply actions
Agreed
but (as I argued unsuccessfully with my wife for about an hour) this is an acceptable word for Scrabble.
"I don't forget very much" Rick Neuheisel, 11/28/09
Please give Coach Howland a Chance to prove himself
At the beginning of the season, I had predicted this team is at best a 50% winning team, with Roll, ND, and Keefe starting. Execpting Roll who is having the most consisting season so far, the other two do not deserve a starting roll, and I am not saying they don’t try hard. This team is the worst shooting and passing team as long as I remember in the past 20 some years. On top of that, ML and BoBo are way over-rated. Basically we lost the whole team. It is a tough job for any coach to inherit such a young team. I do agree Coach should start playing the freshmen now because this season is over realistically. I don’t think it will not hurt us too much if the freshmen getting more minutes. I am still hopeful we will be better in the future, with some right kind of kids coming.
We are trying to give him as much room as possible
He is not helping himself by taking a dive with Ragovic.
I know what you are saying, Nestor, but....
Maybe I am like Coach Howland, I am hoping ND can have a shooting spree every game since no one else can shoot. He did have some good games, didn’t he?
by NNL on Feb 8, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
No he has had three good offensive spurts this entire season
He probably has had one or two complete games in his entire career at UCLA. As mentioned above he had 2-3 decet 10-12 min offensive sport this season, but they were all rendered moot because how he forgets to play defense or doesn’t care about it in 90 percent of his possessions.
That goes the same for ML, JA, and JK
How many good games these three guys had? Probably less than ND! I just feel sorry for Coach for lack of options.
Not arguing Keefe or Anderson should get 30 mins either
I made suggestions on how I think mins should break down in my post yesterday. Please refer to that. Thanks.
I am not near ready for CBH to be fired...
and I realize you’re not calling for that, but you state
It is a tough job for any coach to inherit such a young team.CBH inherited this team from CBH. You and I are in total agreement that the current roster can’t reach .500, and we’re in total agreement that it’s time to play the freshmen. I just think that it’s fair to start questioning CBH based on both the recruiting (or lack thereof) and distribution of minutes.
Feel free to correct my ignorance
Our recruiting potential is now in tatters
As long as CBH continues to churn out NBA players, this won’t be the case. CBH has a proven track record of developing NBA level talent, isn’t this what prospective recruits look at mostly?
by inhowlandwetrust on Feb 8, 2010 10:42 AM PST reply actions
Who on the current roster
do you think can at some point get more NBA minutes than JH is, to choose an easy example? TH is a skilled athlete. I believe he’ll develop greatly over the summer, be one of our two most productive players next year (along with RN), and it wouldn’t surprise me if he left after his soph year. I’d be shocked if he stayed for 4. I can see him at least getting 10 minutes a game as a second-teamer in the NBA. Beyond him…
ML? Even if a team takes a flyer on him based on ‘potential,’ I don’t see him doing much more than JH.
RN? He’s a stud as far as college freshmen go. He could possibly develop into a Madsen-like player, but continuing that into the pros strikes me as unlikely. (I’d love to be wrong on this one!)
So as a prospective recruit is looking at this team right now, there’s not a lot to see. Yeah, you can give them the “you’ll get lots of minutes” argument, and in theory that would work – but less so with CBH than others. We can’t tell prospective recruits that they’ll be playing with 3 or 4 other future NBA players. I don’t follow recruiting, and I know there are many on BN who seem very knowledgeable about it, but if I’m a kid choosing a program right now, I don’t see a whole lot about UCLA to get excited about.
I think TH will blossom next year.
ML might, at best turn into a poor man’s Matt Barnes (Who I love and would have been a great Ben Ball Warrior).
Its impossible to predict too far into the future with college basketball
I admit that this year is starting to look more and more like a disappointing season. That said, if RN doesn’t get a concussion on Saturday, who knows we might be in sole possession of first place in an admittedly weak conference. But he did, so it is what it is.
Assuming ML doesn’t make a terrible decision and leave, I think CBH has a pretty good roster next season. Our point guard spot still remains a concern, but ML should slide back to the 2, TH will be the 3, RN will be the 4, and Josh Smith will be the 5. That will likely be the most talented starting five in the pac 10. As for the bench, hopefully MAH will stick around and give this team a shooter, MM should be able to backup TH for 10 minutes a game and hopefully Lamb can contribute 5-7 backing up ML. BL will be RN’s backup and JMM and AS will split minutes with Smith.
When you look at next year’s projection, with MM/JMM/BL likely playing less than 10 minutes, the argument that they should be getting 10+ minutes this season becomes rather weak. Why give players who are going to be bench/role players at best next year significant minutes this year?
As for two years out, its impossible to predict what will happen. ML and TH both could leave as could Smith. Or they might stay. We might get a big recruit, or someone might get injured. CBH could get offered the UConn job and leave. There are just too many variables to start worrying about something so far and so impossible to predict. RW’s leap from his freshman to sophomore year was unexpected. DC staying for his junior and senior years was also. LRMAM leaving after his junior year was a little bit of a surprise. KL leaving was expected. DG being a knucklhead wasn’t. JH being an absolute failure in college was a surprise, but his bolting for the NBA wasnt. I don’t want to place all the blame on Holiday, but the source of many of the problems from last season and this season regarding failed expectations and bad attitudes really can be traced back to him. But again, no one thought that when JH committed to CBH that his lasting legacy would be so bad. This is why you can’t predict things so far out in the volatile world of college basketball.
I pretty much guarantee you
Josh Smith is not starting next year, barring injury. The only guy who was able to do that was Kevin Love, and even he had to wait to start because he had to learn how to hedge, etc. You can pretty much bet that RN will be getting most of the minutes at the 5 next year, that’s just what CBH does.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Bad guarantee
First, KL wasn’t “the only guy who was able to” start as a freshman as we have two freshman who start right now (the fact that RN sits on the bench for 1:30 doesn’t make him a real bench player). Smith is fat, but he has quick feet—something JMM and KL don’t have. If Smith doesn’t start, either JM or AS will as there is no way CBH starts RN and BL since that would leave no one to be the backup 4.
I mean at the 5
But regardless, if Smith is starting because of our limited options at another position, that doesn’t exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy…I hope he pans out and loses some weight, gets stronger, so that his quick feet can be put to good use.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Smith shouldn't lose too much weight
Again, to compare Smith to KL and JMM, Smith has a much better frame than those two. He is taller than KL and wider than JMM. Smith’s game is built on bullying people around the basket, so his girth is actually a benefit. Yes he needs to be able to run up and down the floor without getting tired so conditioning should be an issue with him, but as for actual weight loss, I don’t know if it is ideal for him to lose too much weight.
i want to see
that fat turned into muscle. even 300 pound shaq never looked like smith, until more recently.
by Captain Leebeard on Feb 8, 2010 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you re: bench players
(though perhaps they should be getting 5 mins per game this season to prepare them for 10 minutes next season)
My real worry is that we might not be much better next year unless someone has an epiphany and becomes a D-I point guard, and unless one of our three scholarship centers is ready to play at least 20-25 minutes a game next year.
by britishbruin on Feb 8, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Yup pg is the issue
JA has been much better as a backup point guard because that is where he is at this point. If JH did stay a second year and JA didn’t have the expectations forced on him to be the next great UCLA point guard, we probably wouldn’t be as down on him. I have no idea what to expect from Jones who might be good or might be terrible. For all we know, ML might end up being the point again next year. Really, TH is the best playmaker and distributor on this team and it would be wise to run the offense through him as a point forward. The problem with that is then you want a point who can shoot, and none of those options have proven that they have any ability to shoot from the outside.
BruinBlue makes some good points ...
but …
I don’t know that it’s true that Malcolm Lee spends any more time dreaming of the pros than any other player does …
I don’t know that it’s true that Jerime Anderson won’t improve and be a productive point guard next season …
I don’t know that it’s true that Tyler Honeycutt will leave after next season …
I don’t know that it’s true that recruiting is going to get tougher because of Howland’s reputation. In fact, I don’t see why that would be necessarily true. On paper, Howland has not had a bad recruiting class. Yes, current sophomore class has failed miserably when compared to what we thought we’d get from players with their reputation, but those guys — Holiday, Gordon, Morgan, Anderson, Lee — all had plenty of scholarship offers from all the right schools. So far they’ve been our busts (with three guys still playing and with a chance to have good seasons in the future) — but they might have been anyone’s busts. The failure of that recruiting class to produce is to me the number one factor in this poor season. But I don’t necessarily consider Howland a failure for putting that class together.
We’re getting good play out of two of the freshman in the class that followed and I still have high hopes for Lane and Moser. They just aren’t playing yet.
And then we followed up that class with Smith and Lamb — both have good to great potential.
As I said in the subject line, BruinBlue makes some good points. I’ll give him that. And it made for a good thread and discussion so I’m glad Nestor put it up. But, in context, BB is one of the most relentlessly negative, doom and gloom “fan writers” I’ve ever read. His posts here and on the BRO message board consistently and almost without fail paint the most negative picture possible. He does it in hoops in particular but also in his football takes. Therefore, while I acknowledge that he raises some excellent issues, I don’t necessarily think his worst case scenarios are the only possibilities before us.
BruinBlue does bring up negative points a lot ...
… however, we also have a responsibility to put forth these issues out in the open, especially when they are all in the back of our minds.
Oh, no doubt ...
I said as much in my comment.
And for the record, I don’t really like commenting on other posters — the topic is Bruin basketball, not BruinBlue or Nestor or Achilles or tasser.
But in BB’s case, he’s so consistently of the belief that the glass is half empty that I felt it was relevant to note that in my response.
Yes
And for that reason not all of his posts automatically go up on our home page. That said he has a great perspective and often allows us to see things we might not want to see.
There are good reasons for this to be placed so prominently. He makes a lot of salient points that we all have to acknowledge.
In my mind
Howland is in a really tough spot this season. He could give up on the seniors and play the kids (which would put us in a better place for a 2011 Sweet 16 run at least, I feel) or he could continue trying to put lipstick on the pig that is this season. We’ve been extremely unfortunate with how bad the Pac is this season, because the pathetic nature of the conference means we actually have (had, really,) a shot at winning the league and hope of running through the Pac-Tourney for a bid. Howland is in the unenviable position of choosing between a modicum of success these season and simply trying for next year. Granted, if we keep blowing Saturday games, eventually UW, AZ, and Cal will put us in the rearview mirror.
Finally a personal note, my highschool basketball coach was very vocal about giving up on our season once we started struggling my senior year. I like to think that Howland is a nice enough guy that he cares about JK, MR, and Drago enough to not let them down like that. It isn’t the best or most logical move, but speaking as a player who was given up on, that sh*t sucks and I appreciate a guy who won’t bail on his seniors. Like I said, it’s not the best move, so I’m not advocating this decision as wise coaching, but on a smaller, much more insignificant level, sacrificing that win-first mentality for your players is one of the little things that sports can be all about.
Let them down?
The only guys he would let down are MR and JK. I don’t think not playing Rago would be “letting him down”, it’s Rago who has let this team down by not improving a single aspect of his game in the offseason (except perhaps his defense…marginally…from a hellish aberration to disgusting).
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
The irony is ...
all our best players seem to jump to the league early.
We finally end up with a trio of seniors who didn’t jump to the league and they’re playing like a trio of seniors who aren’t nearly good enough to jump to the league.
I understand wanting to repay their loyalty. But why can’t Lane and Moser get a few of their minutes just to see how they do? Isn’t there something in between being loyal to the seniors and at the same time acknowledging that they’re inconsistent players? I see no reason why Lane can’t get some of the JK/ND minutes or Moser for that matter.
I'm with you A
I just keep seeing Lane in a Duke uniform and imagining that Ratface would have found a way to play him…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Once we went zone ...
I thought for sure that Moser would get some minutes.
The guy is long and lean.
One of the things other coaches do better than Howland is get playing time for the players at the end of the bench. I think Roy Williams is a good example of a coach who manages to get guys a few minutes here and there. In the past, we’d say, “Well, Ben isn’t going to play so and so because he doesn’t know the system or he doesn’t rebound or he doesn’t defend.” Well, now we’ve got guys playing 30+ minutes and they don’t defend or rebound. So, what’s the excuse for not giving Lane and Moser some run?
Why recruit players
if you don’t give them a chance to show what they can do in a real game? I played organized sports since I was 6 and there were always players who just knew how to play in games but weren’t very good in practice. There’s something to be said for feel and instinct over methodically playing according to a system…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Ratface found a way to play Taylor King nearly 10 mins a game as a freshman
and then saw him leave for Villanova, where he is now playing 21 a game, chipping in 9 points and 6 boards on one of the top teams in the country.
Silly Ratface for wasting those minutes.
In all seriousness, if BL and MM can see they are not going to start ahead of RN and TH next year, and might consider leaving because they don’t want to be backups next year, then playing them this year might not be all that fruitful. The obvious counterpoint is that they might be less likely to transfer if given more playing time this year – but, as with the Taylor King example, this might not be true.
Jumping to the league
is not just a Bruin issue. There are very few NBA-quality players, especially players who can earn more than 10 minutes a game in the NBA, that stay in school 4 years. The 2008 first round of the draft had 17 seniors of 30 picks – but only one in the top 15. 2007 saw 19 first-round seniors, but only 2 in the top 15. This year, on Chad Ford’s ‘top 100 draft prospects’ on tWWL, 3 of the top 20 are seniors. This year’s list of 31 candidates for the Wooden Award contains but 10 seniors.
Most players who are good enough to jump to the league don’t bother to stick around four years first. There are a few (DC and Sherron Collins come to mind), but they’re the exception that proves the rule.
An excellent point
I envy the Kansas team from two years ago… Rush and Arthur stayed that extra year because of injuries/health problems, Jackson and Kaun were two very good players who simply weren’t quite good enough to leave early. We just haven’t been that lucky : (
At some point I’ll go over some stats and try to compare the development of that 2006 team (where our players got extra minutes because of injuries and youth) to the minutes of the last 3 years, when Howland reallllly stuck by a core group of players. Granted, that core was damn good, but the youngins and role players have been pretty underdeveloped. Once these three seniors are gone I feel like we’ll once more see that revolving door that Ben put up at the check-in table during ’06.
MR has been awesome this year
If he was the number 3 option, instead of No. 1, he’d be even better.
I don't think its that important that we can see what they are capable of,
since Howland can see what they do during every single practice. Effort and results shown during team practices should be the way to earn your minutes. All I can do is believe that they aren’t making enough noise during the practices to earn Howland’s trust which equates to minutes in the game. I really think its a common misconception that players have to be thrown into a game to see what they are capable of. I know gametime and practice time aren’t the same, but I understand why a coach wouldn’t want to give minutes to players if they aren’t doing well in practice.
yeah
I don’t think CBH should suddenly start giving the seniors half the minutes they currently get. It would probably be worth getting BL a few minutes. Unclear whether MM is in the dog house currently – hard to believe that minutes aren’t available when MAH is getting some. Seems like MAH is working hard and being rewarded.
The other point that I still think is relevant – just ‘giving’ minutes to players doesn’t seem CBH’s style and doesn’t seem right. But I think if someone like BL tries hard and performs pretty well in a practice, CBH probably should consider being more generous with the time. I.e. I am against any declaration that “we’re playing for next year”, but he might consider making it slightly easier for freshmen to earn playing time.
by britishbruin on Feb 8, 2010 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
well the question then is...
If ‘giving’ minutes to players doesn’t seem CBH’s style, I’m not sure what he sees in Drago who has well documented on-court AND off-court issues
I wonder if he has a thing for loyalty towards seniors? This is, after all, his first time sticking with a program after 5 years, so this would never have been documented before
I mean, I’ve heard some people write that Stanback was shown the door because he didn’t play the style they wanted… does play time factor from that too?
This of off-topic
but my take on Rago is a baseball analogy. He compares to a slugging outfielder who connects with a moonshot only once in a while and does not need a glove on defense since he never comes near a fly ball. There have been (and will continue to be) many like him in baseball due to his ability (through infrequent) to hit a three-run homer. A career .240 hitter who can hit 30+ dingers in a season.
He is a rally-killer- the guy who steps up to the plate with a couple of runs in and no outs, tries to hit a grand slam, and taps to the mound to start a double play by swinging at the wrong pitch.
I'd say
Andruw Jones, but at least could field. He was the definition of rally killer his last few years here in Atlanta. He would hit a three-run homer in an 11-4 game, but in the clutch he would very rarely get on base.
The Dodgers had a series of guys who could light it up in Albuquerque but struggled at sea level. A present-day guy is Adam Dunn.
The simple mention of his name makes me throw things
He did everything but walk up to the stands and spit in the faces of Dodger fans during his hellish time here in LA. Probably the worst $27 million I’ve ever seen spent.
As a baseball sabermetric...
Adam Dunn at least get’s on base at an incredible clip, making him still valuable…
Vlad Guerrero
Great analogy. Vlad has never seen a pitch he doesn’t think he can hit a homerun off of and ND has never seen a shot he doesn’t think he cant make. Neither is a very good defender. Unfortunately for ND, his shooting percentage is more like a quality batting average.
I almost mentioned Big Daddy ...
but Vlad was arguably one of the best right handed hitters in the AL in his prime — Drago never had a prime.
Vlad was actually great in his prime
I’d say… Sammy Sosa pre-roids and post-roids
My favorite line
back in the early 80s about Lasorda’s Dodgers was a joke- What do the Dodgers and Michael Jackson have in common? They both wear gloves on one hand for no apparent reason.
Lasorda came to speak to us at Ackerman one day. That was fun..and yes, I am old.
Don't Even Put Vlad and Drag in the same sentence
A MLB allstar and a College level scrub. Blasphemy!!!
I will admit I'm uncomfortable..
with questioning CBH. And at the same time, I know it needs to be done and this is the best forum on the planet to do it. This is a big time university investing huge dollars in an individual to maintain and build the glory of UCLA basketball.
And at the same time, this same CBH is the one that we have supported and loved for his results on the court, his professionalism off of the court, and his reverence and respect for the institution.
I guess where I’m most uncomfortable is in trying to determine whether this is the beginning of the end for CBH, the dreaded coaching “tipping point” or is this just normal…a human being who is having the inevitable off-year. If it’s the tipping point and going in a bad direction, then full stop let’s fix it. If it’s just a human being hitting a speed bump then I feel we should proceed with care while the facts are being assembled and scrutinized.
Not that this answers the question, but I took a look at UNC basketball which is going through it’s own version of the agnoy that UCLA is. The article at this link
speaks to the “Crash of Carolina Basketball.” In it we hear Coach William’s say things like:
“I haven’t done a good job with this team," he said. "As a coach, to say that … it’s hard. It really is."
and..
“Appreciative as they are that he’s taking the blame, North Carolina fans don’t seem to be spewing much venom toward Williams. Sure, there are occasional negative posts on Internet message boards and comments on radio shows.”
And by poster whoshouse1118 on Inside Carolina on Scout.com:
“WTH has been going on off the floor during practices and at team meetings/gatherings if he hasn’t done a “good job with this team?”
I know that he is saying these statements to take the burden of this dreadful season off his players, but now 23 games into the season…WTH has gone on during this season between the team and coaches? Something isn’t right."
The similarities are weird and I am not enough of a basketball expert to speak to the inside story of why this stuff is happening to our great program. But if it can happen at UCLA, and at UNC it begs the question of is something else at work. Do great programs attract one-and-dones in waves and set off a viscious cycle of lousy recruiting that is based on plugging a hole versus prepping for long term success? Did the seeds for this year’s debacle at UCLA start several years ago with the parade of short-term players who used UCLA as a steppingstone? Can any coach do better?
I don’t know and I hope that this post causes a little more pondering about where we are and what it will take to move ahead. I’m in the camp that still trusts CBH to figure this out and feel he’s earned the right for more time to do it.
The comparisons to UNC this year just doesn't fly
It’s comparing apples to oranges for number of reasons discussed in this thread and elsewhere.
I hear you
I was just struck by two elite coaches that seem to have both seen their teams go off track this year and also seem list by what to do about it.
Recruiting issues
Next years class looks good-I have seen Lamb 8-9 times, Smith 3 and film of the juco from high school. Smith needs to enroll for summer school, lose 20-25 ponds, gain strength, Lamb is ready now.
Further recruiting needs attention. A recruiter has to see his targets in a variety of situations not just workouts and high school games but club teams and even pick-up games where they play against tougheer opponents. the current staff needs to be changed but keeping only one of them. The early departures to the NBA will always be a concern given the $ being available. You take the money and run as you will get longer and more specific coaching at the next level.
We are so frustrated that there is a lot of venting going on here
I think if a coach has a good program, a la Mark Few, then he avoids these rather public booster trashings. I have said before here, that no excuse allows UCLA to be sub-500. Coach is in fact on the hot seat.
That being said, I have two interesting musings.
Coach Wooden in his book makes it very clear that he wanted a short rotation of players, like 7, established by league play. He did not like to go deeper on the bench than that.
Perhaps, in his own way, CBH is rebelling against the one and dones. Maybe he is trying to show potential recruits out there that if you stay 4 years, you will play and play a lot. Even if you aren’t that good, he is going to reward four year players. Possibly he is hoping someone out there figures this strategy for recruiting out, and he starts attracting these 4 year commits. For better or worse.
Louisville, KY for UCLA class of '87
You wote ...
Perhaps, in his own way, CBH is rebelling against the one and dones. Maybe he is trying to show potential recruits out there that if you stay 4 years, you will play and play a lot. Even if you aren’t that good, he is going to reward four year players. Possibly he is hoping someone out there figures this strategy for recruiting out, and he starts attracting these 4 year commits. For better or worse.
I hope you’re wrong. I can sort of take the “he’s playing the seniors because they give us the best chance to win” argument because I can’t really refute it. If he thinks that Drago gives us a better chance to win than Lane, I can’t make a case against it.
But if he’s playing guys as a reward for staying, then he should be fired. You play the best players — it’s the cardinal rule of sports. You stop playing the best players and you’ll lose the whole team, you’ll pull the rug out from under all their assumptions.
The better player plays, period.
no less speculatively
maybe CBH just really hates that 1972 NCAA rule change. Perhaps, by refusing to play Moser and Lane, he is rebelling in his own way against the concept of freshman eligibility. Even if you are that good, he is going to ignore the other programs drooling over you; if you stay just one year you will not play, or play just a little.
+1
Both made me chuckle AND think about a fascinating article about the Wake Forest football team… Jim Grobe requires almost all of his incoming recruits to redshirt their freshman year.
Then why do TH and RN get so much playing time!
This anti freshman stuff is silly. CBH is playing his best combinations, however inconsistent they are. He thinks its the best chance to win. He doesn’t think that BL and MM are ready, and unlike Bruinsnation (minus me) he is unwilling to pack in the season. Its just not his nature. Others want to second guess the coach’s PT decisions. Why not, its fun to speculate. Truth is, it would be shifting the deckchairs on the Titanic. If we take out Drago, we lose our third leading scorer, which we can’t afford to do, even though he’s a defensive liability. BL will be just as bad or worse on D and much worse on O. Same with Bobo.
I agree
The better player plays, period.
I don’t think at any previous program CBH had to deal with the defections as he has here. Maybe, at this point in his career, he is frustrated by this and is trying to prove something by rewarding 4 year players. And his stubbornness is making him go down with his ship. Maybe that’s what were watching.
I always thought that Tubby Smith did a great job of recruiting high levels mixed with several low level recruits. By keeping 4 year role players, he maintained a respectable level of performance. Unfortunately, it still wasn’t good enough, and he was run out here in KY. By the way, he never went sub-500.
Louisville, KY for UCLA class of '87
The only way to win is to stockpile
You need so much talent, ala Memphis, Kentucky, Duke, NC, that when the defectors lead, you can reload. It is really hard to do. There are so many more top programs now all fighting for the same guys.
CBH is a victim of his own success
He had very good players, they became great, and they were picked off. He hasn’t recruited a KL, JF, or AA and hasn’t made a Luc Richard, or a Westbrook this time. The cupboard is almost empty. That doesn’t mean he won’t do it again. And as Tommy Lasorda said, This game isn’t so “-…….:” easy.
I think ...
he had success because he had great players.
He recruited a bunch of NBA level talent. In retrospect, we had enough talent to win a national title. We just didn’t. I guess we were disappointed but we didn’t take it too hard because I guess we thought we’d just keep rolling along.
Little did we know …
But we had Farmar, Afflalo, Mbah A Moute, Colison, Westrook and Love in a very short period of time — all now contribute or more than contribute in the NBA — and we didn’t win a title.
It’s too bad.
I'm Wondering how many of the people posting have ever played organized sports?
I agree CBH deserves criticism this year on his coaching! With that being said…He is the coach not a player. He tells the players what to do. It’s up to them to play. I have read a lot of the comments and disagree on a large scale. This seems to be a what have you done for me lately post, we want results now.
CBH resume speaks for itself.
We went to 3 final four’s, had 3 pac-10 titles (2006-2008) CBH has won every place he has been at. With success there will be players departing. I believe every player who decides to go to UCLA has aspirations of going to play in the NBA. I don’t believe it’s CBH fault for them wanting a better life and to compete at the highest level. CBH job is to get these players to be complete basketball players, which he does. Look at how many UCLA player’s get drafted in the first round. KL,RW,JF,DC,JG. He is a great coach.
We all want UCLA to be dominating the pac-10 again. “WE Will” We just need to support CBH when he needs it!
no one is saying
That he hasn’t had success.
But building a program from ruins and maintaining a program are two different challenges. And it appears that we’re currently in the trouble phase of maintaining a program.
Great Post
We have to remember most of the Bruin players also have a chance to play pickup games against all the pros who come out west in the off season.. Once they feel they can compete at that level where’s the incentive to stay in school?
"Success is never final, Failure is never fatal. It's Courage that count's"
John Wooden.....
Well ...
he’s built three programs.
But he’s now been at UCLA longer than anywhere he was previously.
I agree he can coach. But it’s also okay to ask this question: “He can build a program, but can he sustain a program?”
I’m not saying he can’t, I’m not saying we need a new coach.
I am saying that that’s a legitimate question.
That question sounds familar
Why do I feel like this discussion has happened before about sustaining a program
Man, and to think a lot of haters came out when I questioned CBH a month ago.
Our program is in tatters, our team is a joke, and the most storied college basketball program can’t even get an invite to the NIT.
I'm not a coach nor do I play one on TV but......
I have watch 40 years of UCLA BB . I am also married to a K-State alum and have watched Frank Martin’s teams for the last 3 years. Comparing the two teams this year, K-State is playing as a team and UCLA isn’t!
The Bruins seem to have no team chemistry what so ever. I saw it last year with the Freshman and it has carried over to this years team. We just do not seem to be playing as a team.
We have to many NBA wannabe’s who have had smoke blown up their collectice arses. Too many guys who were the “give me the ball” types and not enough team players. None of them can shoot a basket let alone make a free throw.
We don’t know what goes on during practice but I suspect the team practices defense and offense and team play. Having been a coach of youth sports, I can tell you once the team steps out onto the field or court, the game is out of your hands. The team can do what it wants and the only recourse the coach has is to yank a player and to try and coach them if they want to listen. This year’s team doesn’t want to listen.
Not to beat a dead horse, but…. Howland got burned bad by one-and-dones. With Love we knew he was only going to be here a year. Holiday, burned us bad! Not only did he leave after one year but he dicked Howland around on his decision to leave. By waiting till the last minute to declare for the draft he tied Howlands hand on recruiting. CBH was left holding the bag on a scholarship that he couldn’t fill. We still have no point guard.
JA is the turn over king. Every time he brought the ball up court in the Cal game, he’d turn it over. What happened to bring the ball up court with urgency. JA dargs his behind up court at a snails pace and then turns it over.
I guess I’m a geezer but I can remember something called the UCLA full court press and also the UCLA half court press. Am I just being nostalgic ?
I'm a bit torn at the moment
On the one hand, it’s hard for me to be pessimistic (or realistic, depending on your view) about our basketball team. I want to want Howland to be the right man for the job, and to be frank, I’m willing to give him a mulligan this season. We were heavily invested in the wildly underperforming stock known as “The (Remedial) Class of 2008,” so naturally, it’ll take us a bit of time to get our house back in order. That’s not excusing Howland, of course. He recruited those players; it doesn’t matter if the scouts ranked them highly or not, he should know what type of team he’s trying to build and what players fit that vision.
To me, this season constitutes Ben Howland’s inability to cope with the modern recruiting landscape. He recruited players who saw UCLA as a stepping stone, not as a destination, and I think we’re witnessing the effect of that clash of ideals right now. To succeed, Howland’s going to need go back to what he did before: that is, to recruit top-flight talent while while building around blue-collar grit (like Reeves, perhaps). Unless you’re recruiting Carmelo Anthony, it’s safer (and more stable) to build a college team around Tyler Hansborough (IMO). Hopefully, his brush with the prima donnas of ’08 has taught him a valuable lesson as a coach and as a recruiter. If he has, then our team will be better for it. If not, well — that hot seat will be getting quite a bit warmer.
Now, let’s step away from recruiting and on to the on-the-court issues. Here, I feel for Howland. He’s starting a point guard who looks flustered with the ball in his hands; Lee can’t create with the ball, so Howland needs players capable of stretching the floor. That’s Roll and, unfortunately, Dragovic. I want to make it clear: Even though I understand Howland’s rationale, I don’t agree with it. I want to see Lane and Moser getting significant minutes. In a Pac-10 this weak, they’d gain valuable time to develop and hopefully build some confidence going into next season.
I guess what I’m getting at is… I’m in wait-and-see mode. There are reasons for concern, and it would be silly to shy away from them. At the same time, though, I see genuine reasons to be optimistic: Reeves is playing like a beast out of his natural position, Honeycutt has been developing into a stud (and good God, how about his court vision?), and Howland has shown a flash of flexibility by going with a zone. Hopefully, this season was an aberration, and we can all identify it as such a few years down the line.
by Wazl on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Great comment Wazl
You should fanpost this because I have a sense many are feeling the exact same way as you are.
I'm not going to jump shipp on howland
He had one useless recruiting class (coincidentally that was the class that the national media (#1 ranked class) as well as us fans were most hyped about). I think that we have 2 very good, very ready to play freshman. Neither is 1 and done type player. I could easily see Nelson being a 4 year player- he doesn’t have the game that NBA scouts would try and get him to go after 2 or 3 years, more like a brockman or psycho t. Honeycutt still needs to work on the shot and put on some lbs. When he does he will probably go, hopefully he stays longer because he’s the type of big athletic wing we’ve needed for years.
Yeah he made some mistakes, with Anderson, not recruiting more backcourt help which is odd cause he can sell the fact that RW started off as the 6th man the season he became a top 5 pick. We should always have good guards here. Also, rotation is suspect.. I’m not sure what other people see in Moser, in his limited time he didn’t seem very good yet. Lane should take up some of keefe and dragovic minutes, bobo should play a little too.
Aside from pointing the finger at howland and dragovic, why not point the finger at our mcd pg and his backup who have not looked the part.
true
i mean as the primary reason.. but i guess as howland himself says.. blame falls there.. i just wish some players would step up and take responsibility/ownership of the team.. roll and honeycutt and usually nelson only ones doing it and its not enough
What a great series of posts!
This stuff explains why, sunshine pimp though I am, I have become addicted to BN. I do want to add, though, that my greatest disappointment has not been the dragoman, since I expected very little to begin with, but rather with BL’s and MM’s failures to capitalize on and really show something during their limited appearances. Equally disappointing, to me at least, has been ML’s failure to develop a reliable jump shot. Can the NBA really want him as he is?
disappointments...?
MM has played 5.7 minutes a game – in the 10 games of our 23 that he’s appeared in. BL 6.9 mpg in 19 games of 23 this season. I agree they haven’t shown much in that time, but as I and others have beaten nearly half to death, they haven’t had much of a chance. This is not in any way a jab at you, ReineSeite, just venting a frustration. I definitely share your addiction!
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