Random Thoughts on Southern Cal and the Sanctions
Bumped. GO BRUINS. -N
I got a letter from my Alumni Association on Thursday -- no, not UCLA, but the other one that purports to represent me because I am a graduate of a law school that happens to occupy some of its real estate. The trogans want me to know that they are taking steps to deal with the dirtiest program in college sports. My reaction?
1. On Hiring Freeh to "Protect" the trogan Athletes from Those Who Prey On Them
Oh, those poor $c athletes -- the Reggie's, the OJ's, the tennis players who run up thousands of dollars of phone bills on school calling cards, the people who take free rent to live off campus, the guys who drive their "baby mama's" Range Rovers and park them in plain sight on campus, the the weak and simple -- we must tell the world, and the NCAA that they are all VICTIMS. Yes, VICTIMS. Victims who have no moral compass, who, although they are admitted as "students" cannot understand that taking the money and favors they took breaks the rules they are sworn to abide.
What's the solution? Let's outsource. Let's hire someone else to fulfill the responsibility, that is ours, (and take the blame if need be) of educating our student/athletes on evils of agents.
So, sc has to hire Freeh to teach people like Reggie Bush that it’s wrong to ask an agent for a new car, for money for rims, and for even more money?
They have to hire Freeh to teach people like Bush that his parents are not allowed to take a house from an agent?
And, to teach coaches that when their running backs are clearly taking cash they have to speak up and stop it?
And, that it’s wrong to have agents in the locker room?
Reggie Bush is the victim? And, by golly, sc is going to help Reggie and all of their players like him to learn the simplest of moral lessons?
Are you really taking the position that your players and coaches are so "vulnerable" as to need someone to install both a moral compass and and NCAA GPS so that they can understand, find and see violations?
Are you really saying that your athletic director and coaching staff cannot fulfill that role?
Are you really saying that your student/athletes are so amoral and uninformed or dumb that they don't know or understand the simple rules that govern "amateur status" in college sports?
If so, shame on you, your program and your people. You deserve far harsher sanctions than you received.
As to the "we are victims" lament, this may be one of the lamest responses I’ve ever seen and certainly not one I would base my reputation or future on.
If I trotted this out in court to defend a client, I’d lose all credibility and my client would be severely punished for not taking responsibility for its actions and not showing an ounce of understanding or contrition.
And, by the way, were sc my client, I’d advise it not to appeal, to get the sanctions behind it as quickly as possible. Living in the limbo of an appeal with be living under a cloud for many years. At that time, sc will be under intense scrutiny. And, who will want to go there knowing that any moment the shoe will drop.
Mr. Sample, do you really think your new victim protection group will make all of this right?
I think sc is getting very bad advice. Or, maybe it isn't. Maybe the collective arrogance and traditional "we own the cops" mentality makes it think it is invincible. It is not. And, it will learn that, soon enough.
Sue on! You will lose in the courts of justice. And, you will get killed in the courts of public opinion.
2. "Fight On! We will win this on appeal". Uh, I don't think so.
The likelihood of winning on appeal? Probably not very good.
The trogans have announced that they will appeal on three grounds. Frist, that the facts do not support the findings. Second, that the penalty was excessive. And, third, the "we didn't know" any of this was going on, lament.
Let's get rid of the "we didn't know" first. The answer is simple. You should have known. That was your job. And, there is evidence that you knew -- a certain running back coach is still in trouble over this. And, so too the person who paid the calling card bill. Do you really think that saying "I didn't know" is a defense? Do you think that planned or feigned ignorance is enough? It's not. The rules do not allow one to deliberately or recklessly close one's eyes. You have to keep them open. You have to do the right thing. And, you didn't.
The trail to victory on the other two paths is very steep. I don't think they'll make it to the top. Be it an administrative hearing or a court challenge, I don't think they will prevail.
They will have a hard time challenging the factual findings. From what I learned by listening to the panel press conference, and from what I've read, the NCAA was very conservative in its findings — most seemed to be carefully anchored in the record. I think they were restrained because they knew there would be challenges. They have several lawyers on the panel -- people trained in making a record that will withstand attack. We wondered what took so long? Why they didn't come down harder? I think they were building a rock solid record -- one that would withstand challenge.
Yesterday, we heard from Cheaty and Athlete #1 -- they both want to help, they want to clear the "misunderstandings" up.
It's a little to late to decide to be open and honest. sc will not be able to bring in "new facts". It had a chance to build the record and, apparently, was not completely forthcoming. I draw this inference from the fact that the penalties were not mitigated because sc did not cooperate at a level that would lead to mitigation.
It is very hard to overcome findings of fact on an appeal. Appeals boards and courts defer to the people who heard and saw the actual evidence. On a pure factual challenge, sc would have to prove that no reasonable fact finder could have reached the conclusions the committee reached. Interestingly, it was a well credentialed committee that had more than one lawyer and law professor in its ranks. I don’t see a court messing with the factual findings.
sc’s seems to be rooting its claims in an argument that the penalty is "excessive". The problem it faces here is that the NCAA regulations state that the standard of review requires that an appellate body find that the panel "abused its discretion" in making its findings and setting the penalty. The "abuse of discretion" standard is, like most in law, amorphous. But, it connotes a "higher" standard of review — one that is very difficult to satisfy.
I dont’ know that any of the trogans actually believe that they will win the appeal. I don't think they can win a "pure" legal challenge.
They may be banking on "political" power and/or influence -- the staples of their survival. If they had any influence, I would have thought it would have been most effective against a toothless NCAA before it made its findings. I actually think that "influence" tempered the penalty some. (Unlike most around here, I do not think the trogans were hit all that hard. And, I think that will make their appeal weaker. For purposes of an appeal, they would have been better off with a death penalty.)
But, I have a hard time believing that any appeals panel, be it administrative within the NCAA or a court will feel that influence after today. Why should it? As much as sc thinks it is important, there is no constituency out there that is vested in protecting sc’s approach to sports. And, without that nationwide political pressure, what little influence sc may wield in getting players off when charged with local crimes will not do it much good in this bigger case.
The burden of proving an "abuse of discretion" will be on the trogans. Those of us who have faced that standard on appeal know it is very difficult to approve.
The NCAA has taken a stand. I’m sure it was tough to take. They socked the bully in the eye and made him cry. I don’t think they are afraid of him any more. And, the way sc is whining and posturing now, is not going to scare them. The bully is no longer intimidating.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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They are banking on a media/PR campaign
Strictly directed at their base and their usual lackies such as SChilly Smith, Brett Mushberger, Kirk Herbstreet, Ted Miller, and other members of the traditional media, who have been looking the other way for years, while all this was going down.
They are going to work very hard to portray themselves as ‘victims’ and hammer that message through their echo chamber. This is not about winning on legal process. They don’t have much of a case. This is all about ginning up fake outrage and then trying to publicly intimidate the NCAA officials (who probably have never dealt with this kind of institutional arrogance from what amounts to bunch of punks pretending to be leading a legit “athletic department” from an “institution of higher learning”).
I don't think the PR campaign will work
In the end, it’s not espn that votes — they’ve got to get an NCAA panel or court to actually undo part of the sanctions and I don’t think they will.
PR was a strong tool before the decision. It loses it’s impact when the standards on appeal are so high.
And, I’m not sure sc can keep up the PR attack long enough to matter. This will be old news, soon.
Finally, there is a lot of push back against sc’s PR campaign. It’s not just us. Across the country people are saying “It’s about time.”
In large part, I think the PR campaign is aimed at donors and future recruits. Keep the money coming. And, “hey, come play for us; there won’t be any sanctions, we promise.”
sjh
I generally agree with you on this
However, folks cannot get complacent if these punks try to sustain the bluster we have seen in last 24 hours. Luckily as you said, it is not just us. The entire country despises these scumbags.
"I think the PR campaign is aimed at donors and future recruits."
I have to agree with 66 on this. I’ll go so far as to say the PR campaign is intentionally aimed at the fan base and future recruits. By preaching to the choir how they’ve been wronged and ’it’s us against the world;" they achieve their true goals. Stem the flow of player defections. Keep the recruits coming by remaining in the public eye. Do enough on the field to keep their fan base in the seats and donors writing checks.
My niece (A Second Choice sophomore) recently came home with the notion instilled in her that ’perception is reality." This is what they are trying to do through their media lap dogs. Just keep spinning the truth, muddy the facts long enough and the suckers will fall for it.
The best thing you can do for your children is to love their mother. John Wooden
Hmm. Wrong relentlessly preached as truth, then eventually accepted as such.
Guess what. (Sadly) That works!
I Think They Put Their Hopes in the Wrong Bank
Nestor, I think you were right — sc is playing the PR/public opinion game. But, I think it is losing.
Interestingly enough, it appears that they are not finding the support in the press they thought they’d receive.
I read the excerpt from Slimers and it was very damning.
I bet that if we had a clipping service, we would find that there are very few stories buying into the “we are victims” or “they are inflicting too much pain” camp. I’ll bet we’d find that there are farm more saying “It’s about time.”
sjh
They are losing
A PR campaign would work if Alabama, Oklahoma, and all the powerhouse programs got behind them. They aren’t and these programs are leaving $c to take their lumps. Nationwide opinion, the opinion that the NCAA cares about, is squarely in the NCAA’s favor. By launching a PR campaign that only appeals to the interests of the dyed in the wool Trogan fan isn’t going to get you anywhere. So your fan base is pissed? So what? They would be pissed about any punishment even slightly above a mere slap on the wrist.
I was reading the NCAA Division I handbook but I couldn’t get through all 431 pages. From what I read under the chapters that deal with the appeals process, it doesn’t look good for $c, especially when they take such an imperious tone in the response. As for litigating this in the courts, the theory from the response is very very dicey in my opinion.
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on Jun 12, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with sjh's views, with one minor departure.
I don’t think they will appeal beyond the ncaa appellate panel or whatever it’s called. Before they file their civil lawsuit, someone will realize that once they file, then they will be subject to discovery, and they won’t be able to buy their way out. Of course, there will be some like Garrett and Lame and the coach echeteus whose arrogance will demand that the just$c* Fifth Cavalry go ahead and charge, but I’m confident that someone will have the sense to explain that they might draw a judge who saw things through the same ketchup and mustard glasses that they do.
They Are, Indisputably,
the very worst kind of client to have, no doubt about it.
Well-stated, ‘66, and I’m wondering: Can you or did you actually send this as a response to the letter you received?
Love My Bruins
I am going to
Right now I am frantically packing for a trip to CA that starts tomorrow.
I’ll try to form this to a response and send it to Sample when I’m there. What better place from which to send it than Pasadena?
Are you here?
sjh
by Class of 66 on Jun 11, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Still In KS Right Now
It’s difficult to leave a house while trying to get it sold, (I’ve learned), and I am working on a project for CBRE right now—temporary, but full-time until it’s completed.
It’s cool that you’re heading out to CA…are you taking a visit to Jen’s new “home?”
Love My Bruins
by Bruingirl83 on Jun 11, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
If you wouldn't mind, please post what you send him.
It might be a nice gesture to send back your sheepskin from the law center, too.
Actually Brother Fox, I'm Really Proud of My Law Degree and the Education Behind It
As I’ve written before, most of my law school class did not identify with sc, just the Law Center.
I would guess at least a quarter of my classmates were Bruins. And, there were more non-trogans than trogans.
The Law Center went to great lengths to distance itself from the undergraduate school. We started and stopped our semesters on different dates. We had different break and lunch times — so that when we went outside for breaks or onto campus to eat, we rarely mingled with the undergrad’s.
Like many here, I’m glad I went to the Law Center, value my sheepskin, don’t feel that I’m a part of sc, and really don’t belong on their Lame Duck President’s mailing list.
I will send him something in the next few days, and if it differs much from what I’ve posted here, I’ll post it in this thread.
What about the rest of you who went to sc grad schools? You want to join in the fun?
sjh
Good read, Class of 66
The appeal process can take up to 10 months (I can’t remember where I read that), so what are they going to tell recruits? Are they going to tell them (2011 recruits) that SC will face a bowl ban only in the recruits senior year in HS and freshman year in college? That doesn’t sound so bad. However, with SC appealing, SC will have to tell the recruits that there is a chance that the bowl ban extend for their first two years at SUC. That’s half the recruit’s college experience, and would likely seem a lot worse to many potential recruits. Nobody like uncertainty. Therefore, it seems to me that SC would rather get this behind them – turn the uncertainty into certainty. It’s human nature to rest more easily with certainty, and this would likely work in SUC’s favor.
Therefore, I’m finding myself of the opinion that SC will drop the appeal because the cost (uncertainty over the next 4 to 10 months) is more harmful than any likely benefit (a reduction in penalties).
Ten months
Wow. Just think how many more high school kids and potential recruits they can lie to in that amount of time.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
Actually, now we know why Lame has been recruiting 13 year olds
because he can tell them sc will be off probation by then.
sjh
Several months is correct
The Appeals process does take quite a bit of time; Recent appeals of sanctions made by Oklahoma (Bomar) and Memphis (Rose) each took 7 months from the release of the Committee on Infractions report, and the publication of the Appeals committee’s judgment. A similar timeline would have the decision on SC’s appeal coming out next January/February – right around next winter’s signing day.
The delay in imposing sanctions due to the appeal would have its own extra consequences that I will write about later.
formerly bruinhoo
This is a really good point
we actually benefit from the appeal process, because recruiting is hampered longer.
by 75NatChamps on Jun 12, 2010 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions
The NCAA Appeals committee on "abuse of discretion"
It does seem that much of USC’s appeal will be based on an argument that the sanctions are too severe given the facts presented and the resulting violations. As has been discussed, as well as expressly noted by the NCAA
The Infractions Appeals Committee will reverse or modify a ruling of the Committee on Infractions only if one of the following standards is proven:
* The ruling by the Committee on Infractions was clearly contrary to the evidence.
* The individual or school did not actually break NCAA rules.
* There was a procedural error that caused the Committee on Infractions to find a violation of NCAA rules.
* The penalty was excessive and is an abuse of discretion.
The Appeals Committee has developed its own test to determine whether the Committee on Infractions did abuse its discretion in imposing penalties, as articulated in the Appeals Committee’s report following an appeal by Alabama State last year (cited by the committee in its report following Florida State’s recent appeal of sanctions)
formerly bruinhoo
Continued - Appellate standard for Abuse of Discretion
“… We conclude that an abuse of discretion in the imposition if a penalty occurs if the penalty: (1) was not based on a correct legal standard or was based on a misapprehension of the underlying substantive legal principles; (2) was based on a clearly erroneous factual finding; (3) failed to consider and weigh material factors; (4) was based on a clear error of judgment, such that the imposition was arbitrary, capricious, or irrational; or (5) was based in significant part on one or more irrelevant or improper factors.”
[Alabama State University, public Infractions Appeals Committee report (June 30, 2009) Page No. 23
formerly bruinhoo
Arbitrary, Capricious or Irrational
Those of us who have had the challenge of proving an abuse as defined by those terms will tell you that it is very difficult.
It will be more difficult in this case where the panel was so conservative in its findings and so careful so as to not reach beyond the facts.
Most of the trial lawyers around here will agree that when a judge, or panel, sees a clear violation, he, she or it, will get a bit conservative and be very careful so as to not over reach. By being a bit conservative, not going all the way the facts would justify going, they protect their findings and conclusions from attack.
I go back to the parts of the report I read and the entire press conference the panel gave — it will be very , very difficult to prove they over reached so much that the findings were arbitrary, capricious or irrational.
One other point. I read what Garrett said in SF, yesterday. And, have heard all the whining from people like Cheaty. Most of the lawyers around here would counsel our clients to keep their mouths shut. They have nothing to gain by attacking the integrity or quality of the panel or findings. These things are better appealed in a non-personal, fact driven way.
As BruinGirl83 points out — there is nothing worse than a stupid arrogant client. Talk about irrational — sc, watch your own press conferences and read your own words.
sjh
really good points for the appeal
but i think the purpose is to buck up the Trogan faithful. The sanctions won’t get worse no matter what they say, and its unlikely that they will get any reduction on appeal. I think the “Us against the World, that is jealous of us” is consistent with the arrogance of the Trogan faithful. They try to act superior and really don’t care that they cheated to win. I think the bandwagon will stay with the program as long as they keep winning. That’s why the scholarships and, hopefully, recruits turning off on them, will hit em where it hurts. After the last ten years, I will not be reticent to shove it in their face when we win 8 years in a row.
CRN’s wage on a sports pool doesn’t seem like a big deal anymore, does it.
by 75NatChamps on Jun 12, 2010 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Excellent legal advice 66
I don’t practice law but I spend much of my time around lawyers. I have no idea who is providing advice to sc management or what it is. I am wary of holding a lawyer to account for a client’s stupidity.
Your approach—stop the bleeding by starting the probation now and getting this over is first rate advice. Putting this off extends the recruiting disaster and will peel off fan support. The appeal is utterly insane.
I assume the Freeh deal was planned months ago and to me it can be a great move unless he says something they do not want to hear. Freeh is a lawyer so whatever he says is covered by the lawyer client privilege. The big problem though is Freeh is an integrity guy and that could cause problems. Still it can be helpful, particularly if there are downstream issues relating to more currently undisclosed misconduct.
Anyway, 66 if you were advising the Figueroa Evil Empire and it would listen, things would better for them (and college football).
by peggysue69 on Jun 11, 2010 9:22 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
An "integrity guy?"
He’s repping just$c*, so I’m having a tough time buying the “integrity guy” business for starters.
We’ll find out if he really is an “integrity guy” in a week or so. I will give him a week to get a feel for the corporate mentality at just$c*, and about 10 minutes to realize he can’t change it. If he resigns, then I will credit him with being an “integrity guy.” If he continues to rep them after a week, then he’s in it for the money and is willing to turn a blind eye to the truth. And then he’ll be no different than Cheatie or Mikey – they couldn’t see anything wrong, either.
You are right, its on Louie now
You’re right that he can lose his reputation in a week. But his reputation before now is he calls them as he sees them. President Clinton and Freeh did not see eye to eye and the Director candidly stood his ground. Freeh is a former Federal Judge. And I have never seen any evidence he has ever lied cheated or stealed or tolerated those who did. His book is not a sizzling read (you’re a lawyer, what Judge ever wrote anything exciting anyway) but given his arrival on scene it warrants a quick read. He must be held accountable like everybody else.
And the sc press release from our man Todd Dickey said Freeh was brought in to help shape their agent, runner, hanger-on, handler and entourage policies for the future. And they are standing in the need of some serious changes in
those practices and policies—that’s what the NCAA ordered.
by peggysue69 on Jun 11, 2010 10:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You make a good point
They had to do something that at least had the appearance of integrity.
I think we need to keep one thing in mind, and it’s difficult because it’s not a logical notion. If just$c* is caught Institutionally cheating – serious paying the athletes cheating – they will probably get the death penalty. Any rationally thinking person would go so far away from the line that it would be impossible to cross over it.
But bear in mind that we’re dealing with just$c*. Cheating is a way of life. They have always cheated. They’ve been caught before, and they keep cheating. At the height of this latest investigation, McSUV parks his baby’s momma’s car in Cheatie Petie’s parking place. The corporate mentality over there truly things that they can do no wrong. Mikey Garrett believed what he said about everyone wanting to be a trogan.
What that institutionalized mentality and institutionalized arrogance means is that Freeh will be told to make a comprehensive report, which will be used as the basis of how to better hide the cheating. They will never stop cheating and they will never repent. They just want to learn to hide it better. I suppose buying their guys three or four year old cars would be a start.
Louis Freeh is a great choice
If you want to be ineffective. His greatest accomplishment at the FBI was to hinder its attempts to develop a computer system to track its work and keep in touch with its agents. In other words, if you don’t want to track it, categorize it or know about it, Freeh is your man.
I am also still amazed at the tennis long-distance call flap. Have these bozos never heard of Skype? Maybe there was already a Freeh-like person at USC helping their pro-athletes.
Bleeding powderkeg blue and gold for 55 years. Go Bruins!
Thanks to fellow Bruin Brilliance...
… I’m done following this topic.
South Central gets no more of my time.
It’s all just SC being SC til the bitter end. No more. No less.
Like that cat M.Agrippa says on the Conquest Chronicles… “he’s freakin Mike Garrett!”
(In the context of, STFU, Bow Down, Worship, and Hear Ye Him.) Go Bruins!
Excessive penalties
I don’t think the sanctions bestowed on the Trogans are severe enough they got off rather easy with just a two year bowl ban I think it should of been longer and the NCAA should of thrown in a tv ban. I laugh at FUSC admins who are saying they were unaware of any wrong doing by Mayo or Bush, That just makes you look really imcompetent.
I know those kids in the picture
The boy on the right lives in the neighborhood and I have coached him several times. He is at the game with friends from school whose dad is a huge booster.
Disgusting.
I called his dad to give him shit.

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