Spaulding Roundup: More On Lineman Recruiting Assessments & Other UCLA Notes
by Nestor on Jul 8, 2010 6:06 AM PDT
in Football
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PrintIf you have not read Woochifer's fanpost on OL recruiting yet, I strongly recommend it. In it Woochifer provides some very interesting historical perspective on UCLA's OL recruiting by pointing to the specific class of 1985. His post inspired me to do a little digging this am and look up some of the numbers on recent stand out OLs from the Pac-10.
I went ahead and looked up the first team All Pac-10 linemen from last three seasons and then matched them up with their recruiting rankings (stars) according to Scout.com. Here is what the chart looks like for the All Pac-10 teams from 2009, 2008, and 2007:
| Year | Name | Team | Year | Stars |
| 2009 | Chris Marinelli | Stanford | Sr | 2 |
| 2009 | Mike Tepper | California | Sr | 2 |
| 2009 | Jeff Byers | Southern Cal | Sr | 5 |
| 2009 | Charles Brown | Southern Cal | Sr | 4 |
| 2009 | Gregg Peat | Oregon St | Sr | 2 |
| 2009 | Average | 3 | ||
| 2008 | Alex Mack | California | Sr | 2 |
| 2008 | Andy Levitre | Oregon St | Sr | 2 |
| 2008 | Max Unger | Oregon | Sr | 2 |
| 2008 | Eben Britton | Arizona | Jr | 4 |
| 2008 | Kristofer O'Dowd | Southern Cal | Sr | 5 |
| 2008 | Ben Muth | Stanford | Sr | 3 |
| 2008 | Average | 3 | ||
| 2007 | Alex Mack | California | Jr | 2 |
| 2007 | Max Unger | Oregon | Jr | 2 |
| 2007 | Chilo Rachel | Southern Cal | Jr | 3 |
| 2007 | Roy Schuening | Oregon St | Sr | 3 |
| 2007 | Sam Baker | Southern Cal | Sr | 4 |
| 2007 | Mike Pollack | Arizona St | Sr | 3 |
| 2007 | Average | 2.83 | ||
| Total Average | 2.94 |
The easiest conclusion here is that star rankings don't matter as much when it comes to OL recruiting (and it is something that we should all keep in mind as CRN, Norm Chow, and Bob Palcic put their OL class together this recruiting season). There are also other takeaways from the numbers above, which I will get to after the jump (along with some additional notes on UCLA football).
Southern Cal sticks out as the major presence in with all the blue chippers Cheatey Petey brought in with his shady ways over the years. What is really impressive is what Stanford, California and especially Oregon State did with the talent they brought in for their OL. Credit to those programs for having staff, who obviously did their homework when it comes to evaluations on the recruiting trail, and then follow up with great coaching once they were brought into the program. Hoping Bob Palcic will be able to do the same and results from last year were promising.
I would strongly caution anyone from discounting the recruiting evaluations of the professionals from Scout.com (and Rivals.com) just based on OL recruiting. Over the years we have done enough posts to show that most of the times these guys do pretty ok with their evaluations as recruiting rankings often correlate with the aggregate team results (provided those teams are getting good to great coaching).
Sticking with UCLA football, Jon Wilner from the College Hotline made the following observations about Rick Neuheisel's recent actions concerning the three players who were dismissed from the program (at least for this upcoming quarter):
Action: UCLA boots three freshmen after they were arrested for allegedly stealing a woman's purse. Two of the players were four-star recruits, one a three-star prospect.
Reaction I: Strong, swift action ... exactly what you'd expect from Rick Neuheisel. (Did I just type that!?!?)
Reaction II: UCLA's response stands in stark contrast to the messy, inconsistent manner Oregon has handled discipline issues over the past six months.
Reaction III: The Ducks, by the way, just accepted a transfer from Texas (DB Marcus Davis) who was indefinitely suspended by the Longhorns after being arrested for DUI and possession of a controlled substance. But I bet the kid can really play.
Reaction IV: Yes, it seems like every Duck has a rap sheet, like it's a prerequisite for being on the roster, but I don't think that's actually the case.
Hmm, while I agree with the initial assessment, I still think the comparison with Oregon is misplaced. As noted over last few months, we have been generally impressed with how Chip Kelly has handled some of the recent off field situations in Eugene. If anything Kelly's action stood out in remarkable contrast with what Cheatey Petey used to do while he was at Southern Cal.
So if anything, I think Pac-10 writers like Wilner should resist the easy storyline here of a program going out of control, and look a little closer on how Kelly has been handling it. It is not like we are close followers of Chip Kelly and the Ducks. Yet from what we have read to date, the details available point to a coach who is giving everything he has had to deal with their issues and has been genuinely troubled by it. His attitude again has been remarkable different and also a refreshing contrast from the sleazebags from the school "over there."
GO BRUINS.
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It struck me
in looking at these lists that they’re nearly all upperclassmen – which does make sense given that linemen need some time to fill out. Nonetheless, I dug through the three years shown to see how many underclassmen made the all-Pac teams. My lists below include all positions on offense and defense, but not specialists:
2009 1st team: soph Jacquizz Rodgers, soph Rahim Moore
2009 2nd team: frosh LaMichael James, 2 other sophs
2008 1st team: frosh Quizz, 3 sophs (including Brian Price)
2008 2nd team: no underclassmen
2007 1st team: no underclassmen
2007 2nd team: 2 sophs
Given that u$c*’s juniors and seniors are free to leave, their current younger players may take a while to develop into all-league players if they ever do, and any incoming players over the next few years are even further from being juniors or seniors, it looks like they’re even more screwed than we thought – if that’s possible if you’re u$c* to start with, and you have the gift of a “coach” they have.
In the immortal words of the pin I got while an undergrad: Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.
Some observations on the linemen
In high school. big OL’s can succeed with size alone. When they step up to college , they start meeting DL’s and LB’s who are bigger and faster, with D1 talent. Good OL play depends incredibly on technique. It’s no longer just about size. Experience and coaching suddenly become critical to develop good OL skills.
Note that there are only juniors and seniors on those lists, showing the benefit of time and experience.
Also, Cal, Oregon St, and *u$c appear multiple times, suggesting a strong development program and coaching in those programs.
OL wins games. Hopefully, Palcic and crew can teach the techniques, and we can get some guys to stay healthy to get experience, and develop a dominant OL. If we get that, running and passing become easy, and those guys can take full advantage of their skills.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
Good Observation.
I enjoyed this post. I work with athlete’s myself. What most do not realize is there is a lot of variables when it comes to a make up of an athlete. Size, ability, determination, work ethic, skill level, how they have been coached at lower levels, income, what type of student, plus much more.
I read most of the evaluations of the recruiting prognosticators, while doing an excellent job with most. I feel the evaluations are very generic when it comes to 2 OR 3 Star athlete’s. Most athlete’s have not even grown in to their bodies yet. Although they have excelled in their sport, it’s just the starting point for most. For some, they will be using a weightlifting program for the first time. Just think out of all the Pac10 schools who have winning records, how many true freshman are playing? I believe there is a few (Matt Barkley, Andrew luck, Ryan Katz) I’m sure there is more, but not very many. The speed and the competition at the next level is like night and day.
It’s very difficult to evaluate every athlete in every high school in every county. Recruiting stars are a rating system for coach’s to evaluate talent. But, a proven coach will always be superior talent evaluator vs. a rating system.
I’m noticing CRN is going after coach-able, high character athlete’s whom put team first. “If you have great athlete’s who will not be coached, then you have a skilled individual who will destroy a team.”
Coaching & Technique wins at every level!!
It's not surprising
to see that the teams that led the conference in rushing also had many linemen on the All-Pac-10 team. And as you can see, UCLA linemen are notably absent from the last 33 All-Pac-10 teams. It’s not coincidence.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Great follow up
I wrote that post about the 1985 recruiting class because it was just fascinating to see what was written about that group on signing day, and how the pecking order was supposed to shake out. Obviously, things turned out very differently. From that 1985 group and others, I think the takeaway is that a lot can happen with OL recruits, and it seems that compared to other positions, the star rating means less.
Another interesting follow up is the 2001 OL group, which was also a big (literally) highly touted group. There, you had five offensive linemen — all except one were 6’7"+ and 300+ lbs. Three starters emerged out of that class, but overall this was a star-crossed group.
In the 2001 group, Bob Cleary, Ed Blanton, and Mike McCloskey wound up as starters, and IIRC, only McCloskey garnered any conference honors. Colin Barker got injured and took medical retirement, while Matt Mosebar quit football altogether after two years.
Bob Cleary was the most highly touted recruit, but he ended up as a part-time starter. McCloskey was the least heralded recruit, but ended up as the most productive player. Yet, he wound up not playing his senior year due to a medical ailment. So, out of five OL recruits, only one would be starting full-time by the end of their senior years.
1985 Recruits
Enjoyed this and Woochifer’s fanpost that had a listing of the 1985 signees; one of them that included Bill Paige from Wheat Ridge, Colorado who started on the OL in his senior year (1988). I became acquainted with Bill, ironically enough, a week after the heart-breaking 17-13 loss to USC in 1987 that knocked us out of the Rose Bowl and put the dastardly Trogans in instead. I was living in the Denver area at the time and my sister-in-law just happened to work at the same place that Bill’s mother did. She told Bill’s Mom that I was a die-hard UCLA fan and was gracious enough to invite me up to meet and talk with Bill the following weekend (during Thanksgiving). Bill was such a great guy to talk to although, as you can imagine, he was still hurting mightily from the loss to USC a mere week before. Needless to say, it was an awesome experience for me to get to meet him and talk to him.
Los Angeles Rams and the UCLA Bruins!!!!!
by Minnesota Bruinfan on Jul 8, 2010 10:35 AM PDT reply actions
Great story
I also knew Bill when I was a student. Good guy, and I could say that for most of the others that I knew in that 1985 recruiting class. He was actually a redshirt junior starter during that 1988 season. Much of the O-line remained intact for the following season (the disastrous 1989 campaign with freshman QB Bret Johnson), and Bill was one of the carryover senior starters. Bill was also the starting long snapper, and his final play was that failed field goal attempt (bounced off the front goal post) that ended the 1989 SC game in a 10-10 tie. I still remember the picture in the Daily Bruin of Bill sitting on the field dejectedly after that field goal missed. So close …
Was that Brad Daluiso or Alfred Vilasco?
Who missed that kick? Still remember it watching it as a high school student (and getting my heart ripped out). Aaaagh.
That was Velasco
Daluiso’s stronger leg would have nailed it from 47 yards out. Velasco was accurate, but he didn’t have great range. If you recall, that kick was dead center and the ball just hit the crossbar squarely and bounced back. If it had rotated just a few inches in either direction, the bounce would have put the ball through the uprights.
The key play in that series was when Shawn Wills lost two yards on a running play to position the ball more towards the middle of the field. That deep pass to Scott Miller had already put the ball within Velasco’s range.
Yup
Shawn Wills. Sigh. That was such a safe call by Donahue. Aaah. That season was such a mess from the beginning. IIRC we also lost a heart breaker against Michigan at the Rose Bowl.
Started with the UT Cobb-Webb debacle and went south from there
That 1989 season opened with the defense getting run completely over by Tennessee at the Rose Bowl. I thought that the Michigan game (which turned on a freak onside kick bounce) started the tailspin, but UCLA bounced back to beat Cal and ASU the next two games. The real turning point in that season was the blowout loss to UA, where the team just didn’t show up, and that was followed up by three straight close losses. After another bad loss against Oregon, I thought the SC game would be a blowout until I went to the noon rally during Beat $C week and heard Frank Cornish take the mike. He pumped everybody up and indicated that if anything, the team was not going to lie down against SC.
To be fair, the Wills play came after that bomb from Johnson to Miller that set the offense up in field goal range. The safe play would have been milk the clock before that deep pass play to preserve the tie.
You guys are killing me
That Michigan game was my 1st ever as a UCLA student. Woochifer you said it perfectly, I still to this day have not see a ball do that. As for the SC game that year we were so trashed and our seats were so bad we actually thought he made it.
The Tennessee game
I was in utter disbelief. That was my second year as a UCLA fan. I couldn’t believe that we could get worked so bad in the first game of the season.
Man Brett Johnson, what a freaking disaster he was. Funny thing about Wills, he ended up being a campus police. One of the nicest guys I met while I was a student.
Yep
Wills also played for the Bruin baseball team, and IIRC was a better player on the diamond than the gridiron.
Bret Johnson was just the wrong QB for a prostyle offense. I saw the guy play once in high school, and he was unstoppable at that level — threw for 2,000+ yards and ran for 1,000+ yards three straight years, won two CIF titles, and was the undisputed leader of those teams (cocky SOB, but always backed it up). The guy was on everybody’s recruiting radar and it was considered a huge coup when he signed with UCLA. Here’s the LA Times’ original signing day piece:
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-02-11/sports/sp-42299_1_city-high-school
In retrospect, Johnson might have been an All-American if he had gone to a place like Arizona that ran an option offense.
But, he and his dad Bob Johnson got the idea that he was a future NFL QB, and wanted to play in a prostyle offense for college. Problem is that while he had decent mobility, he did not have a great arm and was probably shorter than his listed 6’0" height. I also read before that his cockiness that played well in high school was not a good fit for a UCLA team returning a veteran offensive line used to the more quietly confident (and supremely skilled) Troy Aikman.
Looking through the old LA Times write ups, it looks like the strong-armed sophomore Jim Bonds was in the lead for the starting position during spring ball, but Johnson won the starting job when Bonds threw three interceptions in the fall scrimmage. The rest is history, as Bonds regained the starting job during spring ball (which he lost to Tommy Maddox not long after the 1990 season began), which led to Johnson transferring.
From what I can remember
He just didn’t have ‘it’. He would lose his composure so fast when things went south. You are right about his arm strength but more importantly imo he didn’t have the mindset to be a pro style qb, which involves surveying, making right reads and decisions.
He also didn’t have the fighter mentality either. He ended up being a bust at Michigan State to no one’s surprise in Westwood.
I remember watching Maddox’s first appearance against Stanford. Everyone knew it. The kid had ‘it’. Iirc we won the game too.
by Nestor on Jul 8, 2010 3:11 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yup
He came in at halftime down 17-0, I think, and we won the game on a last second field goal.
And I hope this is the LAST time that Bret Johnson’s name ever appears around here again.
greg in denver - UCLA guy for life
I thought he came back and played basketball
using a middle-European name.
Wrong system
If you saw him in high school, he definitely had that “it” quality. Of course, he didn’t face much adversity at that level either, because he was playing in a powerhouse program surrounded by D-1 prospects. I just think that at both UCLA and Michigan State, he was playing in the wrong system for his skill set.
It also didn’t help that from what I’ve heard, a lot of the upperclassmen didn’t like his act. It seemed that he had an attitude of entitlement, which I would guess didn’t rub well with OC Homer Smith (an offensive guru, but also an old school guy who coached at West Point) when he was brought back into the program in 1990 and promptly opened up the QB position to competition.
Johnson wasn’t too thrilled with that, and even less thrilled when Bonds was named the starter during spring ball. In retrospect, he should have toughed it out because Bonds only lasted a game and a half before getting yanked. At MSU, he got stuck behind Jim Miller, another strong-armed pro prospect who wound up playing 11 years in the NFL.
Maddox turned out to be the best QB of the bunch, but he definitely had his share of rough patches during that freshman year. Had Johnson been the first one off the bench, who knows how that year might have turned out. If anything, Smith knew how to call the right plays for whoever was playing QB.
I Stand Corrected...
You’re right about Bill being red-shirted and also being a starter on the 1989 team as well. Oh, how I remember having my guts spilled out when that damn FG attempt by Velasco had the belly of the ball hit squarely on the crossbar – and bounce way back out. Arrrrrrrrgggggghhhh.
Los Angeles Rams and the UCLA Bruins!!!!!
by Minnesota Bruinfan on Jul 8, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Great point about Oline and star ratings
I often forget that the the Line is the position that you are recruiting primarily on potential. There are very very few lineman who are ready to play D1 at 18. You are recruiting their projected physical growth and weight gain, as well as athletic ability and technique. A kid could be a great lineman in high school, but if he’s not still growing, he’s probably not gonna be much in college. Conversely, a kid who is still growing and developing may be awkward in high school, and unpolished, but could develop really, really well.
I think stars are most accurate with skill positions and less accurate with positions that require bulk .
by silverlakebruin on Jul 8, 2010 11:38 AM PDT reply actions
Exactly
Jonathan Ogden is now regarded as one of the greatest OL players of all time, but he didn’t develop into THE Jonathan Ogden until his junior year. He played as a true freshman, but was still quite raw and not nearly the dominant player he would later become. IIRC, he was a highly regarded recruit, but was not a first tier All-American type.
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