A Different Take on the Stanford Game
My take on the Stanford game is very different from what seems to be the near consensus opinion on Bruins Nation (although it isn't that different form VeniceBruin's fanpost), and I expect it will get a good deal of negative reaction. What I see as missing in much of the commentary here is any sense of context. This includes two things: looking at our team from the perspective of where we are coming from and then what I call the classic sports fallacy which is that athletic performance is a function of what your team does while missing the key role that your opponent plays. The first of these points applies mostly to the offense and the second to the defense.
When CRN came here our offense was in a very sorry state. We had a terrible offensive line and a third string quarterback, and we could neither run nor pass effectively. The next year we had a freshman quarterback and an offensive line that was terrible in pass protection. Then last year we finally got a pretty decent running game going, but we still couldn't pass and were one dimensional. The biggest problem all along has been our offense. We play in a conference against teams that put up a lot of points, and we were handicapped by an offense that could not match this. Our offense looked much improved this year after the Houston game, but some here at Bruins Nation said that it was premature to conclude too much from this, since Houston was not a good defensive team. They said the same thing after the Oregon St. game, and in both cases they were absolutely right. We wouldn't really know until we played against a really good defensive team if the offenses's improvement was for real.
Well now we know. Last night we played one of the best defensive teams in the country, and we were able to move the ball on them. We had three really nice scoring drives and a long drive to open the game that we didn't score on. And we did this with a nice balanced attack which featured more yards passing than running. In addition our offense was able to move the ball on Texas too. At one point starting late in the first half of that game and going into the second half we had four scoring drives in a row resulting in two touchdowns and two field goals. If anyone has noticed Texas is now ranked #10 in the coach's poll. So those urging caution about the apparent improvement of our offense against weak opponents were absolutely correct to do so, but the verdict is now in. Our offense which has been our greatest liability is clearly capable of moving the ball against top 5 and top 10 teams, while it now features a credible passing component that had been missing up until now.
However some people not only are not acknowledging that our offense is significantly improved but are even spinning it to mean that this shows we had the talent all along, and this only goes to show how bad the coaching is. So now even if our team shows marked improvement that just proves how bad the coaching staff is for not fully developing it sooner? Talk about circular reasoning. The Stanford game shows that we are a much improved offensive football team right now, and that is according to the very reasonable criteria set forth here at Bruins Nation of waiting to see if our offense can perform against a very good defensive team. And even if someone can make an argument that they should have arrived at this point sooner why is that relevant now? Our offense is in fact much improved now, and that is what counts.
The other big criticism of the offense has been that the play calling has been too conservative. Well perhaps it has been, but I think against Stanford the play calling was anything but conservative. There was a lot more passing and a really good balance between running and passing. There was even a surprise onsides kick. Yet this has been mostly overlooked by some here because on our first drive we ran four straight running plays from inside the five, and this conservative play calling is seen as having cost us a touchdown and depriving us of the momentum we needed to have a chance of winning the game. It's almost taken as a given that if we would have passed in that situation we would have scored. How does anyone know that? Play calling is a matter of probabilities and in that situation given that our strength has been in the running game it was reasonable to conclude that the best chance of scoring was to run the ball four times if necessary. The fact that we didn't score doesn't mean it was the wrong call. Running may have given us the highest probability of scoring, but it doesn't guarantee a score. Passing the ball inside the five is a much riskier proposition. There ís very little space to work with which makes an interception more likely. However even more likely is a quarterback sack which effectively takes away the run option on the next two plays with the likely result being a field goal. I remember a game last year at home where we got a first and goal inside the five. Norm Chow called a quarterback roll out, and a defender got through and sacked Brehaut for about a five yard loss. That effectively took away the run and dictated two pass plays resulting in two incomplete passes in the end zone and a field goal. I remember thinking that was a terrible call at that time. And some people are looking at this one series with hindsight and saying that it was the wrong call while making the unwarranted assumption that we would have scored if we would have passed along with the unwarranted assumption that we should have known in advance that we wouldn't score on four running plays inside the five. They are then seeing this as a microcosm of the whole game as if the problem is again conservative play calling. But this was just one series of downs which was not representative of the whole game and which can be seen as a credible decision given the time and situation in which it was made. The truth is that we learned in this game that we now have an offense that is for real and which is capable of moving the ball on just about anyone. And we did this with a balanced attack that is not conservative. As for not scoring on that first drive why not give credit where it is due to the Stanford defense. Or are all great goal line stands the result of overly conservative play calling on the part of the offense?
I think that probably the main reason that the big improvement on offense is not being fully recognized is because the defense looked so bad. And there is no question that the defense does seem to have gotten worse from last year. They certainly have not lived up to expectations. I don't know why the expectations were so high before the season started, but they were apparently based more on hype than on reality. I think one possible factor that I haven't heard anyone mention is that we may have had better players last year and the year before at key positions. We had some really dominant players like Akeem Ayers and Rahim Moore last year along with Brian Price and Alterraun Verner the year before. These have all turned out to be elite NFL players, and players like Akeem Ayers and Brian Price could dominant the line of scrimmage. We don't have anyone like that this year, and I think that may be a factor.
However I don't think the defense is really as bad as they may have looked yesterday. That ís where the sports fallacy of not recognizing the role of your opponent comes into play. Over the last three years Stanford has had one of the premier offensive lines in college football and in addition they have the most talented college quarterback since Peyton Manning. They are a great offensive team who is going to put around 40 points on almost anyone, and they will make just about any defense look really bad. In fact can anyone name a defense that hasn't looked bad against Stanford? How about Pete Carroll's last SC team that gave up 55 points at home in the Coliseum? How about last year's Cal defense that held Oregon to 15 points but then shortly after lost 38-0 to Stanford. Or what about 11th ranked Virginia Tech who lost 40-12 to Stanford in last year's Orange Bowl? And like yesterday Stanford in that game too had a 99 yard scoring drive. The only difference is that they scored in two plays. First there was a 55 yard run through a huge hole in the line, and then on the next play on play action Luck threw deep and hit a receiver for a touchdown who had beaten the nearest defender by about fifteen yards. And doesn't everyone think that Frank Beamer is a very good defensive coach? Well if you went by that game you would think that Frank Beamer can't coach defense at all. The only way that anyone is going to beat this Stanford team is to outscore them which is going to be very difficult, because their defense is so good. Maybe a top notch defensive team like Alabama or LSU might slow them down some, but I even doubt that.
I guess a lot of this comes down to where our expectations are at this point. If you think that by now we should be national contenders then the coaching staff has failed miserably. If you think that we should now be a top 25 team well we're not there yet. And if you want to use Jim Harbaugh who probably engineered the greatest turn around in the last 50 years in college football as the standard of comparison then our coaching staff is an abysmal failure, but so is almost everyone else. However if the expectations are that we are making significant progress then I think there is still reason for optimism, because our offense which has been our weak link is clearly much improved, and if our defense can improve we'll be a good football team. I think a more realistic comparison would be to Dennis Erickson. He was a coach with a proven record winning a national championship at Miami and then coaching an Oregon St. team that was superior to any of Mike Riley's teams. However his Arizona St. teams have been mostly mediocre and not until now in his fifth season do they finally appear to be breaking out. We'll just have to see how the rest of the season goes.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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We scored 19 freaking points
You are seriously celebrating an offensive development that resulted in 19 points? After posting a whopping 27 on Oregon State, and 34 on Houston, which just gave up 42 to Utep? And we “moved the ball” on Texas for all of 21 points.
I find it strange that every single so-called “argument from context” that appears here actually relies on little irrelevant data points picked from here and there and thrown together illogically. It is absolutely meaningless to say that 19 points is a lot “in the context” of the zero points we scored against Stanford last year, or of our horrid offense of the previous 3 years. “Moving the ball” when you’re down big to garner a few yards and points doesn’t mean much “in the context” of the rest of college football, which scores far more points in a far more dynamic way than we do.
Or to point to a few pass plays and a pointless onside kick as proof against conservatism, when you still have a large chunk of our offense relying on the running prowess of Richard Brehaut, at the expense of so many playmakers on the team. Stanford’s defense is not incredibly good. They have a high ranking from a largely weak schedule so far, but they are not very athletic and certainly not more so than our offense (or defense). And their vaunted OL is smaller than ours. They lost a lot of players from last year and are not as good. It was clear to everyone watching including the players that they weren’t more talented than we are, and that’s the most important context, not how our previous worse underachievement should somehow elevate the rating of our current slightly better underachievement.
He also conveninently ignores ...
… piles of datapoints that have been put up setting the expectations for this season. He ignores post after posts that we have written discussing and laying out the talent of this team.
What is also amusing is that he completely ignores how this community of all places have gone out of it was to be fair to Coach Rick Neuheisel wrt to setting expectations, while every other site on the internet were just pushing a standard “hot seat” narrative.
The irony is the post above is classic example of drivel with baseless context just for the sake of shilling for an embattled coaching staff.
Another point about "context"
It seems that some people treat prior underachievement as a “context” to lower expectations.
When in fact, the context of prior underachievement should only raise expectations…because now there is a burden of proof to show that the prior underachievement was an aberration. Kyle Whittingham was on the hot seat going into his 3rd year — and he went undefeated. If he only 7 or 8 games, I bet would’ve been canned. Once you’ve underachieved, the burden is on you as a coach to overachieve to make up for it.
UCLA is so prone to this mentality. As if Lavin’s own failures somehow lowered the ultimate potential of UCLA bball, or as if Donahue’s underachieving culture taken to an apex by his disciples is supposed to make us forget the obvious potential of our program in this “mecca.”
Nice post Roger. I agree 100%. Sadly you are not going to get a lot of support on here, haha. I thought our offense looked great throughout the night. Seemed like they were finally digging into the playbook and implementing more looks. LOVED the onside kick (although executed poorly). I really do wish that on that first drive we would have tried the fly sweep to jordan james, it’s extremely hard to defend the edges when you are expecting the rush up the middle. I know it would have worked perfect.
I agree with a lot of this Roger, but...
I think we can find a lot of positives from Saturday’s game, and that if we play our “What if…” game, that we can make a case that the game was closer than the score. But that game is imagination and not reality. Reality is another 20+ point loss in our coach’s 4th year. I think Brehaut was more consistent and confident running the offense, but the glaring errors in the special teams and the persistent failure of the defense temper any real long term hope for me. I agree with bluebland above when he says Stanford wasn’t more talented than us (I’d say their QB and corps of TE’s are better on paper, but that’s it) but they are a far better team now. They are better prepared, more motivated, more confident, and take the field knowing they are a top 10 team. My issue is that our team is so far away from that level from a preparation and execution standpoint that I don’t believe our current staff is going to get there. Neu has had more than enough time to show some progress. The gains on the offense this year aren’t enough to justify the effort. We should be much further along than we are.
greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com
Luck?
I dunno, Luck looked pretty darn talented. Having ur QB as the most skilled player on ur team has got to be a big advantage.
by robotchampion on Oct 4, 2011 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
You have a lot of nerve
You have a lot of nerve to come here and attack essentially the frontpage using the good ole “some people” tactic by accusing us of spinning. You completley ignore the context of how even using the detailed criterias we set out in our “Eye Test” the Stanford game didn’t represent much progress.
Second, you are out of line by suggesting this community is talking about the Stanford game “out of context” without taking into account how we have painstakingly discussed every angle of this football team through this off-season, by exploring every details in our rosters and angles to our matchups.
Frankly, if not for your previous posts, we would have taken this post down. It is out of context and filled with unfair cheap shots against the frontpagers and the majority of this community. You should consider apologizing for this kind of cheap shots. If you put up another post like this cheapshotting this community, you will not blog here again.
Thanks.
Reply to Nestor
Nestor,
First perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in the points I was making in my fanpost and there might have been some confusion about what I meant by “context”.
I was simply making the following points:
1. I thought that in the context of where our offense has been this game represented a real and significant improvement especially since Stanford is a good defensive team.
2. To consider the context of whom we were playing in that I see Stanford as a national championship caliber team, and it’s hard to judge our defensive performance because they make every defense look really bad.
3. That I didn’t think the play calling was conservative in this game, and that to say so because of one series of downs inside the 5 yard line early in the game was an unwarranted generalization, and also that I think there was a justifiable rationale for running the ball in that situation at that time.
4. By spin I was referring to only one specific thing. I had read some posts where people were admitting that our offense looked much better but they were spinning this in a negative way by saying it showed how much talent we have and how bad the coaching staff is. By this kind of logic the better the team plays the worse it makes the coaching staff look.
I read numerous posts by different people after the Stanford game and many of them were taking these positions particularly on the 3rd and 4th points that I disagreed with. Since I’m disagreeing with the opinions of some of the posts on this website I referred to “some people”. I was not referring personally to anyone. You seem to think that I had specific people in mind that I was specifically attacking in some underhanded way without having to name them. I enjoy reading this website but don’t have that much time to do so, so I don’t even know most of the names on the website. I know your name, and Ryan’s because he writes some very good technical articles and Mexi because he has responded to a lot of my posts and a few others. And of course people don’t use their actual names. I just read several posts, and I disagreed with the positions taken and was not associating them with anyone.
I’m not sure how else I might have stated this. Should I have looked up all the posts and written down all the names of the people I disagreed with? That would be very cumbersome and totally unnecessary, because I was disagreeing with the opinions, and there was nothing personal about it.
Do you not want to have dissenting opinions on Bruins Nation? It certainly discourages one to do so when the moderator of the website comes on and without addressing the points made above insultingly dismisses them as “drivel with baseless context” while telling you that you are “shilling” for the coaching staff. I’m not in fact shilling for anyone. I am just very cautious about going the route of getting a new coach, because it’s like starting all over again and might be a very long process that ultimately leads nowhere. For that reason I want to give this coach a last chance to succeed even though I too have serious doubts at this point. And then when I disagree with what might be a majority opinion here I should apologize to the people here simply because I disagree with them?
Nestor, frankly I’m surprised by your response, although I guess it makes sense if you thought I was personally attacking people in some indirect underhanded way. If so then there is a basic misunderstanding, because I wasn’t. You have always been extremely fair with me. You have taken some of my fanposts and featured them on the frontpage. And when I told you about my experience with coach Wooden after I had been mugged you asked me to send pictures and made it into a great feature article. So you have always been very gracious and fair to me, and I have always really appreciated that. If there is a better way for me to express a disagreement I might have with people on the website so that it isn’t misconstrued as a personal attack please give me some kind of guideline and I will be happy to abide by that.
Thanks
I appreciate your perspective
As we have mentioned BN has more than enough room for opinions that disagree with what we are discussion on frontpage. But you admitted yourself that you offered up your thoughts merely just by scanning the frontpage and the thoughts expressed in this community.
We ask if you are going to make general assertions about this community by using the “some say” technique (which we don’t like as it is a lazy technique for tradmed journos to offer up unsupported speculation) you better source it properly and identify who you are disagreeing with.
This is not a forum like the LA Times LTE section. This is different. If you are going to participate you need to do it by making sure you are well read on the conversations, discussions that is going on throughout this forum. That way you will get deference and respect for you are contributing to the discussion.
Otherwise, if you are going to make general assertions without substantiating it, you will get hard pushback.
The loss against Stanford was not close. Stanford without breaking a sweat went up 17-0 and was never challenged in that game. We have documented in posts after posts how Bruins have more than enough talent to emerge as one of the top teams in the Pac-12 and be competitive in this kind of games. We laid out in detail specific criterias – not just standard unit by unit grading we see elsewhere – we are going to use to judge our teams’ performances. Bruins underachieved if not downright failed in all those criterias.
So yes – ignoring that body of work – when you come here leveling charges of discussions on BN without context – you will get pushback. It’s not about the strawman about not allowing dissenting opinions. It is about pushing back opinions that are not well founded based on the overwhelming body of work (and context) that has been offered up on BN.
Thanks.
Great idea
please give me some kind of guideline and I will be happy to abide by that
My favorite sports blog, DodgerThoughts by Jon Weisman, has established rules in the side bar:
Thank You For Not . . .
1) using profanity or any euphemisms for profanity
2) personally attacking other commenters
3) baiting other commenters
4) arguing for the sake of arguing
5) discussing politics
6) using hyperbole when something less will suffice
7) using sarcasm in a way that can be misinterpreted negatively
8) making the same point over and over again
9) typing “no-hitter” or “perfect game” to describe either in progress
10) being annoyed by the existence of this list
11) commenting under the obvious influence
12) claiming your opinion isn’t allowed when it’s just being disagreed with
Perhaps, the BN power trust could devise some rules/suggestions for the community?
To make it easy
Go here.
It’s in the left column on the front page, located under the About Us heading.
greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com
Thanks a million!
I’ve known about the guidelines buried in the About Us section, but I was thinking more like a featured “Commenting Commandments” to avoid upsetting the moderators’ sensibilities. Tone is very difficult to discern through text, and misunderstandings should be mitigated.
On the bright side....
Two interesting quotes from the LA Times:
>>The Cardinal, though, with 12 straight wins, has the longest winning streak in major-college football.
The team has not been challenged by an opponent since a 17-13 win at Arizona State last Nov. 13.
Stanford has won seven games since by 48-14, 38-0, 40-12, 57-3, 44-14, 37-10 and 45-19.<<
In other words, UCLA scored more against Stanford than any other oppornent since last Nov. 13.
>>UCLA’s three defeats have come against schools that are a combined 13-0 with an average USA Today poll ranking of 13.333.<<
Roger, I agree we played well and the play calling was better.
But, that does not change the fact that this team has been poorly developed. I stated earlier, that if we played this way in our previous games we would be 4-0 going into this game. We would also more than likely put up a better performance against Stanford. It’s true that most of us object to losing more than anything else, and everything else is Monday morning QBing. That doesn’t change the fact that we’ve played conservatively and mis-used talent up until now. And, when you do that, it makes it very hard for that talent to come out and execute against a very good opponent. Case in point the pass to Carroll that hit the DB in the ass. It didn’t look like a play Carroll has a firm handle on. Maybe they do run it ad nauseaum in practice, but I wager that if he saw it more often in actual games, he would have been better prepared to make adjustments during the Stanford game.
The best thing you can do for your children is to love their mother. John Wooden
I disagree that we played well or that the play calling was better
This team was mentally unprepared, certain parts of the team totally wiffed on fundamental football skills (I can’t count the number of times I saw a UCLA defender bounced off a Stanford player… not to mention missed PATs..) As for play calling, I think any improvement for the whole game was wiped out by predicable playcalling, embodied by the end of that first drive. I was sitting in the UCLA section and the old dude next to me was kept remarking on the blandness of the plays “oh, another run up the middle – great”
Let's just cool down the over-the-top rhetoric
“Old dude next to me.” Harrumph. Why you young whipper snapper ….
BTW - SF Chronicle's Stanford Beat writer's Monday AM story
Titled “”http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/02/SPCP1LCIHL.DTL" target="new">Stanford’s defense has work to do".
The Stanford D was the best that we have played against so far, and given the sorry state of the Pac-12 South, likely the best that we will face. Still, especially without Skov, it is not an elite defense. Fundamentally sound (compared to our unit, at least) and hard working, but the fear is that they are going to be badly exposed by Oregon. The good thing for the Cardinal is that aside from the Ducks (and whoever they play in their likely BCS bowl game), they don’t play an opponent with an offense able to keep pace with Luck and Co.
formerly bruinhoo
Thanks Roger
I appreciate your optimism. In an enterprise as complex as college football hindsight is always 20/20. But truth is, the ebbs and flows of this game make it so hard to manage once the game begins. We had two major turning points. The first was the failure of the first drive. But as a team, I thought we fought back and actually began to work our way back into a position to make a statement in the 2nd half. The second was Embree’s embarrassing botch of a play. For a guy who fair catches 99% of the time what was he thinking? That truly broke the morale of the defensive unit and the game was done right there. If RN has learned anything from this game its that TE isn’t all that he led us to believe. And that Jordan James should be back there for all punt returns.
If anything, your post just gives bruinsnation diversity of opinion which in any world represents honest and true perspective. I would hope that your voice or any other’s would never be deleted or removed just because it’s opinion differs from others. Unless you were truly offensive or rude because in the end, bruinsnation is a family blog.
Peace…
Golden Mean Fallacy
Diversity of opinion does not necessarily get you closer to the truth, much less honesty.
Best example
“Yahoo Questions,” in which someone asks a question, and then out of all sorts of answers, the person asking the question selects the answer he or she thinks is correct. If I ask how much two plus two equals, and get a great diversity of answers, the fact that I choose both “Five” and “Yellowstone National Park” as being equally correct does not, as Ty points out, get me closer to the truth or to honesty.
I'm not so sure that all hindsight is 20-20
A lot of people looked at the same game and came to different conclusions. I think my vision is pretty good, especially since my view of the game wasn’t all that good. My view of the scoreboard was just fine, however. As it has been for the last 42 games. I’m not going to say what I conclude about the last 42 games (at least not for the balance of the day).
Let’s just say that your premise about the verbal acuity of hindsight has been challenged, and the referee is heading for the booth.
Great Post
Thanks for writing this post RogerT. I like seeing dissenting point of views. Presenting an alternative argument does not, in my opinion, take down the community.
As long as we respect each other in our statements then exploring points both accepted and contrary can only build community (in my opinion).
It'd be nice if all of the "dissenting views" were backed up with the same rigor
As those the views they are dissenting from. That’s what it takes for these “alternate views” to be constructive and not just brain dead noise. Unfortunately, far more often the dissenting views are something more along the lines of “HURR DURR BN SO NEGATIVE SUPPORT THE TEAM SUPPORT THE COACH DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR” or some other equally inane proclamation wherein the dissenter completely ignores the body of evidence built up here and assumes just because they have an opinion that it deserves to be shared.
And then they whine about tone or how the rest of us treat that kind of stupidity and then we ban them.

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