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The Morning After, Part 6: Washington State

Nelson Rosario goes high to pull in this catch and to buy Rick Neuheisel another week.  (Photo by Stephen Dunn/Getty Images)

If you win in a no-win situation, is it still really a win?

I don't really know what to make of last night's game, except that I wish we'd play more afternoon games so I'm not up until 3am trying to find some post game thoughts.  Usually I have some sort of inspiration (good or bad) when watching our team and writing about them comes easily.  But tonight there wasn't much there.  There is nothing particularly motivating about beating the Cougars.  WSU has won more games this season than they have in the last two seasons - combined.  That, in today's day and age, gives Wazzuu fans the green light to believe they are really something different that what they are.  But that doesn't make the victory over them any more satisfying 

The sad part is that if the Cougars had bothered to score a touchdown on any of their first half excursions into the red zone instead of having that kicker in the unfortunately tight uniform knock home threes, then probably this conversation is entirely different.  And though I have never ever wanted U.C.L.A. to lose, sometimes you feel the pain is coming and you just want to get it over with.  Kinda like going to the dentist. 

Then, of course, there is the way the team looks and what the "Eye Test" tells us.  And though the results will be skewed by yesterday's final score, we had a lot easier test this week than we did last week, and I'm not convinved that we didn't play better overall last week.  But I'm the optimist who sees a lot more room in the passion bucket and would really like to see it full and running over.

On the other hand,

Star-divide

the record says it is a win. And when you look at everyone's records together, there's a funny thing.  In the pretty average Pac-12 South, ASU sits on top at 3-0.  That's not the funny thing.  Everyone not named Herbstreit expected this, so this isn't a surprise.  On the other end from ASU, all grouped together at the bottom to conserve warmth and dignity are 3 schools with zeroes in their Pac-12 win column.  We expected Colorado to struggle as they begin to re-rebuild.  Utah apparently isn't as great as they told us they were.  (Oh, that's right...Mountain West).  And Arizona surprisingly is 0-4 in conference after OSU got them.  That's right, OSU.  Of course there is that place that doesn't count (figuratively speaking.  Well, and literally, too). And in between those ends, there is U.C.L.A. at 2-1, one game back of the Sun Devils.  And we get to play them sometime, too.

So if it's printed on the ESPN website, then it at least has a chance of being true.  If it really counts, the team should get some credit for a win that came despite a fair amount of adversity, including yet another injury to the quarterback..  And with conference victories so scarce around here, we shouldn't reject it. 

Despite that, we will keep our eyes on the prize.  We have laid out our expectations for Rick Neuheisel's team and what it will take to earn any additional time in Westwood.  Yesterday's game was a step along that pathway.  Not a huge giant stride, but it step moving toward the target. 

So, to answer the question, is it still a win, my answer is yes.  But Neu needs 5 more wins to get beyond this season, and today's was only the next step. Survive and advance (that's an NCAA Tournament reference for you, Dominic Artis.  We play basketball in March.  Oregon doesn't).  Neuheisel bought himself another week.  Actually it's 11 days.  What a bargain.  Let's see what he does with it.

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Kevin Prince, more than did his part. Cudos and Thanks.

However, with bye week upon us, I believe it’s time for the Hundley Era to begin with his first start in two weeks. Why? 1) He was specifically recruited to run our offense now; 2) He’s 100% healthy; 3) Better to learn the ropes with the balance of this year as opposed to waiting until September to figure out if he, in fact, has “got it” or not; 4) We need a capable back-up always on deck (Prince at this point), 5) We still have a shot at the Pac-12 South Division title (Rick’s goal), 6) It’s not like Hundley plans to be with us for 4 years, 7) If he sucks – so what. We suck. We’ll know. Rick will certainly be gone. And Spring ball will be a super hot QB competiton to be the first starter of the Mike Leech Quarterback Mecca Era. Get Hundley ready for the zero-conference-win-Wildcats.

U-C-L-A Fight, Fight, Fight! Go Bruins!
Go Lakers! Go Dodgers! Go Angels!

by Bruins78 on Oct 9, 2011 6:19 AM PDT reply actions  

Sounds good to me!

The best thing you can do for your children is to love their mother. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Oct 9, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

As Vin Scully says -

“It looks like a line drive in the box score.”

The Bruins just held the #10 scoring team in the nation 19 points below their average. They held the 9th ranked passing offense almost 100 yards below their average. And they did so with a beat up secondary.

It was an ugly, draining, frustrating victory. I hate watching a team convert 11-20 third downs, and 1-1 on fourth. It is fortunate that the defense rose/WSU stalled inside the 10. I hate seeing missed tackles, deep corners, and stupid personal foul calls, but in the end it’s still a W.

Hopefully with a week off, UCLA can do what they have had extreme trouble doing of late – win on the road.

by sam_in_hb on Oct 9, 2011 6:50 AM PDT reply actions  

I'd be more impressed by the whole "#10 scoring team in the nation" thing

If they had done it by playing teams that were better than a combined 7-15 on the year not including us and including FCS Idaho State. SDSU romped on them far more convincingly than we did, handing them their other loss. Yeah, San Diego State. This is why we use the eye test. We know people will try to come on here and cherry pick stats to distort reality by not including any kind of context.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, SDSU is a better team than UCLA right now.

They went to a bowl game last year. They have an experienced QB. Their head coach last season was cherry picked to lead a major college power.

Of course we have better athletes, so it comes down to coaching. This staff willl either get it done in the coming weeks or not.

by orlandobruin on Oct 9, 2011 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds like we're saying the same thing

The current state of affairs is unacceptable from a multitude of angles. Being an objectively worse team than SDSU is one of them, as shown by their handling of a terrible common opponent that we struggled with.

The main point, however, is to debunk this win-is-a-win-and-nothing-else-matters mentality when you’re going up against one of the worst teams on our schedule. It’s also dishonest or lazy to use a cherry picked stat as justification for that mentality when the context clearly shows that even that stat is blown out of proportion.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I take the win-is-a-win approach . . .

. . . for conference games on the road (i.e., OSU).

Not for games at the Rose Bowl against the likes of SJSU and WSU.

That having been said, I am somewhat pleased that the team showed some grit in coming back after so many injuries yesterday.

Still not acceptable though. The Bruins need to keep winning.

by orlandobruin on Oct 9, 2011 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Even OSU was a must win

Road game or not. That’s what happens when you lose to an FCS team at home.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you win in a no-win situation, is it still really a win?

I was trying to respond to gbruin’s thoughts, not cherry pick stats. Like all fans, I am disappointed with the results of the last 10 years, and always want to see UCLA perform well.

I certainly didn’t mean to imply that I thought yesterday’s game was a good performance. I intended only to respond to whether or not it was still really a win. I was not aware of the quality of opponent WSU had piled up stats against, but I see your point.

by sam_in_hb on Oct 9, 2011 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with you, sam

The win is always better than the loss, of course. But we know that the big picture is still what counts.

I was falling asleep while writing this last night (not so unlike the game) and really couldn’t come up with really anything interesting or intelligent to say. Apologies to all.

greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com

by gbruin on Oct 9, 2011 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's not your fault

I don’t blame the lack of interesting material in your post on your lack of sleep. The game was freakin’ boring. At least a dozen fans in my immediate vicinity last night in Sec. 5 (supposed to be the donor season-ticket section, mind you) had taken off by the middle of the 3rd quarter.

Seriously re-consdering whether the donation to the athletic department is worth it to sit on the 35 yard line, often amidst opposing teams’ fans, to watch seriously mediocre football.

by Nigel on Oct 9, 2011 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

man, you and i are on the same wavelength

Down to the section 5 seating. I reserve the right to amend my statement based on how I perceive us finishing out, but unless neuheisel is out AND we hire a legit coach, my donation is pulled and donations are going to the wife’s alma mater. It pains me, but that is the only way I know of to make my opinion heard. I want to do right by the outstanding athletes that choose our school…and maitaining the status quo is not doing so.

I’ve talked to people who will relay my concerns, but they can’t commit to an answer and have to toe the party line. But hopefully enough of us are voicing our concerns and they’re hearing it at the next level.

by Scotucla03 on Oct 9, 2011 1:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

How was that Journey show, Nigel?

greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com

by gbruin on Oct 9, 2011 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree that this win isn't impressive - at all.

We struggled, per our normal script it seems, to gain the advantage against a team that we should have beaten handily. The mistakes (when oh when will we stop with the personal fouls and the PIs) that provide the other team a “12th” man that enables them to “move” down the field. The inability of our defense not only to cover the short pass underneath and prevent it but to stop what seemed like the same play that WSU ran all night (QB hands off to RB who slides along the line either right or left until he finds a hole – gain 5 yards, repeat).

Beating WSU is expected at UCLA and what we saw last night was more of the same struggle by our team that in the presence of very good athletes, points to the coaching staff as the root cause of the problem.

by 281bruins on Oct 9, 2011 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

The smaller the sample size, the better CTSS looks. (But it's not good enough.)

We won the last quarter in comeback fashion. We won the second half. We won the game. We’re 1-0 in our last 1 game.

For the season, we’re 3-3.

More numbers. For the defense – Total D 95 (out of 120 in the country), Scoring 96, Tackles for loss 112, Pass Efficiency Defense (not sure what this is) 95, Sacks 112, 3rd Down coversion rate 118, 1st downs 111, Red Zone 110.

For the Special Teams – Punt return yards 116, punt returns 109 (an average of 2.88 yards per return), KO Return yards 102, KO returns 100.

For the offense – Scoring 80, Total offense 62, turnovers lost 62, 3rd down conversions 62, red zone offense 77.

Those numbers aren’t too good in my opinion.

CTSS is now 18-25 for a .419 rate. That’s still the worst since 1919. He now only needs to go 17-2 to tie the coaching record of his predecessor. To me, that’s the sample size to use. All of these numbers demonstrate absolute mediocrity. We praise his recruiting, but he imports an offense that is ill-suited to the most important part of that offense, the QB. Our guys (maybe not Hundley, but at least guys we’ve seen) just aren’t fast enough. They’re a step slower than other running quarterbacks, so they’re teeing themselve up to take tremendous shots. Look at the QBs from Navy, Air Force, Georgia Tech. They run the ball over and over, and get hit on every play. But they’re not getting injured. Our guys are. I think it’s that one quicker step.

Every year, there’s a new coordinator, and every coordinator is a revelation, a jewel, a pearl of great price, the next great innovator and motivator, the guy who is going to take us to the next level (my least favorite phrase, even less of a favorite than “it is what it is.”). Each of these guys proves to be another Debra Norvill, or whatver the guy’s name was who CTS brought in.

Obviously CTS doesn’t get fired today. I will give him concede his continued employment if we win the rest of our games, but I think the likelihood of that is pretty remote.

This is a bunch of gifted athletes who have been blended together into a really bad team, who are lead by really bad coaches. I still say that based on a sample size called “the entire body of work,” CTSS should not lead the team any further.

In fact, now is the best time to replace him because of the bye week coming up.

by Fox 71 on Oct 9, 2011 6:58 AM PDT reply actions  

Complete Agreement

This is a bunch of gifted athletes who have been blended together into a really bad team, who are lead by really bad coaches.

I am pleased for our players — we should celebrate the victory with them.

The fact that they can overcome poor coaching says a lot about them. They should not have to. Like any student in any part of the university, they deserve better — they deserve the call to excellence and the teaching to reach it.

Have we not had a large enough sample of failures on D to learn that we have to develop a new scheme — we cannot continue to give those puffy cushions and expect to stop people. It does not matter how talented our kids are if we do not create schemes to maximize that talent AND we do not put our best players on the field and in a position to win.

I know there will be those who say we are turning the corner, that the light at the end of the tunnel is there, but really — what game did you watch? This was butt ugly. The first quarter one of the worst I’ve seen any team play.

And, as Fox points out, it represents an entire body of work that is so mediocre that I find it incredible that anyone thinks we are on the right path with this staff and that if we win a few more games it ought to be able to stay employed.

Finally, SHAME ON ANYONE WHO BOOED KEVIN PRINCE. He is a warrior — a round peg forced into a square hole system. He has given us everything he could on every play. What more can you ask of him? Calling our players names or booing them is not acceptable. They are students. They are Bruins. They are us.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Oct 9, 2011 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Completely agree that booing KP is wrong!

I heard it last night coming from the press box side (primarily) of the Rose Bowl. It was classless, wrong and hurtful to a student-athlete who is doing his best with what he has to work with.

by 281bruins on Oct 9, 2011 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was booing Neuheisel not Prince

I regret booing at all because it did sound as if it were meant for Prince. But I was booing CRN for not putting in B. Hundley. I mean yea, Prince is a warrior and has a lot of heart, but I thought he might still have the THREE picks in the back of his head and would not perform well. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that, I can’t speak for everybody else at the Rose Bowl but that was my view.

by HARBORBRUIN on Oct 9, 2011 8:48 AM PDT reply actions  

Well said gbruin

We didn’t learn a whole lot this week. I’d like to learn what the strategy is for our 3rd down defense. It baffles me. Why a 10 yard cushion on 3rd and 5? A 14 yard cushion on 3rd and 7? You’d think we’d adjust after the first 6 or 7 times it didn’t work. We rarely forced their qb to make a play. That’s not the players’ fault.

But I’m happy for the guys, both offense and defense, because they made plays when we absolutely needed them.

by the blur 98 on Oct 9, 2011 8:59 AM PDT reply actions  

OT but saw Coach Harrick in Lot K

Coach Herrick dropped by to watch the Alumni Band. I spoke with him briefly and he seemed very happy to be back among Bruins.

by 281bruins on Oct 9, 2011 9:07 AM PDT reply actions  

17 - 2

Wow. If that doesn’t tell the tale, I don’t know what does. Miss that? Fox 71 pointed out the wins/losses the current head coach of UCLA needs to match the record of the previous UCLA head coach. Spin that around your noggin a few times. I really hope this little saying, “I really wanted him to succeed” —I said it too—doesn’t show up here anymore. UCLA hired a guy they hoped would succeed. That wasn’t a very good strategy.

by PSYCH84 on Oct 9, 2011 9:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Good point

We probably all hoped.

It’s time to have someone we know will succeed.

greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com

by gbruin on Oct 9, 2011 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

One bright spot

MJ’s play calling. Went over the top with loaded up box. He is a good coach. Only one.

by 1970 on Oct 9, 2011 9:46 AM PDT reply actions  

MJ cointues to impress

He took adv of WSU daring us to pass by bring up safeties to stop the run. That left WR 1 on 1 w/ many x shorter DB. Big gains resulted. Prince did answer that call to get the ball delivered.

by 1970 on Oct 9, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

He took advantage of WSU’s commitment to try to stop the run.

by insomniacslounge on Oct 9, 2011 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Spot on

I completely agree that it is essential to judge using a wide lens.

Last nights “win” goes further to support the fact that Neu is not the long term solution than the other way around.

by SPNB on Oct 9, 2011 9:55 AM PDT reply actions  

Get real people

If you were told before the game that RB would break his leg early in the game, how many of you honestly believe we would win the game or win the game dominating washington state.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 11:00 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Get Real acbruin

The disparity in talent between the bruins and cougars is great..Prince has been the starting qb for 3 years. He is not a true back up, so, yes we should beat them handily with whoever is playing. I will mention that the cougs were playing with THEIR back up who is in his first year playing.

by chirobruin on Oct 9, 2011 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes-get real

The answer is that many, if not most of us would expect to win this game without much struggle regardless of who is playing QB.

I refuse to continually lower expectations and grant credit for undeserving performances.

Fact is that we have several remaining games against BAD teams. If we perform in those games like we did last night, we need to make a coaching change…..regardless if we win or not.

by SPNB on Oct 9, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Pac 12

Especially the south, continues to show that it is so bad that there will be plenty of no-win situations coming up, so people better get used to it. There’s only one way for Rick to win, and that’s to meet the expectations we laid out earlier, and until that verdict comes in at the end of the season, he is a dead man walking, especially if we continue to struggle against terrible teams like WSU and SJSU.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Get real

How many PAC 12 team would trade for our starting O line or our starting D line or any of our past starting QBs. Maybe the reviews about how great our D line was on spring practice was because they were against our O line, which sucks. If you can’t block and can’t deliver the football to the receivers and you can pressure the QB without blitzing how do you realistically expect to win. I don’t agree we have the talent to dominate anyone except maybe a highschool team.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:02 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

So you're saying that we don't develop our talent

And this is your reason why Rick should get year 5?

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

.
If you can’t block and can’t deliver the football to the receivers and you can pressure the QB without blitzing how do you realistically expect to win.

So, preserve the status quo?

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Oct 9, 2011 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

B-B-But, it's a Reality Check!

Surely my contention that the team is bad syncs up with my belief that the current coach deserves another year, right? It’s Reality! And I’m acbruin and I’m Checking it!

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Get real acbruin

This is WSU. They are a terrible team. In Year 4 we should be easily handling teams like this in our stadium. SDSU did it, and our inability to do it is unacceptable, and if you believe otherwise, then you’re the one who needs to get real.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

It also amuses me to no end

That you evidently consider yourself an arbiter of reality from your previous posts when you’re so painfully and obviously detached from it.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I am so sick of uninformed low expectation

Apologists. If you are happy and satisfied with what is transpiring, why waste your time posting that blather on this site?

by SPNB on Oct 9, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not happy

First, I am not happy with the current state of affairs at UCLA. I am a die hard life long bruin. But face it when Dog-reel left he had destroyed what momentum we had left from Toledo. The cupboard was bare of talent at the positions. I just think we have the talent yet. Morgan Center won’t pay top dollar for coaching talent so I don’t see any quick fixes. I think it’s going to take at least 5 years to rebuild assuming we make no recruiting mistakes.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:11 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Kinda agree ... kinda

The winning spirit started to bleed away under Toledo. Team morale and discipline hit a nadir (handicap placards & mob associations). Dorrell came in to clean house and put a stop to the off field antics (at least I hope so, cuz that’s the only thing he succeeded in doing). By time he left we had a team which under performed for at least 7 seasons. The guys just shrugged off defeats as if they didn’t matter – in one game when we were behind in the 4th the camera showed our QB joking around on the sidelines.

Now we have Neu.

I agree with all the comments about watching these games – even the one which contradict each other (ie. I feel conflicted about UCLA football). There is a problem with looking at any one game to determine if we’ve “turned the corner yet” (and I think that this is why so many front pagers are taking the “wait and see” attitude): You cannot see a trend by looking at any one point. You cannot see a long-term trend by looking at a couple of adjacent points.

Until we have a large enough data set most of our opinions are either venting or trying to keep a positive mental attitude.

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure you're happy with it

Happy enough to obviously put in for another year of this garbage even though you have no logical or legitimate reason to believe next year is going to be any better. What are we going to see in Year 5 that we can’t see in closing out Year 4 in terms of getting this program back to respectability? If we don’t have the talent yet, then why don’t we have it? Who is responsible for that, and why does the person who was responsible for it before get to have another year to fuck it up? It sounds like you want to argue for the sake of argument, but sadly, that reality that you’re so fond of doesn’t seem to agree with you.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Our last coach

wasn’t much of a coach…but he was, and will always be, a Bruin. We can easily reference his lack of skill at HC without denigrating him personally.

Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.

by KSBruin on Oct 9, 2011 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com

by gbruin on Oct 9, 2011 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

He had a couple issues that were slightly troganesque

Such as tossing the occasional athlete under the bus, and firing an assistant by text message. My main problem was putting his ego ahead of the good of the program. He should not have waited to be fired.

by Fox 71 on Oct 10, 2011 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I completely agree

he should have been let go earlier, and am in no way defending his actions or decisions. I just find name-calling to be inappropriate.

Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.

by KSBruin on Oct 10, 2011 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I saw Harrick also............

He was chatting amicably with some folks. In retrospect, his transgressions, inappropriate as they undoubtedly were, just didn’t merit his ultimate dismissal. That’s my take. We’ll save it for some other time and topic.

As for last night’s game, the win alleviated my anxiety at least because had it been an ugly, clumsy loss, the crowds might have rushed the locker room. Seriously, that was my worry the whole time watching the game among several vocal critics of the program. If folks here on BN tried to explain who they really booed and hollered, don’t worry because those eight or nine individuals behind me badmouthed everything going on down in the field. Their pernicious negativity soon caught on, and presumably when Prince did what he did, the dam broke.

They were the culprits.

I said it somewhere that I went through worse Bruins games before, when I literally wanted to scream and trash everything in sight, even. Neuheisel is lame duck, period.. With the remaining games on schedule, I fervently hope he has some fight left to make his last season with UCLA, arguably a charitable one in all perspectives, not so emotionally exacting for us.

Last night I went home late after dining at a quiet, out of the way but quaint French restaurant at nearby Sierra Madre. I needed it to calm myself for fear of some bloodbaths should things ever spiral out of the control, and be reminiscent of Lavin last year. Then, ever so eerily, the lyrics of an old theme song from a Hollywood disaster film came into mind.

Those of you that are my contemporaries probably remember the epic film Poseidon Adventure. Its remake came out in the last nineties but flopped. In a surreal way, the words from the song just started to reverberate in my head. " There’s got to be the morning after, if we can hold on through the night …… "

Indeed, in a couple of months, we will be there.

by Htse005 on Oct 9, 2011 11:34 AM PDT reply actions  

expectations

I respect the optimism of this post, including the notion that UCLA SHOULD beat WSU easily. But that’s not reality. What data do we have to suggest that this is realistic? Recruiting talent? That doesn’t carry that much weight, as we clearly realize. For the near future, we’re not going to “win pretty.” But I believe the talent we DO have can build some momentum after any kind of win. So, let’s acknowledge this isn’t the 2001 team that throttled MIchigan and Alabama. We’re “gutty” for now but if we can get healthy during the bye, win the games we should (ugly or otherwise), and get 7 wins, at least we’ll have optimism + tangible victories whereas in the past, it’s been trying to sell optimism without victories.

by uclaproflee on Oct 9, 2011 11:37 AM PDT reply actions  

Whether it's realistic based on what we've seen so far

Is irrelevant. These are the expectations for a coach in his fourth year. Meet them or get the hell out of the way. Anything less is simply letting our ineptitude lower the bar for the rest of the season, and that’s not going to happen. We are not ones to let our eyes wander off of the prize.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Morgan Center is lost

So we blow Out CRN. Now what top flight coach is going to come to UCLA for less than market rate. Do any of us think Morgan Center will pay 4 mil for a coach. They should but they won’t. Then there is Leach funny guy possibly a good coach but is he great. plus he has a strange personality which the Morgan Center will not support. When is the last time they publicly supported a pirate.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

So your alternative is to stand pat with this

While the ship sinks. That’s a great plan. Show me why Rick should get another year if we continue to play like this.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Change

I am not happy with the status of UCLA football. I think before we change CRN we will get more bang for our buck, no-pun intended, if we change the culture at the MorganCenter first. Have first rate facilities, commitment to pay for first rate assistant coaches, and first rate uniforms, oh don’t getme started on that
one. Then any coach we have will have NO excuse not to succeed. Problem is we care more than Morgan Center does and we have to find a way to change that, I just wish I knew how.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 1:38 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Perhaps you're not familiar with this site

Are you under the impression that we are happy with the job Dan has been doing? I think you need to take a look around.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Change

You miss the point. I think we are better off if change clueless dan before CRN. Let’s assume we fire CRN do you really think clueles Dan is going to hire a first rate football coach. Do really believe so and if so what do you base that belief on.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 1:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, you miss the point

Because most of us would be perfectly happy for what you said to come true. That’s why I said you need to read up on what we’ve been discussing around here, because it’s pretty obvious you don’t get it.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Missing the mark

No reason for a tit for tat especially when your wrong. If you get what you wish for and blow out CRN then what. Becareful what you wish for with clueless dan making the decisions. I say use our energies to get rid of clueless dan first then deal with CRN.

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 2:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Exactly

So why are you still talking? Quit digging your hole deeper. It’s been clear for about an hour now that you’re wrong and now you’re also ignorant of what we’re advocating around here.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

So why waste your time focusing on getting rod of CRN when you know that such is not the answer to UCLA football problems

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 2:16 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Do you have problems multitasking or something?

You can do more than one thing at a time. In fact, highlighting Rick’s failures only serves as a black mark on DG as well, so in a way, we kill two birds with one stone. Meanwhile, we have myopic people like you who are unable to multitask and who believe everything has to be done in serial order. It doesn’t.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, and PS

Asserting that getting rid of CRN instantly means Dan will be around to choose his replacement is a logical fail on your part. Quit replying just to see yourself type because you’re adding absolutely nothing here.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

What dan is clued into is the politics of the morgan center and the NCAA I might be wrong but getting rid of CRN is no gauranty that clueless Dan will be gone too. Enough said

by acbruin on Oct 9, 2011 2:22 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Good

“Enough said” means that you’re done dropping mind numbingly boring opinions that we’ve already discussed many times here that you for some reason think are so brilliant and original.

We are focused on getting this program back on track. Thus far it does not appear that Rick has what it takes to get it done. We don’t believe that Dan has the vision to make it happen either. We focus our efforts on correcting that.

The next time you reply with another brilliant and original “reality check” for us, making it clear that you haven’t read anything we’ve posted over the summer or the past few months, will be your last, because I don’t have time to hash over these same discussions and hold your hand though them. I’m not your babysitter.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually it was the 2000 team that "throttled" Alabama and Michigan

That team ended 6-6 losing to Wisconsin in the Sun Bowl. I drove 24 hours round trip from San Diego to see that game. And the two wins above were hardly throttling. I remember Lloyd Carr throwing the ball inside our 40 when they were jamming it down our throats with the run game to the tune of 250 yards on the day.

by chirobruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope...Alabama and Michigan

Ryan McCann replaced an injured Paus in the Alabama game and did quite well. We played Alabama and Ohio St. in 2001, beating bama on the road and tOSU 13-7 in the Rose Bowl with Phil Snow’s “blizzard of Westwood” defense.

by chirobruin on Oct 9, 2011 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was replying to uclaproflee's comment:
So, let’s acknowledge this isn’t the 2001 team that throttled MIchigan and Alabama.

In 2001 it was Alabama and Ohio State.

by BrendonBruin on Oct 9, 2011 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just for the record and for what it's worth

SDSU did not dominate in their game against WSU. I watched the game after the Texas debacle. Cougs were up 24-14 towards the end of the third quarter. Then they couldnt stop the Aztecs. The game was much closer than the final indicated. That being said, we should never have to compare ourselves to MTW opponents especially SDSU. The Aztecs are not that hot anyway, just lost at home by 13 to TCU who is a shell of what they were last year…..

by chirobruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:08 PM PDT reply actions  

Compared to what happened last night

SDSU dominated. They won 1st downs, yards, and TOP. Want to guess how many of those we won last night?

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basically, we were even at best with Washington State.

A team that’s won 4 games in the previous three seasons. A team that recruits to Pullman. A team with a coach in his 4th year, like ours, but who’s had nothing close to 3 top-10 recruiting classes. And we were playing at home, and needed late-game drive to pull it out.

We are at Washington State’s level with top-10 talent. Enjoy.

by bluebland on Oct 9, 2011 12:30 PM PDT reply actions  

You are right. Last nIght we were about even with WSU

Last season we were better than WSU was last season – I’m not sure how we could compare this season’s Bruins to the past three season of WSU … or why we would want to. This fact says enough:

We are at Washington State’s level.

We can feel proud, ashamed, or whatever but we won’t really know the significance of that statement until the season is nearly over and we see WSU’s level and UCLA’s level. And the relative levels at the end of the season will be more significant then.

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

We were lower

In every stat that counted except for the points on the board. We don’t even have to wait till the end of the season to ask the question why WSU is improving at a faster rate than we are.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

That is true.

FWIW: Points on the board is often the statistic which gets you into bowl games and NC’s

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

In all fairness

points per game has the strongest correlation to win % of any stat. More correlations coming soon to a Fanpost near you

by LVBruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why not?

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Then I'll go with

Utah: Plays up to 2 meaningful games a year as a member of the MWC – expects NC invite.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm getting lost here

Probably my fault, but we uh…tied? Cause we’re both in the same conference?

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

So we weren't "lower" if we "tied" right?

Sorry, Ty, just feeling cranky about all the logomachy here.

Way back when (I cared about it) my point was UCLA and WSU are about even – but we don’t really know how good our teams are yet. We’re both better than we were last year.

We don’t want to be ‘better than last year’ we want to be ‘good’. The nub of the problem is we cannot accurately measure how good we are without knowing how good our opponents really are.

I am as frustrated as everyone else is (and I regret ‘kinda agreeing’ with anyone I do not wish to cast lots with. I was just trying to compromise to build consensus but, as Obama has shown us, that isn’t always a wise course of action).

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was just messing around too

And then I got lost. So joke is on me.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Forrget the psychobabble

This program has been a circus for 4.5 years now. How large of a “data set” do you need?

Those pesky things called facts, like our win-loss record over close to half a decade should suffice.

by SPNB on Oct 9, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah. You know, someone should take a long view of UCLA football.

I mean, don’t just look at scores over the past 4.5 years but look into the past decades or so and maybe even compare it with teams we often play.

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really? Being equal with WSU at this point in time

With far superior talent, isn’t a significant fact?

Whatever WSU turns out to be — and I’ll save you the suspense by saying bad — they have much much less talent, and with the same level of coaching-staff experience that we do. This was the 6th game of the season. We should’ve probably lost, going by quality of play (they settled for three 10-yard line field goals). These are very significant in terms of long-term meaning, because if we were playing Oregon instead we’d lose by 70.

by bluebland on Oct 9, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

As a fan of a team that had only won 6 of its last 17 games

I’m happy with last nights win. As a fan of the UCLA Bruins, I’m irate that we’ve only won 7 of our last 18 games. Does that sum up the argument that’s going on here?

by LVBruin on Oct 9, 2011 12:36 PM PDT reply actions  

This is not show business

In Hollywood the term brake a leg was to wish you luck. Opps!

Richard Brehaut #12 QB IS MY HERO

If you get to play again this year… we will be that the RB yelling Brehaut get 6.
I know next year, the contending QB’s won’t stand a chance against you.
Two Fans
Clayton and Gloria

by Ol'Blue&Gold on Oct 9, 2011 1:18 PM PDT reply actions  

The fact that we got a "W"

doesn’t mean that it wasn’t an ugly game against an equally ugly team. Hard to figure whether their lack of success in the red zone had more to do with their ugliness or the effectiveness of our D. Did our D step up, or was it just the (lack of) quality of the opponent? The D certainly sucked for most of the rest of the game.

by ucla717274 on Oct 9, 2011 1:27 PM PDT reply actions  

CTSS's is looked on as a brilliant recruiter, but that isn't enough.

I spent the morning looking at ESPN recruiting classes and AP final standings. There were 10 teams who had a top 25 recruiting class in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 but who did not end in the AP Top 25 ranking in 2009, 2010 or so far in 2011. Those teams are UCLA, of course, and Georgia, Notre Dame, Minnesota. Colorado, North Carolina, Tennessee, Rutgers USF, and Washington. There were 20 teams who finished in the Top 25 in those years who did not have a recruiting class in the top 25. Those teams are Boise State, TCU, Iowa, Cincinnati, BYU, Georgia Tech, Wisconsin. Utah, Texas Tech, Central Michigan, Nevada, Michigan State, Missouri, Central Florida, Tulsa, North Carolina State, Houston, Baylor, Kansas State and West Virginia,

There are probably many different conclusions to be drawn from those data, but one of them surely must be that great recruiting does not give you a winning season. Another is that Peterson and Patterson seem to be able to produce winning teams without getting a lot of five star recruits.

Or to put it another way, we have seen for CTSS’s entire time here that a bad coach cannot make a winning team even with great recruits.

What surprised me the most was that there were so many teams doing as poorly as we are with recruits. Georgia, for example, had four good recruiting years, with not much to prove .

Anyway, if you want my little chart, you’ll have to explain how to post it. As for me, I am more convinced than ever that if we had a coach, we could win consistently with the guys we get, or with the guys we don’t get, or with a bunch of guys we find at random walking down the street. It also demonstrates that recruiting class ranking (at least ESPN’s recruiting class ranking) is not a partcularly accurate predictor of success down the road.

by Fox 71 on Oct 9, 2011 1:43 PM PDT reply actions  

One can conclude

that a good coach doesn’t need a good recruiting class to get results, or, to put it another way, that a good coach can maximize talent, whatever the level. Therefore it doesn’t do much good to have a coach who can’t get results from a group of outstanding recruits. Therefore, RN’s tenure is up. Period.

by ucla717274 on Oct 9, 2011 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think that if we define our terms very (painstakingly) precisely

we will hit upon the crux. There are a number of ‘coaching skills’ which matter in College Sports: identifying talent, recruiting (persuading athletes), teaching/training, scouting film/pre-game analysis, play calling, real-time analysis, and GOK’s how many other.

Every team has advantages in certain areas and disadvantages in others, coaching staffs have strengths and weaknesses, HC’s have strengths and weaknesses. Ultimately, we have a complicated, multivariate system – not a single man – that needs to deal with complex and inter-acting things effectively. We can and should hold the head of this system accountable for its performance. However, as satisfying as it might be to shout “Off with their heads” that doesn’t actually solve the problem. At best it erases the blackboard so you have a blank slate onto which to write the solution.

For me personally, until I hear a convincing description of exactly what UCLA’s problem is, I’ll harbor doubts that anyone has a solution. FWIW: I don’t have one. (And before anyone cites one single short-coming – like CRN’s failure to ‘go for it on 4th down’ – let me say: each of these individual annoyances are merely symptoms, there must be a root cause and until we find the cause we’re shooting in the dark).

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your overall point is solid - great recruiting clases do not invariably lead to great teams

and great coaches/systems can produce contenders out of ‘lesser’ talent. One thought that I have on your data usage is that I don’t think comparing recruiting classes to that Fall’s team performance is quite accurate. Considering that few freshmen have a significant impact on their team, and the proportion of entering classes that redshirt, my thought (for whatever that is worth) is that it should take a couple of years for those classes to work their way into the rotation and show their talent. Last season and this season look to be the starting points to really consider how the coaches are producing with those players – as we all can see, not well.

That is part of why this season is so disappointing – with the players from those recruiting classes (incoming ’08/09/10) comprising most of the roster, this should have been a very strong year – something that looked obvious as far back as the summer of ’09.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Oct 9, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I deferred it a year. I looked at the 08, 09, 10 and 11 classes, and compared those results to the 09, 10 and 11 AP standings.

Maybe it should be deferred two years. I added a PS to one of Knudsen’s posts and asked him to do a real study on this, which would certainly yield more useful data than my review.

by Fox 71 on Oct 9, 2011 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yah. There are ways to look into 'lags'

To put it simply, does a good recruiting class in year X correlate to a good season in year X+N
(and, BTW, N would be a very useful number to know).

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree with your conclusions and hope to see the chart.

I also believe that as long as RN gets at least 5 wins Guerrerror will embrace him and keep him on. (RN will probably get a raise for a 6-7 season.) It’s the culture of mediocrity and appearance.

After reading Swing Your Sword I think Mike Leach would be exactly the right coach for this program and that we’d win 7 or 8 games in his first season with the talent we have. (With Brett Hundley being hailed as the next Cam Newton.) And I think Leach would take $2 million.

But it’s not going to happen. Morgan Center doesn’t think of us as a football school, or that football is that important to the scheme of things. 100+ NCAA championships will keep them happy at MC, and there is no urgency for our revenue sports any more.

Sad. We once had a coach who said that “Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing.” His reincarnee is out there, just waiting for the opportunity. Guerrerror will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

by BrendonBruin on Oct 9, 2011 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Boo!

When you Boo you boo all, the team, the coach and the true fans that support all. Those that choose to replace CRN should get the whole story before condemning him. Yes we have some of the best athlete’s and intelligents ones. UCLA has the highest academic standards of all the schools in the conference and will not lower those standards that would allow us the recruit larger bodies for our offensive and defensive lines. That is why our quarterbacks are getting hurt.

by Blue Critter on Oct 9, 2011 2:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Surprise, surprise

More Rick apologist nonsense from Blue Critter.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

You will also refrain

From equating those that support the team blindly and unconditionally and “true fans”, because that’s just a bullshit emotional tactic.

by Tydides on Oct 9, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Larger Bodies for our offensive and defensive lines?

Get serious, our o-line averages 300+. You wont find many bigger lines than that in the nation. Our DT’s go 295-300 pounds to a man. We are not small, just poorly coached.

by chirobruin on Oct 9, 2011 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Why let facts get in the way of fervently defending poor coaching and accepting the diseased culture of mediocrity?

by Bellerophon on Oct 9, 2011 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Brendon

Yes Stanford has high standards as well but they bridge them to allow athlete’s to be recruited. As does Cal, Washington, Arizona, etc. UCLA does not have a program to bridge the standards.

by Blue Critter on Oct 9, 2011 2:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Stanford's standards are much higher than UCLA's

They have no “bridge” a la Cal’s pair of majors. What they have is a far more valuable degree, which makes them more attractive to those who qualify, but that number is much smaller than the number that qualify for UCLA.

by bluebland on Oct 9, 2011 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the opposite is true

It is easier to finagle a top athlete with lower grades into UCLA than into Stanford.

OTOH: It is probably easier for a Stanford athlete to find a major which will be easy to remain academically eligible than a UCLA athlete to do so.

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

I thought that football recruits had a different-much lower- standard for admission than the general student body. This admissions standard excuse seems to be wildly overstated.

by SPNB on Oct 9, 2011 3:07 PM PDT reply actions  

Correct

The admit standards for football players (and other recruited athletes) is significantly lower than the normal admission standards – but well higher than the NCAA minimum standards. From what I have gathered from admit numbers that the NCAA used to release, together with comments from beat writers and commentators, our football admit standards are 2nd to Stanford in the Pac-12, and one of the toughest in D-1a football.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Oct 9, 2011 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can we dispense with this myth?

According to the UCLA Athletic Dept website, a student athlete needs a 2.5 GPA and an 820 on the standardized tests “NCAA clearing house limits”.

by SPNB on Oct 9, 2011 3:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes, and no

Those are the NCAA’s minimum academic credentials for incoming freshmen (the NCAA does permit HS grads with as low as a 2.0 GPA to be eligible, but with a correspondingly higher SAT score). The admissions department has its own standards for incoming student-athletes which by all accounts are higher than the NCAA standards, but with the ability for a coach to lobby for a student meeting the NCAA standards to be admitted.

The athletic department can try to bring in a recruit with those numbers, but admissions may not accept him/her.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Oct 9, 2011 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

With that said...

Neuheisel brought in 3-straight top-10 recruiting classes (the first one with Dewayne Walker providing a big assist), and Walker delivered a small, but highly rated recruiting class for Dorrell the year before. It might not be as easy as being able to get kids through admissions here than at Oklahoma or USC, but a good recruiter can do well recruiting to UCLA.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Oct 9, 2011 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry. Brain fart.

I meant the school may have higher standards in actual practice.

 IOW: Just because a coach wants a particular player doesn’t mean the AD will ensure s/he gets their wishes granted.

Play with so much passion nothing else matters

by KnudsenRockne on Oct 9, 2011 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

The difference between now and 30 years ago

is expectations. Over the last decade one does not know what they will get from the UCLA Bruins on the football field. That wasn’t the case in the past. Sure, there were disappointing losses. But you had the expectation that the Bruins always had a chance to win. Now, you just don’t know. The reason is coaching. We’ve seen numerous references to recruiting success that hasn’t translated to wins. It’s coaching and the Bruins have been deficient in that department for the better part of a decade. When Terry Donahue was hired to replace Dick Vermeil after the Bruins TREMENDOUS victory over #1 ranked Ohio State—honk if you remember how great John Sciarra was—everybody was thinking, “Huh?”. Terry who? Oh, he was an offensive lineman, what?, when they beat Michigan State! Blah blah blah. Shucks, go back further to when Vermeil was hired. For those of you old enough, what did anyone know about Vermeil? The point is, the fact that we’re on here with “Gosh, I really wanted him to succeed” means ONE THING. And that is this: IT WAS A TREMENDOUS MISTAKE TO HIRE RICK NEUHEISEL. If Dick Vermeil had not succeeded or Terry Donahue had not succeeded—-remember, expectations of WINNING—no one would have written, “Yeah, I really wanted him to succeed”. If they were 15 and 22 after three seasons they would have been GONE. I think the discussion has to go deeper to something like, what in the hell were we thinking? His two stints with the other programs are the statistical equivalent of a camel’s back. Start big then down slope. This time, however, no “big”, only down.

Whenever I do something wrong or stupid, I feel bad. It was wrong to hire Rick. It is stupid that he is still Head Coach of the UCLA Bruins, the only football team I care about. And I feel really bad about it.

by PSYCH84 on Oct 9, 2011 4:10 PM PDT reply actions  

If CTSS had gone to just about any other school, maybe we all would have looked at the numbers a little more closely

The fact is that his two four-year stints at CU and UW produced records just about identical to the four-year records immediately before he took over. The teams didn’t get significantly worse, but they didn’t get better, either. I confess that I was smitten with his UCLA pedigree, and didn’t look deeply enough. We all made this same mistake, I think.

by Fox 71 on Oct 9, 2011 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

And maybe we were also swayed

by his dynamic personality, compared to CTS.

by ucla717274 on Oct 9, 2011 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am watching the replay on Prime right now.

Without the pressure of not knowing how it turns out.

And while it’s still very frustrating, it’s easier to see how poorly coached our players are and, more importantly, how RN has used the wrong personnel through seniority, favoritism, or both. Hendricks, Fauria, DC should all be starting (with apologizes to JetSki, but there it is). And the play calling by RN or his OC was just horrendous. Whenever the play calling was a little adventurous, we were rewarded.

As I thought from watching last night, our 3 (actually 4 goal line stands were very good, but Wazzu’s coaches were doing exactly the same things we had been doing — playing it safe.

This game is Exhibit A in why we need new coaches next year. Our guys are poorly prepared, poorly coached, and poorly used with a poor game plan. They — and we — deserve better.

by BrendonBruin on Oct 9, 2011 8:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Fauria must really be horrible in practice.

I think there was one pass in his direction all night. I’m no football expert. Is this like little league, where every kid needs to get an at bat? You can’t get the ball to your best weapon more than once a game?

by Fox 71 on Oct 10, 2011 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Mike Leach (there I go again) makes sure every offensive player has touches.

His reason? He wants the defense guessing all the time. And he wants to reward his players, in whom he has confidence (confidence being a two-way street).

Leach knows how to coach, despite his idiosyncrasies. He’s a great, fundamentally sound, coach. And someone who thinks outside the box. We haven’t had a coach thinking outside the box since Prothro and Vermeil.

by BrendonBruin on Oct 10, 2011 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

What did you see about JetSki

that led you to this conclusion. I love DC and think he should get more touches, but in this game:

Jetski – 12 carries, 110 yards
Coleman – 11 carries, 27 yards

by harry bruin on Oct 10, 2011 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

JetSki had a good game with a couple of good breakaways.

But we need DC in there to soften up the other team.

Everything we do should be geared to sowing confusion and hesitation in the defense facing us. We need to run screens and counters to wear out the opposing DL. Once we’ve sown confusion and tired them out and softened them up (by running more streaks with a relay of WRs), then JetSki will start going to the house. Right now he’s getting some good runs, but not scoring on them.

At least that’s my take.

by BrendonBruin on Oct 10, 2011 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

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