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UCLA Can Get A Big Name Coach: Part 2 - Admissions

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The issue of admissions and academics in college football is at one end contentious - but also very difficult to find much hard evidence to determine. On the first part, I'll admit to having had at least 1 spirited holiday dinner-table debate on the subject with Cal-alumni relatives on the subject, and anyone that frequents BRO or some of the other message boards has undoubtedly come across the argument that admissions has hindered UCLA's ability to recruit - or have seen some Cal/Oregon/ASU etc fans come over to argue against the image of heightened relative admission standards for Bruin football. On the second point, there is not much public data regarding the admission standards for college athletes. The NCAA keeps track of such data, and until schools began to complain about the impact of those numbers on their image, used to make such information public.

Last week, I started out my look at some of the issues that may impact a coach's decision to look at what should soon be a vacant head coaching position in Westwood by discussing the root of the problem of UCLA Football's decade of mediocrity - the culture of Morgan Center, led by Dan Guerrero. Aside from the issues with the athletic administration, there are a few other factors that a prospective UCLA football coach will have in mind when considering the position. Today, I am going to run through one of these factors, the admission standards for incoming football players.

There is no perfect way to look at the issue of football admissions - and as schools have worked to keep the relevant information out of the public eye, it is not an easy examination to make. With that said, I have done my best to take a little look, laying out the existing admission standards as accurately as possible given the information available, looking at how those standards compare to those of top-flight football programs, and at how the standards have impacted a UCLA coach's ability to recruit talent to Westwood.

Star-divide

While not a surprise to anyone that has followed college athletics to any degree, it is very true that recruited athletes are cut a major break in the admissions process; at the elite schools - a grouping including UCLA, this gap becomes rather massive. As we are told, a necessity of fielding a competitive slate of teams.

"If you’re going to mount a competitive program in Division I-A, and our institution is committed to do that, some flexibility in admissions of athletes is going to take place," said Tom Lifka, chairman of the committee that handles athlete admissions at the University of California, Los Angeles. "Every institution I know in the country operates in the same way. It may or may not be a good thing, but that’s the way it is."

The pressure to run a race to the bottom in athletic admission standards is tough to avoid, as former UCLA Chancellor Charles Young told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

The decision how far to go in lowering admissions standards for athletes varies considerably from school to school. It can be a challenge to avoid a race to the bottom.

"We go out on the field and get beaten by people we couldn’t admit," said Charles Young, former president of the University of Florida and former chancellor of UCLA. "It creates strong pressures to go [to rival schools’ admissions standards], and there have to be very strong countervailing pressures to avoid going there."

With that said, the admission standards applied to incoming athletes, including our football recruits is among the toughest of major D-1 athletic departments and football programs. Several attempts to measure the difficulty of football admissions have been made by the media over the past few years. One series, by the Orlando Sentinel, resulted in a pair of measures - a straight 1-10 ranking of the relative difficulty of football admissions, and a comparison among schools in each conference, based upon discussions with relevant people to the process such as coaches, university officials and recruiting specialists. (Note, as the Sentinel's archive isn't playing nicely, links are to outside sites that reprinted data from the stories at the time of original publication).

As a result of its investigation, the Sentinel rated only 1 D-1A (now FBS) football program as a 10 in admissions difficulty - Rice. 4 more schools rated a 9, none of whom should come as much surprise (Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt and West Point). 6 more universities rated an 8 in admit difficulty, including the 2 remaining military academies, Duke, Tulane, Southern Methodist... and UCLA. 11 Football programs rated between an 8-10 in difficulty, 6 of which are members of BCS conferences, and only 4 of whom really take football seriously (maybe 5, Wake Forest has a solid coach whom they pay a truckload of money. But Duke??). The Bruins don't have much competition at the top. Here are a few other schools with well-regarded academics and football programs and where they fell:

8-10: Duke, Northwestern, Stanford, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest

7: Georgia Tech, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas

6: Cal, North Carolina, Virginia

3 - just for fun: Southern Cal

Interesting stuff to think about. And the conference comparison - looking at what used to be the Pac-10.

Pacific 10 -- 10 schools

Buckle down: Stanford

Semi-tough: UCLA

Semi-easy: Arizona, California, Oregon, USC, Washington

All in: Arizona State, Oregon State, Washington State

The same source also listed the (then) Big XII findings; Mizzu was the only member of that conference to fall into the Semi-tough category. Baylor, Texas A&M and the University of Texas (all quality institutions, to my knowledge) all fell into the Semi-easy category. Those colleges, along with Cal and Washington's presence in that admissions category points to the ability of a strong-to-elite college to take some liberties in admitting student-athletes, as long as they provide the resources to help them perform at their best in the classroom as well as on the playing field.

While studies like those conducted by the Sentinel are helpful and enlightening, having hard date available makes that kind of study easier. While there are precious few reliable and consistent sources for this sort of admissions data, Jon Wilner did publish the football admissions data (GPA and SAT scores for all enrolled football players) covering several years through the late 1990's and early 2000's.

GPA/SAT scores for admitted football players

Stanford: 3.63, 1176
UCLA: 3.15, 990
Oregon: 2.94, 969
Cal: 2.93, 984
Wash: 2.86, 963
Ore St: 2.84, 928
USC: 2.80, 955
Wash St: 2.80, 920
Ariz: 2.76, 948
Ariz St: 2.76, 937

While a look at the numbers also places the Bruins as being subjected to tougher admission requirements than most of the competition, anecdotal evidence shared by reporters like Jon Wilner and Brian Dohn shows that over the past few years, it appears that UCLA admissions has decided to take a harder line in admitting football recruits than its peer institutions. The root of the practice seems to go back to Bob Toledo's time in Westwood.

... I’d guess that UCLA’s average SATs scores were higher during the 2003-05 window than the 1998-00 period based on a tightening of the admissions screws in the post-Toledo era.

However, according to several former assistant coaches at Pac-10 schools, UCLA's recruiting pool is markedly smaller than anyone else's in the league except Stanford's...

UCLA's more stringent admittance standards, in part, can be traced back to former coach Bob Toledo's 1998 recruiting class, which was ranked as the best in the nation by several outlets.

``That class was filled with risks and had trouble in school,'' said one UCLA insider who requested anonymity. A source said about one-third of the class had academic problems at UCLA, although some of those individuals graduated.

So, if Wilner and Dohn were on the right track, folks in the admissions department were able to leverage this aspect of Toledo's lax oversight of the football program to raising the admit requirements for football after Toledo's departure from the university. That would also mean that when looking at the above GPA/SAT chart, part of the time covered was during Toledo's relatively lax admissions period, meaning that the averages under Dorrell and Neuheisel are likely higher that those several-year averages.

While the admission standards that UCLA Football has been subject to in recent years is among the toughest among major programs, the program has managed to bring in elite recruits and highly-ranked classes to Westwood. From 2007-10, 3 recruiting classes rated among the top-10 nationally came to Westwood, with the 4th class (2007) rating in the top-10 in terms of average quality of recruits, but with the small size of the class keeping the overall ranking down. The first two classes were recruited at the end of Karl Dorrell's tenure as head coach, but with a big assist from guys such as Eric Scott and DeWayne Walker; whatever you might otherwise think of these two, they were coaches with the confidence and recruiting chops to run with the team across town. Rick Neuheisel took over the program just before the second of those classes signed their LOI's, and later brought in two big classes of his own, before the lack of progress under his tenure became all too clear. While a prospective coach (whether justified or not) will certainly demand some changes in football admissions when negotiating with UCLA, a loosening of standards is not a necessary change to allow elite players to come to UCLA. Helpful maybe, but not a necessity.

There are a couple of lessons to draw from this: The first is that while keeping up our university's overall academic standards and reputation is of utmost importance, the enhanced standards for admissions that we are subjecting the football program has little relevance to our overall prestige. While not letting everybody with a 4.3 40-yard time accept a scholarship, peer universites such as Cal, Michigan, UNC, Texas and UVa have found their way to letting guys in with lower academic numbers than UCLA does, and it has not hurt their brand. The second is that even with the current admission standards, football coaches with the ability and the confidence to recruit aggressively have been able to succeed in bringing classes of elite recruits to UCLA. The degree of difficulty and effort needed to navigate a smaller talent pool may be higher, but it most certainly can be done.

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My view on admissions has always been

that the school should not allow kids who have no chance of succeeding academically. Taking into account each kid’s individual attributes though and the services available to student-athletes, if there is reason to believe that they can succeed at UCLA then let them in. Maybe they struggled in high school for x reason or didn’t do well on the SATs because of z. Whatever.

It would be unfair to allow kids in who are just going to fail, but if they can succeed at UCLA then they should get that chance and that is where the admissions committee needs to show some flexibility. Look at the kids individually and trust the coaches. As long as kids are graduating, keep trusting the coaches. I don’t care much for what a kid’s high school GPA or SATs were if they show up at UCLA, do the work and walk away with a degree. The goal should be to identify kids who can get that degree, not what the kid’s academic metrics are.

Two roads diverged in a wood and I – I tweeted my followers to ask which I should take

by Ryan Rosenblatt on Nov 8, 2011 4:23 PM PST reply actions  

Sounds like a reasonable approach

Miles Brand actually had a similar train of thought when he was alive. For that matter, that is essentially Iowa’s criteria for athletic special admits.

NCAA President Myles Brand said the big question isn’t whether athletes are as qualified as other students when they enroll but whether, given help, they can obtain degrees. "What you are really looking for is whether the student-athletes who are being accepted have the capability of graduating from that institution with the academic support they have available," Brand said.

As we all know the real reason that these kids are being brought to UCLA (Chris Joseph aside, it is not to breed the next generation of Rhodes Scholars) the basic question being whether a kid can succeed academically and has a high probability of earning his/her degree from UCLA. Those academic metrics are certainly important in answering that question, but not exclusive in that role.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Nov 8, 2011 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

And on that point of identifying kids that can succeed when given the proper assistance

The Indy Star presented a rather extreme example from Vanderbilt’s football program from many years ago, that actually worked as intended.

The former IU coach started his career at Vanderbilt, a highly selective private school in the Southeastern Conference, widely regarded as the nation’s top football conference. He said he had to present most of his recruits to a special committee, but in four years it rejected “maybe one or two guys I really wanted.”

One of his recruits had an excellent high school grade-point average — at a school with a poor reputation because of low attendance rates — but a lowly 710 on his SAT.

“No way an average student gets admitted to Vanderbilt with a 710 SAT,” DiNardo said. “I had letters from the coach and teacher saying he never missed a day of class. He was admitted, he was one of our better players and he graduated. That’s the way the process is supposed to work.”

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Nov 8, 2011 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know that admission standards are the problem

As was stated in the final paragraphs, you’ve had quite a few top-10 classes recently. You’ve significantly out recruited Oregon before last year.

You need to find a coach that will have an effective style of play and who will then recruit to that style.

It’s not a talent problem with your team, it’s improving the talent once they get to school and then utilizing them correctly.

by KitIsh on Nov 8, 2011 4:48 PM PST reply actions  

You are right, at least looking at the players on the team now

In terms of our current predicament, a lack of talent is not the problem.

In terms of a coaching search, there is a perception out there, justified or not, that the admit standards are a problem and could form a stumbling block in attracting a highly regarded/high leverage candidate to UCLA. While some allowances in admissions might need to be made, our AD should be driving home the point of KD/Walker/Neuheisel’s recruiting success from the first conversation with a prospective coach.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Nov 8, 2011 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

If my memory serves me well......

There was a celebrated case back in the 70’s or early 80"s of a UCLA football recruit who wound up going to prison for murder. During the trial it came out that he was functionally illiterate. All hell broke loose and people wanted to know how somebody who basically couldn’t read or write got into UCLA.
  That scandal impacted recruitment for many years after the incident. Also, wasn’t there something called prop 47 that allowed so many questionalble recruits in every year. Haven’t heard anything about that in a while.

by Twothphry on Nov 8, 2011 5:08 PM PST reply actions  

Billy Don Jackson

ttp://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun/04/sports/sp-crowe4

Powder to the People

by bruinski on Nov 8, 2011 5:19 PM PST reply actions  

In terms of admissions I don't think it's an issue with UCLA

For other schools, possibly. However with UCLA, we’ve showed with CRN that you can recruit a top class with talent. You can recruit a top class that meets the academic standards. It’s just you have to find the right recruits, that fit both category, and they have to fit the coach’s coaching style. You can’t make shortcuts in doing it. It’s just at the moment, the recruits that CRN recruited have underperformed, and that’s the coach’s fault. Either they’re not fitting his style of play, and he simply recruited top talent or he’s just a poor coach. It’s also the AD’s fault, since many of them under perform due to poor facilities. You can’t condition them well, if the facilities are sub par in comparison to the competition.

So in reality, both can be done. You can have high academic standards, and recruit a good class. It however is tougher than what other school face, and it puts another layer of regulation that may slow the process down. This may benefit the AD and the school in the end though. With students that are smarter, they enter making smarter decisions, and have better self control, so we should have less issues with players messing around with agents or getting kick backs. In other words, better self control, less likely to get Reggie Bush type players, or people who just turn out to be creeps like Matt Leinart, and less likely to be put on probation.

by wingsabre on Nov 8, 2011 7:20 PM PST reply actions  

A couple of thoughts

First, one of the problems is that it’s not so much the admissions but the fact that there is less support for athletes at UCLA and keeping up with a quarterly system is really tough. I got straight A’s my first year at UCLA, then went down to a B+ average once I started rowing. I’m pretty sure I didn’t get dumber, I just didn’t have enough time to study. And I wasn’t even on scholarship.

Secondly, it is ridiculous to think that a few “less qualified” players on a football team somehow sully the academic image of a whole university. Ooh, they might bring down the average SAT score by 0.05 points! If universities refuse to compensate the players more appropriately, they should at least ensure that they graduate.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Nov 8, 2011 9:44 PM PST reply actions  

Why does a big name coach matter?

Is there any evidence that suggests big name coaches are substantially more successful than normal name coaches after taking over a program?

Is a big name coach as much baloney as is hot mutual fund manager?

by Shrub on Nov 8, 2011 10:06 PM PST reply actions  

Not once they move to a new program

See, e.g., off the top of my head, Steve Spurrier, Rich Rodriguez, Pete Carrol, Rick Pitino, Brian Kelly.

And, most apropos, Stormin Norman Chow.

I am absolutely certain I could compose a longer list of big name coaches that achieved mediocrity at their new programs then you could compile of big name coaches that duplicated their prior success.

by Shrub on Nov 9, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Huh?

Spurrier has established USC as national power within SEC.

Pitino has had issues at Lousiville … but on the court he took them back to a Final-4.

Pete Carroll example is not even relevant here because he never moved from a program to program.

Kelly is only his second year at ND and despite two losses to two good teams have them in position for a big bowl game.

And Norm Chow example is not relevant since we are talking about head coaches.

You don’t seem to be interested in a smart conversation. If this is how you are going to play, play somewhere else.

by Nestor on Nov 9, 2011 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Shrub, you pose a tautology

You said “Is there any evidence that suggests big name coaches are substantially more successful than normal name coaches after taking over a program?” Or to put it another way, is there any evidence that coaches who are quite successful (i.e., big name coaches") are more successful than normal name coaches (i.e., coaches who aren’t as successful.)? Yes, Shrub, coaches who are more successful than coaches who are less successful are more successful. And a cat is a cat, too.

I

by Fox 71 on Nov 9, 2011 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Big name is one way of describing the target

You can also look at it as a search for a highly regarded coach, someone without the name recognition of an Urban Meyer or Chris Peterson, but with the track record running a smaller program or assisting (meaningfully) at a larger one and respect of the CFB community that reasonably makes knowledgeable people think he would be a successful head coach. A candidate with this type of background is also likely to have other options, and leverage in any contract negotiations.

formerly bruinhoo

by Patroclus on Nov 9, 2011 9:57 PM PST up reply actions  

WTF

FROM ESPN: http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/ucla/post/_/id/8614/bruins-to-play-at-cowboys-stadium

Did DG really just spend money to have the UCLA football team play at the Cowboys Stadium? Does this guy really think that with our current team, he’ll come anywhere close to filling the 90k stadium? Lemme get this right, spend money NOT fixing the program, take away home court advantage.

by Ganplosive on Nov 9, 2011 12:00 AM PST reply actions  

Let me guess

Potential opponents are Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Baylor, Oklahoma.

Actually, looking at our actual 2012 schedule, we have Rice, Houston and Nebraska. It could be any of those teams but I’m guessing Nebraska…though the other two are Texas teams…

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Nov 9, 2011 7:41 AM PST up reply actions  

It may be more than admission standards

Once an athlete is admitted, what about the majors UCLA offers? I understand the school dropped some of the majors that the jocks used to take so that they could graduate….. Kinesiology and other “P.E.” related majors for example. I have forgotten some of the others, but I understood UCLA no longer offer some of these. Anybody know for sure?

Mensgym

by Mensgym on Nov 9, 2011 10:59 AM PST reply actions  

Kinesiology

was a pretty tough major! Yes, this is part of the problem though. While I don’t advocate providing Underwater Basketweaving majors, UCLA could be a little more accommodating in its major offerings. Besides, if a student athlete decides that his sport is extremely important and deserves more attention than his grades (i.e., Olympic-level athletes and others), UCLA should be helping them with their quest instead of hindering them.

But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.

by tasser10 on Nov 9, 2011 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

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