Pushback Against The Deafening Trojan Whining
Bumped - Great points by Karl II, and not the only ones that Southern California is missing - BN eds
USC fans constantly complain about supposedly overly harsh penalties and unfairly losing the appeal. Well, I am sick of hearing it. Below are the arguments I hear the most and the reasons why I humbly believe they are wrong.
The sanctions are not fair. The athletic director, coaches and current players were not even at the school when the alleged violations occurred.
There are two problems with this argument. First, the reason the school hired a new athletic director and coaches is because the last regime did such a piss poor job on compliance. Pete Carroll jumped ship when he found out significant sanctions were coming down and Mike Garrett was fired for being arrogant and incompetent in his handling of the whole affair. The new administration is a direct result of the bad behavior, not some unrelated coincidence.
Second, and more importantly, the timing of the imposition of sanctions is primarily due to the ineptitude/lack of investigative authority of the NCAA and USC’s early embracement of a tactic of non-cooperation. The NCAA investigation lasted about four years. Since the NCAA has no authority to compel testimony or production of documents (at least with respect persons who are not employed by member institutions), it had to sit on the sidelines and wait for evidence to be drawn out in the Bush civil litigation. If USC was truly concerned about sanctions affecting players who were “in elementary and junior high school” when the infractions happened, then USC should have opened the Kimono and let the NCAA have unfettered access to all relevant evidence, including former players and agents. I know-USC has no formal control over former players and agents (see above). But it does have informal control. USC lets former players use practice facilities, attend school functions, come back to school for their degree, stand on the sidelines during games, etc. USC also gave (or used to give) agents significant access to facilities and players. Threatening to take away these privileges at best would have led these people to sit for depositions or answer discovery and at worst would have shown the NCAA USC was doing everything it could to cooperate (even if these third parties continued to refuse to cooperate).
Instead, USC provided the minimum amount of access possible, and Reggie Bush and his lawyers stonewalled until a settlement was reached. I don’t fault Bush in this regard-that is what many defendants in litigation choose to do. USC, however, took the wrong approach. An organization facing a governmental or regulatory investigation will always get the most favorable outcome by cooperating early and often throughout the investigation. The appearance of cooperation in the eyes of the investigators is probably the single most important mitigating factor when discretionary decisions are made by investigators during an investigation. USC blew that part of it and is at least partially responsible for the lengthy process.
The NCAA is arbitrary in its enforcement process. If USC received a two year bowl ban and a loss of 30 scholarships, then Auburn should have gotten the death penalty.
Hey, no argument here. Just because one institution was able to avoid an appropriate penalty when caught violating the rules, it does not mean that another institution should get such a break. If this were true, it would be the exception that swallows the rule and there would be no need for any rules. The error was not failing to cut USC a break; the error was giving a break to Auburn (if in fact it received a break). Once credible evidence of Cam Newton’s father shopping his son’s services surfaced, Newton should have been declared ineligible and Auburn should have been disqualified. At a minimum, Newton should have been disqualified.
The other point here is that the NCAA investigation in all likelihood is not yet complete. If new evidence of an infraction comes to light, the NCAA will certainly revisit the issue and could still rule Newton ineligible for the 2010 football season and/or take away some or all of Auburn’s 2010 victories. Newton could also face pressure to return his Heisman trophy and we could end up with Bush II. It is still too early to tell.
By the way, the non-stop complaining by USC people about Ohio State is also premature. The NCAA is surely investigating recent events and has not yet reached an enforcement decision. If the NCAA gets all the way through the process, and if it fails to sanction Ohio State and/or Jim Tressel, then USC will have something to complain about. Unless and until that happens, they should hold their collective tongues.
The NCAA has made the standard of review on appeal too high of a hurdle. Having to show an abuse of discretion is virtually impossible and no school can overcome it.
The NCAA changed the Bylaw applicable to appeals of decisions of the Committee on Infractions (COI) in 2008. In order to overturn a COI decision, the Infractions Appeals Committee must find that penalties imposed by the COI were so excessive as to constitute an “abuse of discretion.” Many Trojans have complained that this standard is impossible to meet.
It is true that this standard of review is somewhat tough to overcome, but I believe there are sound policy reasons for having a high standard. First, the change was approved by school presidents, so if USC did not like it, they should have spoken up during the amendment process. Either they did not or if they did, they could not convince others to vote it down. Either way, the rule change went through the legislative process and it is now the law of the NCAA land. All member institutions have to work with the new rule; not just USC.
Second, the NCAA has limited investigatory resources. The annual enforcement budget of the NCAA is not disclosed, but the NCAA has 38 investigators to police over 1,281 member institutions (this includes all divisions and sports). Once the NCAA commits to and completes an investigation, the results must be given weight. This encourages targets to cooperate at early stages and put their best arguments forward during the investigation. Otherwise, schools will be incentivized to not cooperate and do everything they can to block the investigation in the hopes that the COI does not receive enough evidence to find an infraction, and if the COI does get lucky enough to find enough evidence of misdeeds, the school can simply throw hundreds of thousands of dollars into an appeal and essentially get a second trial de novo.
Third, even though the standard of review is high, it is not unreasonable. Pursuant to NCAA Bylaw 32.10.4.2, the following criteria may be used to show an abuse of discretion:
(a) A finding is clearly contrary to the evidence presented to the COI;
(b) The facts found by the COI do not constitute a violation of the Association’s rules; or
(c) There was a procedural error and but for the error, the COI would not have made the finding of violation.
There is plenty of room here to argue a mistake was made. Did the facts not support the conclusion? Assuming the finding of facts was accurate, did it not result in a violation? Did the COI misinterpret the rules or apply the wrong penalties? USC spent thousands of dollars on outside counsel to go against an underfunded and outmanned NCAA staff and the Infractions Appeal Committee still denied the appeal.
The reality is USC did not like the factual findings and tried to obscure that dislike by arguing the standard of review is inherently unfair.
The USC case is not analogous to infractions committed by schools who received harsh penalties. In those other cases, either coaches or boosters provided impermissible benefits to student athletes, while in the USC matter, agents provided benefits.
This argument completely ignores the brown paper bag full of cash that Tim Floyd (allegedly) handed to O.J. Mayo. Even so, this argument also ignores a basic principle of the NCAA-that member institutions are responsible for ensuring compliance with the rules and promoting fair play. After its four year investigation, the COI found that USC lacked institutional control:
When citing the lack of institutional control finding, the committee noted the university failed to heed clear warning signs; did not have proper procedures in place to monitor rules compliance; failed to regulate access to practice and facilities, including locker rooms; and in some instances failed to take a proactive stance or investigate concerns. As a result, three different individuals who triggered NCAA agent rules committed violations involving the former football and men's basketball student-athletes. (NCAA Press Release, dated June 10, 2010).
USC thought they figured out a way to cheat without being punished as cheaters by creating an environment where people not affiliated with the university would provide excess benefits, thereby giving the school plausible deniability. If they kept the compliance department small, if the coaches purposefully looked the other way and didn’t ask questions about suspicious behavior and activities, if the school allowed anyone and everyone into the locker room and practice facilities (even, to their surprise, agents!), then USC could argue with a straight face that neither the school nor any of its boosters did anything wrong.
Another way to look at it is this. Every time USC coaches or staff looked the other way when an agent came into the room, saw a guy driving a tricked out car, etc., they had to paint a 1 square foot box on the floor and avoid walking in the box. By the time the NCAA was done with its investigation and all of the facts came to light, Pete Carroll and his staff were stuck in the corner with paint completely covering the floor and the exit was on the other side of the room.
The NCAA added penalties for lack of institutional control to address this very problem. Schools don’t get to bury their heads in the sand and complain about being treated unfairly when they come up for air. USC implicitly admitted this when they fired Mike Garrett and significantly increased their compliance staff.
USC got caught cheating. Deal with it. Pat Haden was a good hire and he looks like he is cleaning things up. Lane Kiffin is a joke, but he will be gone after he has 3 or 4 poor seasons and they can hire a real coach. UCLA is still stuck in a decade (plus) long self-imposed football nightmare that we cannot escape. Hopefully we change that, but relatively speaking USC is still in better shape so please STOP YOUR INCESSANT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE NCAA.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Good read. Well Done, Karl
The best thing you can do for your children is to love their mother. John Wooden
They just make me laugh!
On the one hand…we’re so tough, fight on! And then in the next breathe…we’re being picked on, poor us. Poor confused babies.
Go Bruins!
Great job, Karl.
Reason. One of the great differences between here and there.
I, too, laugh whenver I hear the trogies crying about being punished, like it is so inconceivable to them that they could actually be penalized for cheating. Such arrogance.
And personally, I hope the NCAA grows a pair and throws the book at Auburn and tOSU as well. It’s less surprising to see the NCAA penalize a west coast team, as much as they deserved it, and probably more. But now let’s see them do it to their precious Buckeyes and SEC.
greg in denver, UCLA guy for life - BruinsNation.com
OSU is going down hard.
The list of allegations against the Buckeyes and Jim Tressell are as obvious and unavoidable as anything that occurred over there.
Auburn, however, might just skate. Very little new info coming out surrounding Cam’s allegation. Plus the NFL is setting him to be one their future poster boys.
That’s just how I see it.
The best thing you can do for your children is to love their mother. John Wooden
There's really no evidence against Newton.
Asking for money and receiving none is not a violation. The only way anything could be proven against them would be if someone paid Mr. Newton, and had proof. That’s it. There’s no proof, despite all the allegations, and there’s evidence that he recieved anything. Anyone saying the situation with Cam is equal to the SC situation is not correct.
"Every day was a good day at UCLA." -Coach John Wooden
Yup
I realize there is a difference between wishing ill on the $cum across town and hoping tOSU gets its comeuppance, but I hope they don’t get away with “Tressel was the problem, now he’s gone, don’t punish us” any more than $c skates by with “Timmeh and Cheatey are gone, it’s not fair to punish the kids left behind”.
However, in the trogan case, they had the double whammy of football and basketball with major issues at the same time, making a ‘lack of institutional control’ charge a little more convincing.
The disconcerting thing about both cases is that they can both say “we would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for those pesky legal investigations”. This both highlights the toothlessness of the NCAA, and also makes me worry that pretty much every team in the country may have skeletons in the closet. I have very slight reluctance to pile on to all these cases partly because of fear that the boot might be on the other foot at some point – see tOSU fans mocking Michigan for their “practicing too much” scandal. I don’t believe it about UCLA basketball – no high profile recruit should need improper benefits to play for the most storied program in the country – and if we’ve been cheating at football we haven’t been doing a very good job of it. Here’s hoping fervently that we are running the cleanest programs in the NCAA.
by VeniceBruin on May 31, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
We have to win something first
before anyone is giving our guys “free” tatoos! Our guys have no gold pants to give away!
formerly Westwood78
by PhoenixBruin on May 31, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
We've got to stop pretending like the NCAA is a fair and impartial governing body - it isn't.
Let’s face it, they’ve got us on the ’it’s not fair’ part. Objectively, the penalties far outweigh the provable rule violations. And forgive me, but I’m one of those who believe in punishment for things you can prove, as opposed to the “well, even if he didn’t do this one, he’s a bad guy who I just know did other bad things that.” Plus, we all know the magnitude of punishment was levied primarily based on the “f*ck you NCAA” attitude of ‘SC – hence retaliation, not rule violation based. So for us to say the sanctions were absolutely fair strains credibility and probably shouldn’t be done.
HOWEVER, the one argument we should be making is this: life isn’t fair – deal with it and move on. Maybe a conciliatory “sucks to be you – now stop crying” message would be a nice gesture to the other side.
Totally Disagree
You are right in that life is generally not fair, but you are dead wrong that the NCAA was not fair in this case. If anything, USC got off easy. The whole Mike Ornstein deal did not factor into the SC/Bush case (at least not to my knowledge), but to me that was the worst offense. There was credible, tangible evidence that Mike Ornstein gave the Bushes money and paid for travel. I think USC got off easy.
Even with the news today about Tressel resigning, I have already heard d bag USC friends bitching that now Ohio State will not get penalized and they will get a better coach. Of course they will get penalized. And it is doubtful they will end up with another coach who wins as much as Tressel did (even though he chokes like hell in big games).
The point of this post is that every USC douchebag in the world is running around screaming as loud as they can that the NCAA has some agenda against them. In reality, quite the opposite is true. The NCAA barely does its job on the enforcement side.
Fair? What *is* fairness?
Whether or not something is ‘fair’ depends entirely on personal bias.
Ask anyone who has taught at a school with wealthy students about ‘elite entitlement’
and the fairness of grades. Gentlemen don’t get B’s and C’s – because they have gentlemen instructors who understand that people sometimes have unfortunate things happen and it is appropriate to mention it and move on, one doesn’t belabor the point.
Unfortunate things happened under Pete Carroll’s watch and they have gone, and now USC has been publicly embarrassed. Piling punishments is just being vindictive – and worse: low class. The NCAA really isn’t worth of government USC – because they don’t “get it” College sports is a gentleman’s game …
by KnudsenRockne on May 30, 2011 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I really wish
it were a gentleman’s game. Perhaps that is the way the Morgan Center treats it, but it’s the excessive money that is generated that corrupts it. The prime examples are the Fiesta Bowl, the compensation of the CEOs of bowl committees, and the BCS as a whole.
by BruinFanGA on May 31, 2011 7:17 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I was being facetious
Or rather, I was (mockingly) speaking from the perspective of the
elites who feel that the rules don’t really apply to them (rules are
intended for the coarse type of person – e.g. commoners and their
ilk).
by KnudsenRockne on May 31, 2011 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
SC got hit hard for the cover up, not the crime
Garrett, Carroll, and the lot would not admit wronddoing til the end. They cheated, and were unrepetant.
If, when this came out, they would have admitted it, and applied some minor sanctions, the NCAA would have accepted it and moved on.
The NCAA is based on self reporting and self enforcement. When schools or coaches know or should have known something wrong was happening and turn a blind eye, that is when sanctions get really tough. That is exactly what happened here.
Why do you think that is unfair? Do you think it is unfair to place more of a burden on the schools, ADs and coaches to act when they know something wrong is happening? I think that makes way more sense than punishing a school for the rogue acts of a single ineligeble player.
The whole way the NCAA is set up doesn’t work if people won’t self report, and people won’t self report unless the sanctions are so severe from not self reporting it makes up for the upside of letting things slide.
by silverlakebruin on May 31, 2011 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Right
and this is the very heart of the matter, well said. And If could add, the NCAA has no real power to compel anyone to give evidence. It is a PRIVATE organization whose rules come from some strange nexus of contract law and a bare-bones implementation of Due Process.
The NCAA works best if a school ponies-up to its misdeeds and admits that it has done wrong. USC seemed to drag its feet, turn a blind-eye, and basically dare the NCAA to come after them. It took awhile but the NCAA eventually did. The severity of USC’s punishment is more about this possible purposeful obfuscation of an NCAA investigation in my opinion.
Did you ever hear SC turning over inculpatory evidence like tOSU did with those emails?
EGO TROIORUM MALLEUS SUM
by Bruins102NCAA on May 31, 2011 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
i disagree also
just$c* still has football and basketball teams. I think both deserved the death penalty. Hwn, it’s likely that I’m older than you. (I’m pretty much older than everyone, including, well, really old people.) I have been watching just$c* get away with murder since before OJ. A guy I worked with while I was in high school told me his dad was a member of the trogan bench, and his job was to handle payoffs to athletes. (This guy drove a Mercedes convertible in 1964 when he went to just$c* – the bucks he had made his story credible.) All those kids from the ghetto whose parents are struggling to get by end up driving brand new cars when they get to the trogan campus. (I drove a 52 Chevy, and once got pulled over on the freeway for going to slow, and I was going as fast as I could.) They live way, way beyond their means, so where is the money coming from?
Just$c* is an institutional cheater. It’s in their blood. Ethical Pat was on the team when Marv Goux was an assistant, and handled sales of players’ tickets. The trOJies cannot change and will not change because they see no need for change. I am confident that the under-the-table funds are flowing as fast and as furiously as ever.
just$c* has been treated unfairly, in a sense, because fairness would have given them the death penalty.
(By the way, I always liked my dad’s definition of fairness, generally given in the context of something that was happening to me that Just Was Not Fair: “Fairness depends on whether it’s my ox in your cornfield, or your ox in my cornfield.”)
Jeez - did I somehow get into a trogan blog? Don't you guys know nothin'?
An ox is a big blue thing that hangs out with Paul Bunyan, usually in a cornfield.
Why don't you keep making up more mythical creatures? Maybe it was a Unicorn.
"Every day was a good day at UCLA." -Coach John Wooden
This is not a fairness issue
It’s hard to tell if you are mocking the Trojan air of entitlement or just acknowledging it as something that exists and can’t be changed.
If, however, you are really suggesting that piling on punishments is just vindictive I disagree. If a guy robs 10 banks, is it vindictive to try him for all 10 robberies when 1 will suffice? No. If USC (or any school for that matter) commits a number of infractions, they should be punished for all of them.
At bottom, I really just wrote this because I am sick of all of the Trojans bitching all of the time, not because I advocate USC being punished further. Read my last paragraph again. All I am saying is Trojan fans should shut up and move on.
But the big crime was the cover-up
A better analogy is if a landlord knows a tenant is a thief he (the landlord) might not be punished – especially if he cooperates – but if he helps the thief destroy evidence he’s in deep trouble.
by KnudsenRockne on May 31, 2011 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Great post
but I’m not sure that we can rag on $C for Kiffin not being a real coach when we haven’t had much luck for the last decade or so with coaches :-)
On second thought, why not…
$C is really good about citing the 4th law of thermodynamics when faced with their own shortcomings…

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