UCLA at Oregon State Basketball Roundup: This Loss Falls on Howland
by DCBruins on Jan 20, 2012 5:45 AM PST
in Basketball
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UCLA's offense played a good game but it was not enough. As Coach Ben Howland said:
"We shot 57 percent and lost," an incredulous Howland said. "That doesn't happen very often."
The reason UCLA lost was part of their defense was awful. It forced the offense to be perfect. The offense had two bad streaks, waiting 3 and half minutes to score its first bucket and falling down 8-0. UCLA crawled back from that to take a 10-9 lead. But in the second half a similar lull happen and UCLA was to fall behind and never overcome that.
Never was the mismatch in tempo more evident than a short stretch midway through the second half, with the game still very much undecided.
After Bruins center Joshua Smith tied the game at 51, Oregon State went on a 7-0 run to regain control as UCLA committed three straight turnovers.
"They hurt us by speeding us up," UCLA head coach Ben Howland said. "We got sped up; one time we had a 3-on-2 and instead of attacking the basket, we're pulling up for a three and Jerime (Anderson) threw it away to (Tyler) Lamb. We made some mistakes like that when we were going faster than we were used to going. We let the pressure get to us."
Added Anderson: "That was definitely the turning point in the game. It gave them a little momentum and they carried it until the end of the game. We were never able to get all the way back, close to even tying."
The offense was not perfect. They made mistakes but if this was football you would say the offense did its job. The problem was they had to be almost perfect to win because the defense was so bad:
The 87 points were the most UCLA has given up this season and the Beavers' highest output against the Bruins since a 97-96 double-overtime win in 1991.
Before the game the experts at Bruin Report Online wrote the game hinged on CBH playing a zone. CBH played it for only four possessions. While it did not work in those four possessions, you would have think he would have tried it a bit more when the other team is shooting 58% with maybe different personnel?
When we went to the zone, they scored three of the four times so we went away from it," Lazeric Jones said.
The scary thing was the way Oregon State got their points. Yes their PG made some shots including a long three pointer to give OSU the lead at halftime. Many of his shots were tough and decently defended. Jared Cunningham got his points but many came late in the game when UCLA was desperately fouling. It was inside where OSU KILLED UCLA.
"They got a lot of baskets right around the rim," Jones said. "Their guards made a lot of good shots. They made some tough shots, but a lot came right under the rim. Hook shots, layups, stuff defensively we have to stop."
Forward David Wear said the defensive game plan was centered on stopping Cunningham and Starks and the Oregon State post surprised the Bruins off guard a little bit.
"We got caught off guard because we were focusing mainly on Cunningham and their guards," Wear said. "The posts were kind of sneaking under us and establishing deep position and getting us in trouble that way. We gave up way too many easy buckets."
The problem wasn't OSU "stars" in the backcourt but their starting three a big 6'7" Devon Collier and other inside players:
Devon Collier added 20 points and repeatedly burned Bruins defenders in the paint.
"We got hurt today in the paint with out defense," Howland said.
"They just kept giving it to me," Collier said, "and I just kept going to work."
Because UCLA was unwilling to go zone, unprepared for OSU's Collier (who scored 21 his last game against ASU), and was unable to adjust, the good offensive game was wasted. Jerime Anderson had a career best 9 assists, Lazeric Jones had 8 assists to only one turnover, and the Wear Twins shot 16-22 but it didn't matter. Sorry Jerime I have to disagree with you:
"This loss is on us," Anderson said.
For the UCLA players did what they were told to do. Sure they had a few lasps but OSU guards were 12-26 with some of those buckets late. The rest of the team, the bigs were 17-24. The game plan was to stop the guards. CBH your players, for the most part, executed well on offense and okay against the key part of OSU's offense (their guards) and still lost because UCLA couldn't handle OSU's bigs, at all.
CBH you need an answer Saturday against the Ducks. Your team is working hard but your time is running out.
Go Bruins.
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Time is running out indeed
And the key here on the big picture is pressure will need to be on Chianti. We can’t let Chianti make a hoops hire. It just can’t happen because he will find a way to screw it up.
If UCLA doesn’t make the tournament, Bruin alums and donors should not support this athletic program in any way until Chianti is gone. The state of the program is on Howland but it’s his boss who is ultimately responsible given there has been no accountability in Westwood for last few years.
DG should be gone regardless......
The idea of making the tournament with 8 losses already and against some questionable opponents is highly unlikely. They’d have to win the PAC12 tournament – only route. They are not going to win out.
We can’t keep doing this as alumni. “if this …then that” time and time again. At some point, which I feel we have passed already, we all need to stand together and make sure change happens. We are fragmented and mostly passive.
Not ripping on you N. Just hard to take this mediocre crap day in and day out from our AD and the athletic program. For BBall – we should always win the PAC 12 reg season and always smack teams like OSU, $uc
Nope, I totally get where you are coming from
DG needs to be gone regardless. However, the urgency is going to be even more intense if it becomes clear that the hoops team is not going to the Dance. We can’t let him pick our next hoops coach. I am at the point I will be OKAY with having Howland back for a lameduck season next year ONLY IF we get a new AD by this spring.
making the tournament..
to lose in the first or at best in the second round..What ’s the use?
UCLA is a national program
and should get that national exposure. Lots of other big time programs lose in the first or second round, like Michigan State last year. You just have to remain in the conversation to remain relevant.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
TAKE YOUR TIME!!
At the 6 minute mark left in the game, Derek Rose, sorry, I mean Lazeric Jones was walking the ball up the court with no sense of urgency. As ususal, my HDTV was in jeapordy of being mistaken for a batting cage taking rolled up socks in the middle of the strike zone. At the 3 minute mark, things had not changed as he (LJ) was still holding the ball at the top of the key letting precious time off the clock (was anybody coaching). It wasn’t until 1:08 remaining did UCLA say “hey we need to get some quick baskets.” TOO FRICKIN LATE!
Clearly you didn't read the post
which states that the main reason we lost was from being sped up and playing a style that doesn’t suit the team…
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Fully agree, but
at some point you have to speed up. Being sped up from the start killed us. When it’s late in the game, though, there’s hypothetically a chance for us to come back if we can get enough points, and at that point we’re taking 25-30 seconds per possession, something’s wrong.
Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.
I do agree with that
but the issue is more that they can’t play defense and get stops. Howland’s previous teams didn’t speed up, they just clamped down on defense and still ran their regular offense.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Jones
may lead us in scoring every night, but he hurts the team more than he helps, IMO. LZ went 6-17 from the field last night, everyone else shot 67%!!! On three occasions in the first half, he could have passed to an open teammate but elected to shoot wild floaters that power-bricked off the glass. Why doesn’t BH just sit him on the bench and let NP play. At least their is a possible future for him. LZ seems to think he is trying out for the league…
Although I am fearful of the next regime of guards,
I will be happy when Jones and Anderson are out of here.
Even the announcers constantly made the point about the guards not padding into the post, the reckless drives, and their slowness around picks.
+1
3 FG attempts for Smith compared to 17 for Smith. I have been a huge advocate for Howland but this is embarrassing. Ask Kyle Anderson and Shabazz who they want to be our coach and lets move on from this crap.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 20, 2012 7:54 AM PST up reply actions
Should say
17 for Zeek. I’m too angry to be coherent.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 20, 2012 7:54 AM PST up reply actions
This was one of CBH worse coaching efforts.
Sorry to repeat myslf, but I don’t understand the lineup he used. Yes OSU was good offesnsively-but this is relative to a miserable PAC-12. I wanted to cry eveytme I saw a Wear beaten back door or letting OSU have and offensive rebound. And the guards don’t play D and are selfish.
Shame on on JS for letting down his team and fans coming into this season. However, the what is left of this team doesn’t work. I think I would try Smith, 2 Wears, Jones and Lamb in all zone, with a lot of playing time for Powell and Stover showing different looks.
Jones does not play for......
……. the team …….. but to try to impress the NBA’s Scouts!
I don't understand Howland's lineup.
I missed the first few minutes. Why did he start both Wears, and played that 3 guard, two Wear lineup for most of the game?
Shame on Howland
He runs out of time outs with 8 minutes left in the game and totally burned Zeek out. Zeek played 37 minutes running the offense and guarding one of OSU’s best players. The possession that this was clearly evident was when Zeek lazily went around a screen and Starks hit a 3. We were down 4 points and making a mini run and a stop there would have pushed all momentum back to UCLA. Shame on you Howland for not managing minutes more efficiently.
OT, Larry Scott needs new referees. 20 PF for UCLA compared to 12 to OSU. Smith and the Wears were getting hit every time going to the basket.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 20, 2012 7:50 AM PST reply actions
Another loss for Howland.
He has fully spent whatever political capital he had from his early days and is now into deficit. My only question remains how a new coach is picked with a better process than the one which selected mora, jr.
He has made this team unwatchable. Great job, Ben.
Random Thoughts
1. Slow Starts — are killing this team. Falling behind and having to scramble back has its costs. First, the energy used to catch up is energy not available at the end of the game. And, if we made the “catch up” runs at the start of games, we’d be ahead and not constantly playing from behind. Why not play for the 10-0 run at the start of the game and not wait until we are down 8-0 before adjusting?
IMHO we fall behind, so often, because we start the wrong 5, we come out trying to play man D (I can’t bring myself to say we play man D because I don’t think we do) and we don’t make changes until we are in a deep hole.
CBH — are you really to stubborn to change the way we start games? You are a smart guy — can you see the pattern? The cause and effect?
We usually dig out after the first few substitutions. I can understand not starting Smith. But, if D. Wear is getting beat badly inside, why not either start Stover or bring him in quickly? I understand Josh’s limitations in his all around game, but why not either start him, or Stover to establish some inside presence on D — with the zone. And, make it a point to run some offense through Josh when he’s in. Even if doubled, he is a very good outlet passer. Let him touch the ball. We can always jack up outside shots. Can’t we at least try to go inside? This was supposed to be the strength of our game.
2. Overplaying Zeke: People can complain all they want about Zeke , but he’s doing exactly what his coach has been telling him to do, shoot often and try to score. The problem is that he’s running out of energy at key points in the game. Want to complain that he’s coming up the court too slow toward the end of the game (I did in the game thread) — how about the fact that he played 37 minutes last night? Zeke just runs out of energy and it’s clear in his legs and late game effort. I also think he’s the biggest victim of the fall behind and frenzied comeback at the start of the game. He doesn’t just play long minutes — he has to play through those catch up frenzies.
3. It’s easy to complain about our D — it’s not the BenBall D of the past — but, in all fairness, OSU made some amazing shots last night while covered well. That will happen. And, that’s why we really can’t afford spells of sloppy play. We should be able to weather those moments.
4. Last night, when the game was close and the score in the 50’s, someone in the thread, I think it was DCBruin, posted that it was “scary time” and we all knew what he meant (and he was absolutely right). At that point, I felt the same way. I had little confidence that we would have the right players, playing the right scheme, with the energy to do so, to pull away. With this team, I have no long-term confidence. I never feel that we are playing well and will play well and that no matter what happens, we will react correctly and pull out a win.
5. I guess losing on the road is to be expected. Our problem is that we have an entire season on the road. We don’t have a home court advantage, anywhere. Not to beat a dead horse, but I have to give this team credit for the fact that they are playing under terrible circumstances for the entire year. There were better alternatives but Strap On missed them. Part of what we see in this team, with its lack of clear identity, is a team that is constantly on the road like those teams that play the Globe Trotters. Our players need a comfort zone or nest — and don’t have one.
6. CBH is here next year — no matter what. And, right now, I support that. It’s not just that I don’t want to give Strap On another hire. I actually want to allow CBH to open the new facility with next year’s recruits. I think it will be clear that next year is his last if he cannot win with them — and I’m hoping that he will teach and use them well. In the interim, we need to hire a new AD.
So, after basketball last year I could not wait for football. Oops. So after football this year I could not wait for basketball. Oops. Now I can’t wait for football next year. Bruin madness.
sjh
I don't want to hear about "amazing shots"
When the other team is shooting 58%. That sounds way too much like Lavin telling us the other team was playing at that “magical level”. Maybe their amazing shots don’t go in. Then they’re shooting 50%. As if that’s so much better.
Context?
I was trying to make clear that those things happen and that’s why we can’t be sloppy or ineffective. I think that’s what I said.
Odd shots will go in. They will go in on a team that plays great D. But, they won’t beat that team.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Jan 20, 2012 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
Sorry
I’ve just been hearing things along similar lines all season long starting from LMU. Eventually you have to concede that these shots aren’t miraculous anymore when they continue to go in against us. I know you weren’t the one who said it back then, but seeing it now after yet another incredibly bad overall defensive performance is grating.
Starks did hit some amazing shots
including a 26 foot three before the half. But that is not why we lost. We lost because their bigs were 17-24. That is what cost us, not some of Starks amazing shots, besides their guards were only 12-26.
That's pathetic
and another reason Stover should have played more. Josh Smith just seems like dead weight on defense. Can’t say much more about the Wears either. Can we please stop with the Mater Dei recruits?
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
the conclusion ben must go
While i supported and thoroughly agreed with the effort this year to convince Guerrero to fire Neuheisel, and also completely agree with the goal of firing Guerrero, i am not on board with the thinking Ben Howland has lost what he had when he took us to 3 Final Fours, albeit without preparing the Bruins to deal with the play of at least 2 and once all 3 of the other teams in the finals, it seems to me where he has fallen down—-but may still get back up—-is in recruiting, which i think explains a lot of the play since our last solid basketball season.
So far we’ve improved—-i hope and think—-the football team with Mora, and we’ll see about that. I hope we’re getting closer to removing Guerrero, tho don’t see the evidence that makes me conclude he definitely will go. While i don’t like the basketball team we’ve got because it’s floundering, i think it’s the mix on the court and don’t think it’s solely the coach on the bench. Ben’s just got too much behind him for have lost all the ability he had to bring us to those 3 finals. Therefore, with this logic firmly grounding me, i am not so enthusiastic as others who may merely be on a kill-the-authority-figure kick. Ben could be fired—-not by Guerrero of course—-and go to another school where he might win an NCAA championship. I don’t want that to happen anywhere but at Ucla, of course. So i’m not at all on the train many of the posters at Bruin Nation are on. It ‘s not that anyone needs to convince me, but for many who think like me to be convinced Ben must go, we need much greater evidence that it’s him per se versus his recruiting, which i have definitely found wanting.
I’ve read the comments delineating errors in coaching, so regurgitating those on their own will not be enough. If i can be convinced with other facts about Howland’s coaching that prove his best seasons are irrevocably behind us, not only i would be convinced we need a change but i think many thousands of alumni would. The evidence to change the minds of those of us, alumni or not, who have faith in Howland, hasn’t been presented.
Doesn't matter if you think they haven't been presented
With these kinds of results, you will be in an ever shrinking minority. What has taken place this season speaks for itself.
Many thousands of alums are already turned off
You can check out the thousands of empty seats — at the garbage arena Chianti calls “home” for UCLA basketball.
OSU was more talented than UCLA
Think about that. Let it sink in. Shouldn’t that scare you?
My dad never sees UCLA games and he said...
OSU looks like they have better players… I am biased so I will say no… but they did look like they were flying and we were sometimes stuck on mud!
your dad is right..
OSA has better players and coach…
In spite of Howland's foibles, I don't think Robinson is a better coach
Although he definitely out coached Howland last night. OSU does have better athletes however, something that seemed inconceivable just a couple of years ago.
I don't think Robinson out coached him
but he did out recruit him, at least net post transfers
Well, OSU dictated the pace of the game long enough to win
That’s gotta be worth something. And that he’s out-recruited Howland is just absolutely nuts.
The disaster classes of 08 and 09 continue to pay reverse dividends for UCLA
But Howland could’ve mitigated the damage from those two classes. Chasing after McCallum without a backup plan led to Zeek and Larry Drew, and no frosh PGs until at least 2013. Sticking with Dragovic led to Moser’s exit (and arguably, Nelson’s) and eventually, the Wear twins.
Exactly
The 08 and 09 classes were disasters but Howland had his chance to mitigate those damages through viable recruiting strategy (which we have discussed number of times before). Then you have had the situation with terrible personnel management and in game tactical preparation.
What is also interesting is the talking about about Howland going 8-3 in post Nelson era. If you dive into the records of those 8 wins only the ones against Richmond and Arizona were semi legit eventhough that’s a stretch because both of those teams are struggling.
Of the 3 losses the ones against Stanford and Oregon State were inexcusable and attributed to Howland’s bad in-game decisions. Now looking back at it, even if booted Nelson early in the season, I doubt we win any other game besides LMU. We’d probably go 8-3 with Nelson anyway because the competition has been so freaking atrocious.
Much Too Much Has Been Made of Addition By Subtraction
Reeves Nelson was not the real problem with this team. CBH got bailed out for a while because we won after Nelson left and everyone was able to say we were “cured”. We are not. The same problems exist. Yes we might have a happier team but it is not playing all that much better.
We probably would have won those games with Reeves, bad attitude and all. And, may not have lost last night had we had him.
I’m not saying he should be on the team.
I’m just saying it is wrong to credit CBH with fixing the problems on this team by getting rid of Reeves. The problems did not go away.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Jan 20, 2012 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
I think there has been some improvement ...
… the team’s offense has been a little more efficient. The rotations are better. However, those performances came against some really awful teams. Nelson was a huge problem but the bigger problem is Howland was way to late in his attempts to discipline him.
People think Howland is some sort of disciplinarian. He is far from it from what I have heard from folks very close to the program.
Disciplinarian?
Consistency is the key to teaching discipline.
CBH is far from consistent.
Who thinks he’s a disciplinarian?
Stubborn is not discipline. It’s just stubborn.
sjh
by Class of 66 on Jan 20, 2012 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
If he was a disciplinarian
you’d never have seen Drago or Jerime play after their infractions. What he is is a hard ass at practice. Not much outside of that.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Jerime
I was surprised that Jerime “got off” so easily. Unlike Drago, Jerime actually has a conviction.
I’m a strong “innocent ’til proven guilty guy”. Jeremy has been found guilty.
I have mixed feelings about this — I believe in second chances. But, I wondered if he shouldn’t sit out a season before being given that second chance.
And, I wondered what would have happened had we had some better guards on the roster.
Certainly, he was not “disciplined”.
OTOH — CBH knows him best and maybe he saw enough remorse and contrition to let him stay on the team and play.
sjh
Jerime to me is the perfect symbol
It is with him more than anyone else CBH blew it. He is the worst PG in UCLA history. On the other hand CBH has got the maximum out of this self-entitled low athletic ability petty criminal. But that’s just it. Holiday should have been playing backup PG Jerime’s freshman year. His sophomore year Jerime lost the job despite not having a backup as he and Bobo spent their time partying. His junior year CBH chose Jerime over Carlino costing UCLA it’s best shooter since Michael Roll and a better PG. Now an athletic but raw 2 guard is kept waiting for a non-athletic but experienced PG.
Anderson will be CBH’s downfall. It was not Jone’s shots that cost us the OSU game. It was his reliance on Anderson who made the crucial turnover against OSU and who missed the wide open three against Stanford. And it is not Anderdon’s fault. It is CBH’s who made Anderson the best he could be which is not a high major d-1 player.
Sort of amazing what a lack of accountability will do
Not to mention not having a HS PG prospect in three straight classes. Gross recruiting negligence.
Bbbbuutt.........
We have Larry Drew (sarc)
Another inditement on Howland is bringing in North Carolina’s hand-me-downs and bringing in JUCO transfers. Having a stud PG was a staple to Howland’s FF teams.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 20, 2012 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
No, CBH has been going after PG’s. Matt Carlino was here and left. Dominic Artis committed, then decommitted. Having your kids turn their backs on your program is a far worse indictment.
I have no problems with jucos. With so many players leaving after their FR and SO years, jucos are playing a much bigger role in D1 schools. A very high percentage of the top 10 jucos end up at major programs and a surprising number end up playing in the pros. De’End Parker was the #4 rated JUCO in the country last year. He would have made an impact had he stayed in the program.
My biggest problem with Howland – he wastes so damn many scholarships.
Carlino and Artis
Carlino was a late sign after Howland missed on McCallum (and presumably, Burton had already gone to Nevada). However, in addition to rumored Nelson hazing, Carlino was expected to play the 2, allowing Zeek the lion’s share of PG minutes. That is what led to Carlino’s exit.
As for Artis, such is life. But accepting Artis’ verbal (whose aforementioned Findlay Prep/Oakland Soldiers resume was a red flag) meant saying no to Rose and Smith.
by indigo27 on Jan 20, 2012 8:18 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
The Press Release the Day Carlino was signed
said he was going to play PG. The problem was not Jones, but Anderson. Carlino never got a shot because CBH chose Anderson as the backup 1 and 2.
I definitely remember that
I was just saying that Anderson (as you pointed out) and Lamb were the primary backup guards. I also had heard that Carlino didn’t spend a minute at the 1 in practice. Of course, that’s just what I heard. Regardless, he clearly was going to be at the end of the bench no matter what position he played.
Well, as an albeit very weak defense, he did
That is, until Team Nike swooped in and took him. While I’m not upset at losing Artis specifically (given his Oakland Soldiers affiliation), it was another Howland recruiting mistake. Taking Artis’ verbal meant saying no to LJ Rose and D’Vauntes Rivera-Smith, two PGs who aren’t Oakland Soldiers and who apparently aren’t the fancy of Team Nike.
I completely agree
I’m not on the ‘fire Ben’ train either; aside from questionable armchair coaching I haven’t heard anything to warrant it. The ‘empirical’ analysis of the program I have read here also doesn’t stand up to serious scrutiny.
Howland is the best coach this school has had since Wooden. Be patient.
Cite your reasons why it doesn't stand up
DC made his case, clearly showing the connections between his observations and what he wrote. You flippantly dismiss it without presenting a counter point. Do that, or get out.
Really?
Harrick was on a hotter seat than Howland for the teams he assembled prior to the Bruin’s last national championship in my class of 95’. That was a team with fantastic senior leadership (O’Bannon, Edney) – guys who had played together for four years, motivated by their first-round tourney loss to Tulsa the year before (imagine how that would go over today) where they couldn’t recover from a 63-38 half-time deficit!!
That was a time when players stayed in the NCAA for four years. The quality of the game was much higher because there wasn’t a constant rotating door of players using the college game as a short springboard to the NBA.
The NBA as a development league has adversely effected the college game. As I have articulated before, Howland has been a victim of that trend more than most because of great recruiting. He has tried to solve this riddle (constantly losing his best young players) with players like the Wear twins (older), junior transfers (Zeke), etc. Hasn’t worked too well and this is a weak team as a result. Very sad that Reeves couldn’t get with the program; he was a skilled player.
As I see it the Wear twins – while fundamentally sound and somewhat good scorers – lack the athleticism to play real defense.
I see the usual great development typical of Howland-coached guards in their second year in both Zeke and Tyler Lamb.
I see Smith finally seeing the light and getting himself in shape, which he should of been when the year started. He’s just starting to ‘get it’ too. And what does he need to get? That to win in basketball and in life you have to put 100% of your heart and soul into it.
Howland gets that. He coaches it every day. When his players buy into it they become winners.
Tyus Edney gets that. He’s an assistant coach on this team. Put him out there at point guard!!!
Playing in the sports arena doesn’t help much.
I do agree that Howland needs to put a winning run together. I am confident he will. He has a longer leash in my mind because of his enormous prior success. He has a longer leash because the things he coaches (defense, effort, fundamentals, discipline, preparation, commitment, etc.) very much reflect the principles Wooden also advocated.
So for this reason I advocate patience.
Nope
When Harrick left, UCLA was 2 years removed from a NC, back to back Pac-10 champions. The team was in such strong shape it ended up winning another conference title and an elite 8 run (would have gone to Final-4 if not for injury to McCoy) under an incompetent coach like Steve Lavin.
While NBA has had an adverse impact it hasn’t had the kind of negative impact on other elite programs like it has on UCLA which is on the verge of missing the tourney for the 2nd time in 3 seasons. I don’t know what world you live in but in our world of UCLA basketball that is simply inexcusable.
You will not get to make excuses and preach patience if the Bruins miss the tournament this year. If anyone wants to to make excuses for piece of garbage season resulting in a trashy NIT bid, they will have to do it in some other forum where there is no sense of respect for the tradition of UCLA basketball.
Done
In other words, you want a bunch of sycophants to agree with everything you say. Any alternate point of view, even well-articulated, you want to shut down or chase away.
A forum, as I understand it, is a place where people interested in a subject express their views in mutual respect.
I graduated summa cum laude from UCLA. I love the school and basketball program as much as anyone. If you want me to sit down and shut up, you got it!!!
There is always room for expressing views with mutual respect
As long as you express those views based on reality. And the reality as we have shown for last few years is that this program is failing. Your only contribution here so far has been coming here offering differing opinions that is not really backed by any kind of sound analysis but more on your opinion on Howland’s quality is a coach. Moreover, you have been taken to task here for attacking others for criticizing Howland.
The bottom line is for this program missing the tourney 2 out of 3 years will be inexcusable. If that happened to a coach in a program like Duke, Kentucky, UNC and Kansas with no national championship, he would be fired on the spot.
So if you want to offer disagreements that’s fine. But if you want show of your ‘summa cum laude’ simply by attacking others, you will be gone. If you have gotten one warning from another front page editor. Consider this your last and only one.
I'm sorry
Be patient with what? What is it exactly that needs to be fixed, and what makes you think Howland can fix it, and how would he fix it? Was he handed a roster that wasn’t his? Was he suddenly handed a program in despair? This is all his doing.
Your current logic is: Howland went to 3 Final Fours, his last one being four years ago. Then something happened, things got screwed up. Now, give Howland a chance to fix it. So please explain, what got screwed up, whose fault is it, and how do you know it won’t happen again?
You advocate patience, but if you would, please tell me what I am supposed to be patient about. Please go through the roster for the next couple of years and tell me what you think will happen. It is a true question and not a sarcastic one.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
He doesn't need to answer your stupid questions
He graduated summa cum laude, so that means he can throw out accusations and unfounded opinions and never have to back them up. Nor does he have to give you a reason for why things will get better. When you graduate summa cum laude, you just know what the future holds even when there is no obvious path to get there. It’s just going to magically happen.
Well, he wanted a respectful conversation
So I want to give him the chance. Hopefully he won’t take his ball and go play somewhere else.
If he answers the questions, we can have a conversation. If he is just here to pontificate, well, summa cum bye bye.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
very classy and respectful
Yes I did graduate summa cum laude thank you very much. It was a lot of work and I enjoyed every minute of it. UCLA is a great school that I owe a lot to…
The point I am repeatedly making is that Howland is an excellent coach with a so-so roster he is doing his best to work with.
I argue the reason his roster is less stellar than in years past is primarily due to NBA defections, most recently Malcom Lee and Honeycutt. While all coaches must deal with this issue, the Pac-10 and UCLA have been particularly impacted, resulting in a fairly weak league and team.
I very much disagree with the notion that Howland has ‘personnel mismanagement’. His style is demanding and not all the kids that play for him are up to the task. It seems to me his moves (like dismissing Nelson) reinforce his loyalty to principle over raw talent. At any winning program, players must know that talent alone will not cut it. They must invest in the program.
Further, NBA departures don’t count as ‘personnel mismanagement’, not when there are millions of dollars tied up in the decision.
I preach patience because in addition to being an excellent coach Howland is also an excellent recruiter. He brings in fantastic recruits, so good most aren’t here long.
Howland also excels in player development. Typically Howland players see massive growth from a player’s freshman to sophomore year; Russell Westbrook is a great example and there are many more.
Next year Normal Powell will make huge strides; this year Tyler Lamb is much better, as is Zeke Jones.
Recent UCLA players are so prepared for the NBA, they have made a great and early impact. This has been covered quite thoroughly, most recently in the L.A. Times – a testament to Howland’s coaching ability.
Howland’s coaching approach is a winning formula for drawing top recruits to this school. Again a reason for patience, because I see the school’s reputation as ‘best for NBA readiness’ boding very well for the ambiguous future I apparently have a blind and magical faith in.
What you call ‘excuses’ I would argue are well-reasoned factors and a long-term view backed up by strong past results. It is of course hugely disappointing for the team to perform so poorly. But it would be a much greater mistake, I argue, to advocate hiring a new coach.
This brings up another point. Having observed UCLA basketball for many years, one can easily identify a pattern to which all Bruin coaches have been subjected. They come in with great fanfare and promise; within a few seasons they are being turned slowly over the grill. It is very easy to say ‘fire the coach!’, hoping in vain the new coach will solve all the school’s problems. I don’t think that formula has served UCLA particularly well, quite frankly. Their best coach, Wooden, was here for a long time before the culture of winning finally took hold.
You are right, by the way, that Harrick was a very good coach. He weathered some tough seasons and a lot of heat before they won it all. Very similar pattern to calling for his head, etc.
Now, is all of this really so infuriating? Its just a different point of view than the one you gents are so relentlessly hammering home. All I’m saying is be careful what you wish for. Howland is a great coach; stick with him and you will see, my opaque crystal ball notwithstanding.
Now carry on with your invidious vituperations.
The point is that no one gives a damn about your summa cum derp
The point you are repeatedly making is still repeatedly wrong. If he has a so-so roster it is because he recruited so-so players. If his style is demanding and he recruited kids that aren’t up to the task, it is on him. That’s what managing a program means. The NBA departures ship is a weak excuse. Every program deals with them. Ours deals with it particularly poorly.
Tyler Lamb is not significantly better than last year. He plays a lot more minutes, but his defense has clearly regressed and his offense is what you get when he’s not getting pulled for taking poor jumpers. Zeek is the same player he was last year. You picked two incredibly poor examples to demonstrate player development.
You’ve basically proved nothing here. Well, actually you’ve proven that your standards for this program are incredibly low. The rest of what you said has no basis in the current reality surrounding this program. It’s as if you haven’t seen any of the games this year.
You want "respect"?
Don’t respond to me. Address tasser10’s post. That would prove that you’re doing more than blowing sunshine up everyone’s ass with shoddy guesswork and that you actually have a logical vision of how Howland will right the ship. But if you’re going to write a wall of text that says virtually nothing about the concerns raised about the current state of the program, don’t bother, we don’t care.
Some numbers for you.
If i can be convinced with other facts about Howland’s coaching that prove his best seasons are irrevocably behind us, not only i would be convinced we need a change but i think many thousands of alumni would. The evidence to change the minds of those of us, alumni or not, who have faith in Howland, hasn’t been presented.
Ben Howland through his three Final Four years: 126-37 77.3%
Ben Howland in only his three Final Four years: 97-17 85.1%
Ben Howland since his three Final Four years: 73-46 61.3%
Winning percentage for all other UCLA coaches since Wooden:
Gary Cunningham 86.2%
Gene Bartow 85.2%
Jim Harrick 75.6% and one banner
Larry Farmer 72.6%
Larry Brown 71.1%
Steve Lavin 65.0%
Walt Hazzard 62.1%
Look at where Howland’s post-Final Four coaching would go on the list. I can’t guarantee that Howland’s “best seasons are irrevocably behind us,” but the evidence sure doesn’t look good.
Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.
KS
I think these datapoints need to be in a fanpost. Can you please share these so that they stand out … and feel free to add more relevant numbers if you want. We should amplify it. Thanks.
More than just the winning percentages (which shouldn't be ignored)
His recruiting mistakes are absolutely confounding and have left UCLA with a roster full of bench players who shouldn’t be playing 30+ a game.
Correct - recruiting mistakes is a whole different issue
There is also the matter of personnel management – which has resulted in one player after another bolting from the program.
I feel so much better than most of you
because I didn’t watch the game! Ha! Take that! Even our little winning streak didn’t stoke my interest. This team sucks big time, and this coach is now flailing around like a robot with a singular program that just won’t change the way it operates. And I have zero confidence in whoever our next coach would be. This program is teetering on the brink. May it fall on Chianti’s head and end his career here as well. The alumni better start getting pissed. This is our g’damn flagship program!
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Annoying to see so much talent on the floor and Smith killing us...
when they went on a 7-0 run they traveled 20 times up and down the court… Smith maybe about twice… he ended it with a foul that wasn’t a flagrant but you can tell her was dead… Our team is in disarray because of Smith (Nelson too but he’s not here) and yes Ben Howland doesn’t help… but if Smith comes out like a beast in the first game… we don’t lose all those early games and we don’t lose some of these close games… again… because of him we might see a new coach next year and Shabazz gone…
Only if Shabazz commits might we not see a new coach and winning would help!
lamb
i don’t want to call out one player for this loss but tyler lamb was awful last night and should not have been on the court. he had 3 official turnovers but in my estimation, he contributed to about 8. he couldn’t make simple passes and was lost on the court on offense. would have loved to see powell take more of lamb’s minutes but i guess that would be too logical for howland.
Howland's winning %
In CBH’s defense, he inherited a team that was 10-19, unique in the last 60 years of our program. Take out the 11-17 record from his 1st year in 03-04 and his pct goes up to 73%.
John Wooden was at 73% after his first 9 years, which he followed up with a four-year stretch of playing .600 ball (64-39).
I’m growing impatient like everyone else, but I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt through the end of next year. Just saying the following: one perfect storm (like our 08 recruiting class + the lack of West Coast talent + the NBA early departures) can make the best of coaches look mediocre. If we keep KL for one more year and UNC loses Hansbrough, then Ben and Roy could easily have the same record.
We have had 2 disastrous recruiting classes
Not just one and in the following classes Howland did nothing to address our pg issues. So the “perfect storm” excuse doesn’t work.
by Nestor on Jan 20, 2012 2:01 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It's not just a perfect storm
Here’s a list of issues and mistakes that are not the “perfect storm” and instead all stem from CBH:
- kept playing DC against Rose instead of Westbrook. Result: a loss, DC staying for his senior year because his stock dropped
- kept playing Jrudas Holiday at the 2: this is a direct result of the above
- recruited known head case Drew Gordon
- kept playing the Serbian bricklayer instead of developing others (still no explanation for this) while not disciplining him
- did not develop Mike Moser, so he transferred
- did not develop Chase Stanback, made him transfer so he could recruit Bobo Morgan
- Bobo Morgan, gigantic bust
- recruited known head case Reeves Nelson, did not discipline him, let him ruin team chemistry
- is wasting Stover and Lane on the bench
- not sure what to make of Carlino, but why did he leave?
- has not recruited a quality PG in 3 years
- refuses to play zone when current team couldn’t play man-to-man against a good high school team
I am forgetting others, but this has been going on for 3 years. That’s one hell of a fucking storm.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
This is a great post!! I would add two that continue to bother me at present:
- His baffling use of the time-out. Calling them after we score, and then running out of them at the end of close games.
- Allowing Josh Smith to be fat and out of shape two years running.
Or, signing off on a division I program schorlarship offer to someone
even a middle school gym student can outperform physically. I don’t believe Smith can do more than multiple times of situps, multiple times of pullups on a horizontal bar, basically the elementary school physical education requirements instituted by the California Department of Education.
I started vomiting ( just kidding ! ) half way down your list of Howland's mistakes
Each one of these items constituted unspeakable frustrations and pains for those of us that experienced it right before our eyes.
That season of the Serbian mad bomber alone could have sent people straight to the psychiatric ward for intensive therapy. Yet, strolling the sideline, perfectly tranquil at the disasters unfolding before him, Howland seemed ironically at peace alone. Poor Michael Roll took it to heart, tried anything he knew, in vain and in utter pain when he left the game for good.
This is the one Howland has let down, in my opinion.
The first time I attended the game that season, the sight of an obese, immobile Morgan flailing his arms pretending to guard someone, or maybe anybody at all underneath the basket appalled me instantly. Then all my hairs stood up, and I wondered to myself. Is this human specimen actually a prototype for Sumo wrestling school somewhere in Tokyo, or a cruel joke actually meant to entertain us ?
I can go on but suffice to say they all stack up, one after another, to confirm what we are all starting to think. Is our coach beginning to lose it ?
Absolutely, this needs to be rectified somehow. Next season is the time to draw the line.
Add to it that players would rather leave for the uncertainties of the NBA (Honeycutt, Lee) than play for Ben Howland. Also, is it me or is someone in the LA Times trying to cool of Ben Howland’s seat with that article that was printed on today’s sports section? Can it be that they are trying to market his coaching skills for a job elsewhere? Seems strange how all of the sudden this article was published front page of the LA Times sports section? Just a thought…
"Winners Then, Winners Now... Bruin in Madrid"
by uclaprofe on Jan 20, 2012 11:11 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
Time is Not on your side CBH.
Stubberness may have gotten you this far, but,
Time is Not on your side coach.
Tick-Tock-Tick-Tock………
Go Bruins!
What about the HUGE FT disadvantage????
33 for OSU to only 12 for UCLA? The Refs certainly didn’t do us any favors.
I'll actually defend the SPTRs a tiny bit.
To get free throws, or to have a chance for competent refs to allow you free throws, you have to get fouled. This is hard to accomplish when we’re going through our typical dozens of long jumpers. I didn’t count, but I’d wager OSU drove the ball into the paint maybe twice as often as we did.
Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.
It's pretty clear now
IF CBH doesn’t have this team make the NCAA tournament, he has to be let go. 2 misses in 3 years is inexcusable. But this should also be an indictment of Chianti Dan. For him to be in a position to pick 3 football coaches and possibly 2 basketball coaches in such a short time is more than enough reason for him to be let go by administrators. Not to mention all of his other fiascoes.
The honorable Mr. Dan Guerrero
obviously thinks he could replicate his UC Irvine experience at UCLA with similar expectations. In his own mind, he has done just that.
I recall that one particularly interesting posting when one of us actually talked at length about the UCLA athletic woes with the administration’s second in command. Name calling, personal attacks out of frustrations etc, would not be advisable if we expect to be taken seriously.
Fine. See how I wrote our AD’s name.
But then it makes things even more insanely urgent that they be aware & willing to take actions when it takes such deference & courtesy before they would even listen. Regardless of their title, they are still salaried university employees, funded by our tax dollars. Thus far, they only take into concern their own interest, preference.
When Mr. Guerrero awakes every morning, I believe he only has in mind his own ambitions, not how to run UCLA athletics and serve its fanbase interest the best way he knows. Very soon we will know if his football hire pans out and his continued support of our basketball coach, in the fact of his program’s perpetual decline, is merited and justified.
UCLA is not the Westwood campus of UC Irvine. You are mistaken, sir.
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