Howland Has Not Lived Up to the UCLA Standard
by WoodenMania on Jan 23, 2012 9:30 AM PST
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I am a very optimistic man and even after the season two years ago I believed that Howland could turn things around. But I have lost all faith in him and believe that even though things can get better, they cant get to the point where they need to be to live up to the standards that UCLA basketball deserves.
The questions need to be: Can Howland win a national championship? and Does he deserve to be fired? The first question to me is harder than the second to answer.
Can Howland win a Championship? I don't think so. I don't see UCLA having as good of a team as they did in 08. Our starting five had four NBA players on it and only one of them was a one and done. The starting lineup was three juniors in JS, DC, and LRMBM, one sophmore in RW and one freshman in KL. Howland is not going to get a chance like that again considering one and dones, transfers (which will continue cause Howland has lost respect of his players I think) and because a guy like Keating is gone who recruited players that would buy into Howlands system. The only way a championship is happening in my opinion is if Shabazz is a Melo or a Durant and Howland doesn't hold him back
Does Howland deserve to be fired? KSBruin did a fantastic job of showing us how Howland stacks up to past coaches. I wanted to do something similar in showing how consistent it is and should always be in making the Big Dance post John Wooden:
Gene Bartow- Two years, two tournament appearances
Gary Cunningham- Two years, two tournament appearances
Larry Brown- Two years, two tournament appearances
Larry Farmer- Three years, one tournament appearance
Walt Hazzard- Four years, one tournament appearance
Jim Harrick- Eight years, eight tournament appearances
Steve Lavin- Seven years, six tournament appearances
Ben Howland- Through eight years, six tournament appearances
That is 28 appearances compared to 8 no shows. And I know Howland is not responsible for the year after Lavin but if he does not make the tournament this year he has clearly fallen below the expectations that UCLA NEEDS to have as an elite program. UCLA still is an elite program even with its play of late, recruits are attracted and tradition will always be a huge part of this university because of the greatest coach of all time. We must always be talked about the way Duke UNC and Kentucky are in the conversation. And Howland has not been in that conversation for now going on four years.
I am starting to ramble so I will finish it up by noting that out of all of these coaches only two have had losing seasons: Lavin and Howland.
As always and forever, no matter who is coaching, Go Bruins.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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And who is on your wish list...
…to replace Howland? Do you trust that idiot guerrero to make a good decision?
My opinion is this: Howland needs to go back to recruiting the right kind of players. Can he do it? I don’t know. If he does that I am back on board. I say no to Shabazz, no to Tony Parker. Give me Dominic Artis. Gah.
by hicalliber on Jan 21, 2012 2:22 PM PST via mobile reply actions
No to Shabazz?
That’s a joke, right?
by LavinRuinedCollege on Jan 21, 2012 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
Shabazz is everything we want and need
Great talent at both ends, hard worker, great attitude. We need him.
greg in denver, U.C.L.A. guy for life - BruinsNation.com
Honestly
Shabazz is a great kid but I am not losing sleep over him. If losing Shabazz means we can get a good AD who understands how to lead major revenue programs, I will make that trade any day. UCLA needs a competent AD more urgently than someone like Shabazz. If the bottoming out of this joke of a hoops program means a new AD takes over who will make the determination for a new coach, I’d take that any day instead of caring for Shabazz. I am done caring for short term fixes in this broken hoops program.
Shabazz
Doesn’t give a shit about UCLA.
by hicalliber on Jan 21, 2012 6:23 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Obviously I'm speculating
But he’s most certainly a one and done…just looking for the best path to the NBA. I don’t want those guys anymore.
by hicalliber on Jan 21, 2012 6:26 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I'll take Kevin Love all over again.
and I’d take Shabazz. Unfortunately, that’s the nature of the beast in college basketball now. Yeah, Shabazz would probably bolt as soon as he gets the chance, but so did RW…so did Afflalo…so did Farmer, etc. They left when their stock was high and I don’t blame them at all. Sure, they played more than one year but you think if their last year at UCLA happened to be their first year at UCLA, they wouldn’t have left? I’m pretty sure having an NBA contract was a lot more important to them than seeing another banner in Pauley. But I don’t think we’d characterize any of them as not giving a shit about UCLA.
Anyways, it’s all a moot point. Shabazz ain’t coming.
by LavinRuinedCollege on Jan 22, 2012 5:32 AM PST up reply actions
My wish list
Brad Stevens – HC Butler
Shaka Smart – HC VCU
Dave Rose – HC BYU
Randy Bennett – HC St Mary’s
by Kerckhoff405 on Jan 24, 2012 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
Howland must go....
He has lost all good will earned in the FF years.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 21, 2012 3:22 PM PST via mobile reply actions
CBH
Howland has lost whatever touch he had regarding the management of his players and the ability to recruit the right players as evidenced by many players either leaving the program or being forced out, going to other institutions and becoming successful, team players. As far as a potential recruit such as Shabazz, he will only play for one year and then be gone. What good is that to a program. I’d rather have a less talented kid who could be developed into a sound, good player, stick around for at least two, maybe three years and be a true benefit to the program. This year, again, is lost. Unfortunately our AD doesn’t have a clue as to what to do. Get rid of him too!!
Are you kidding me?!?!?
How about his 3 straight Final Fours?
Cmon. Cut him some slack.
Big deal he had a bad year.
You don’t axe someone for 1-2 bad years, especially based on his record before that!
WAY TOOO SOON TO MAKE SUCH A JUDGMENT CALL.
Okay who had 12:20 in the pool?
Blindo, mediocrity-loving, excuse-making Howler at 12:20? Step on up and claim your prize.
It is a big deal oshi to have a bad year
It is an even bigger deal that he is having his second bad year now. This is exactly what i was trying to portray through this fan post, the standards at UCLA for a rebuilding year should be the season they had last year or the season they had with Jrue Holiday. It is completely inexcusable to not make the tournament at UCLA.
Those three final fours gave him enough to get through a losing season, but now a competent AD has to bring in someone who can restore UCLA to its rightful spot at the top because it will not happen under Howland.
Wrong
“Big deal he had a bad year.” He hasn’t had a good year since the 2008 campaign. You forget that UCLA only hangs NC banners. If you want to settle for medicority fine by me, but don’t make us sound incredulous for wanting better.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 23, 2012 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
Agree
These gents have lost the plot. When the seas get a bit rough, who’s first to jump ship? You boys think we are defending ‘mediocrity’ – you’re so wrong. We’re defending a great coach who is the envy of any D-1 program in the country. Anyone with sense and a bit of basketball knowledge knows this.
The ‘data’ you use to support your assertions is ludicrously biased and merely fodder for furthering entirely subjective opinions – opinions that for the sake of this program and its future excellence I hope no one is seriously listening to.
What are you going to say when the wins start coming again? Um, we were wrong, sorry?? When the going gets tough…
Let’s look at a 4 year span for another former UCLA coach… No tourney appearances. .621 overall winning percentage. 14-12 one season. 16-10 another. That guy should have been fired!!! He clearly wasn’t up to the standards of UCLA!!!
John Wooden ’57-61.
This is absurd
You are comparing Wooden’s early years to Howland’s last 4 years. This is precisely the kind of joke rationale Lavin supporters used to advance when his house of cards were falling apart. This is as out of context comparison as it gets.
...
Yes, I am making an absurdly out of context comparison. That’s kind of the point.
Also
If you attack any of the regular members here as a fair weather fan one more time, you will be gone. You won’t get another warning.
nice double-standard
If any of my very infrequent posts had a hint of the vitriol coming from the ‘regular members’ responses, I would have been banned long ago. If you can dish out a pound, surely you can take an ounce in return. You just don’t like my opinion, that’s it…
Your opinion
is worth a dingleberry when you offer zero evidence to support it.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
...
If I could ban you for comparing my laudable opinions to dingleberries, I would. Though I will give you points for creativity. I have offered evidence ad nauseam…
You haven't offered squat
Your misinformed opinions and debunked cherry picked “stats” do not consitute evidence. If you’re going to circlejerk to your own posts and continue to deny reality, you will, in fact, be banned, because this is borderline flamebait.
What evidence?
Comparing to Wooden’s program from FIFTY years ago?
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Ah, jeffey. The Mike Garrett of the Bruin fandom.
We’re defending a great coach who is the envy of any D-1 program in the country.
NBC:
Biggest Disappointment: UCLA
4)Which teams are the biggest disappointments?
There are plenty of them, starting with UCLA, which was the preseason favorite to win the Pac-12. That was before losing to Loyola Marymount and virtually every decent opponent the Bruins faced.
But perhaps the league’s biggest disappointment has been UCLA. The Bruins stumbled to a 2-5 start against the backdrop of all-conference forward Reeves Nelson’s disruptive behavior on and off the court.
ESPN:
And then there are the Bruins. UCLA was ranked in the preseason and the pick to win the league, but season-opening back-to-back losses to Loyola Marymount and Middle Tennessee State — amid discord and the eventual dismissal of the team’s best player, forward Reeves Nelson — kicked off a 7-5 start that could only be described as a mess.
Hey Jeff, I bet you read between the lines here and see a lot of jealousy right? They all wish they were Bruins!
...
Of course this season is a disappointment.
Yes, so what exactly is so envious about our position?
You’re saying that any D-1 program in the country would love to be sub-.500 in a crappy conference? Guess we know why you love Howland so much, cause you’re getting exactly what you wished for!
...
You take the myopic view. I take the long view, culminated from years of wisdom.
I'm embarrassed for my Alma Mater if that's actually true
Maybe we had Basket Weaving as a major back in the day.
Nothing suprises me any more
When people get so emotionally invested in defending a regime they lose all sense of fact based perspective.
by Nestor on Jan 23, 2012 3:43 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Pathetic
“When the wins start coming again!”: when is that?
“The envy of any D-1 program in the country”: UCLA is not just another D1 program
Oh, and a big, fat THAT’S STUPID for comparing to Wooden. It’s like you don’t know the history of college basketball, let alone our own school. Well how about this then: Wooden won 11 national championship, Howland zero. Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t know we got to nit pick whatever we needed to make our point.
The real question is: Why do you defend “a great coach” instead of defending A Great Program?
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
oh boy
Um, yes… Wooden’s 10 national championships (not 11, history major), came after those seasons. That’s precisely the point I’m making. I am defending a great program.
You are thoroughly off-base
Wooden had to build a program, he didn’t inherit one.
In his days, only one school from each conference went to the dance, so you can’t count his tourney appearances for comparison.
What are your standards? For crying out loud, this shit is happening even for basketball now? How much slack do you want to give Howland? How many more recruiting fuckups is he allowed? How many more untimely timeouts, disregarded players, mismanaged games? He has 3 years of Final Fours, and 6 years of mediocrity. Are you giving him employment for life? Can he do no wrong? These are actual questions. Please answer.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
How many losing seasons did Wooden have?
Go check. I’ll wait.
Roses are red, violets are blue...f*** $C.
Especially after his first Final-4
Even more Apple to Apple, how many losing season Harrick had after his first PAC-10 title and an Elite 8 appearance.
by Nestor on Jan 23, 2012 4:39 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Arguing with Absurd is Tough But how about this ONE Point
Coach Wooden NEVER had a losing season.
Howland has.
Coach can't really be compared to anyone else.
Coach was prepared to kick the best player in the country off the team for not getting a haircut. The current coach is not quite like that. Coach’s teams came up short 22 times in his last 12 years. I saw every one of those. Each one was heartbreaking. I still think that if we had had a little more time we could have won each of them. Never once did our guys play like the current crop. I suppose if I did a lot of research I could state with absolute certainty that Coach never ever had a team that got outscored by 20 points in the second half, but I am willing to state that with almost absolute certainty without researching it.
The troll can pick someone else to compare Coach Howland to, but not Coach.
How’s this. Over at just$c*, there was a coach named Bob Boyd. Going into the conference, just$c* was 12-0, and their president said something to the effect that Boyd should be named Coach of the Year even if just$c* never won another game. Well, guess what. Boyd’s trogans went 0-14 in the Pac-8, and Boyd was not named Coach of the Year. The troll would probably point at the 12-0 pre-season and preach patience. I can assure all that every Bruin was likewise preaching patience because we wanted Boyd to stay there forever. Just like the rest of the conference is preaching to us regarding Howland. Just as they did with our last two football coaches. And just like they are doing now with the “Keep Dan Strapping it On” campaign.
Why I bothered responding to this troll is a mystery. I guess I just wanted to tell the Bob Boyd story.
Recruits
Howland also recruits some of the best players in college basketball.
Had Love, Colisson, Afflalo, Westbrook, etc all stayed and played on the same team, I’m sure there would be #12 hanging in Pauley, at the very least. He cannot be blamed for them pursuing their careers in pro basketball (I would too).
Wrong
Howland should have known these recruits wouldn’t have lasted long at Westwood and recruited accordingly. This all falls on Howland. All major programs have players leave early. Duke, Kentucky, NC have dealt with while Howland has failed miserably.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 23, 2012 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
Sure, osh, that might have happened.
Or maybe if the one and dones had stayed at other schools, they might have beaten us. And also, don’t forget this: If I had wheels I would be a skateboard. (I heard an expert say that once when he was responding to a speculative question in a depo and thought it was pretty nifty.)
He'll Have a Coaching Job in Less than 24 Hours
If UCLA let go of Howland, he’d be hired at another Top Division I program in NO TIME. He has a great resume, doesn’t get paid as much as the other top coaches…he’s a steal.
And if another Pac-12 program were to sign him….well, that would not work out too well.
Keep him. Players just need to mature.
The man’s had to adjust his roster almost every year significantly, because of players leaving.
Wrong
Whose fault is it that the players are leaving early? Moser, Stanback, Carlino, Gordon, Nelson all left because of Howland’s mismanagement.
by Waitingfornumber12 on Jan 23, 2012 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
Players just need to mature
Anderson: Senior
Jones: Senior
Wears: redshirt sophomores (i.e. juniors)
Lane: Junior
Stover: redshirt sophomore (i.e. junior)
Let’s wait until they mature! On the bench!
Yes, he’ll have a job in less than 24 hours, because his record would be a dream at most middle-of-the-road programs. Trouble is, this is UCLA. He’s had a horrible 4-year stretch. That’s not 1 or 2 years.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
I hope he gets a new job a minute after he leaves UCLA
He’s a good man and he will undoubtedly make a good coach for some other school. He’s not the coach for UCLA any more, as his record has demonstrated. Nonetheless, I wish him well in his new job, which I wish he would start taking care of right now.
This is UCLA
I can’t stand the systemic stench of mediocrity that has infected not only our athletics but our school in general. Our team is in shambles and the AD keeps strapping it on, mind numbingly oblivious to anything.
Chancellor Block, I know you don’t care about athletics but you do also realize that in the US News and World Report rankings U$C is now ranked ahead of us. And their president has pledged to raise the endowment by 6 BILLION $$$$.
Why exactly is Block leading our university?
This problem is complex
On the one hand, Howland likely must go. Recruiting has missed greatly and Howland has to take responsibility for that. It seems like nobody really likes his style or wants to play for him. His stubbornness or control-freak personality is doing him in.
But on the other hand, he clearly has a formula for success. If you get recruited and come in and do it HIS way, he’s shown the results are Pac-10 championships, Final 4 berths, and players excelling in the NBA. But, apparently that’s too much to ask of many of today’s “athletes.” Honeycutt didn’t want to be troubled with having to play defense. Reeves didn’t want to be troubled with having to put the team first. JS doesn’t want to be troubled with not eating doughnuts. They all want to show up, jack up a bunch of shots, and then endorse their NBA checks.
I probably feel differently than everyone else, but I’ve lost all interest in this sport at this level. Howland, while quite possibly a huge jerk to play for, has isolated the plan for success. But nobody wants to come in and execute it any more. It’s easier to transfer, jump to the NBA, quit, eat, whatever.
Variance is also a known bitch too. A couple of years ago when we suffered through an awful season, we had this same conversation. One of the front pagers offered up Jamie Dixon as a top choice to replace Howland. 2 years later and Pittsburgh is a Big East embarrassment. I have no confidence that our next coach will be any better than our current coach.
One quibble
there are players who would come in and buy into the Howland way. He has just stopped recruiting them. It’s as if he listened to all the whiners who complained about his offense during the Final Four run and started going after run-n-gun prima donnas.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
Just out of curiosity...
do you feel Anderson and Adams fit into the “buy into the Howland way” mold?
I really don’t know, I don’t follow these guys as much as some do. How does one tell?
I find it interesting what Klem said about recruiting from the Gold interview…“You hope to at least bat 50 percent,” Klemm said. “If you bring in four, maybe you hope to hit on three. You’re never really going to hit on all of them. That’s across the board. I’ve never seen anybody hit on all of them.”
Maybe Howland has been hitting zero lately and this next class is a much higher percentage. Who the hell knows. But I see Howland as having dug himself a hole and now he’s trying to climb out.
Alright, back to the percentages, I wonder if this goes for basketball as well. Problem is with basketball there are fewer scholies and therefore less room for error.
Speaking of Klem, is there any way Howland can borrow Klem and Mazzone for recruiting for a month or two.
You don't get the luxury of batting .500 in basketball because
1. As you said, there are fewer scholarships. You must hit at a higher percentage. That’s reasonable because
2. Freshman can and do contribute heavily in basketball. Line propsects in football, not so much.
3. You can spend more time evaluating each recruit. There are fewer scholarships to give and fewer positions to scout.
So, do we not know about the A's, how will they do?...
Your point about football linemen is well taken, they just have to grow into the position. Strength & bulk comes later than than the speed required by ‘skill’ positions. I almost wonder if linemen, (both sides) are the new ‘skill’ position. Offense goes nowhere without them, defense lives and dies from what happens at the line of scrimage.
Anyway, still looking for “that” PG recruit. Can’t live without ’em.
I agree with BruinZen
CBH needs to be given a longer leash than say Steve Lavin. Yes, this season is a major disappointment but CBH has a proven track record of success — even if it was several years ago. ESPN ranks our incoming class at #9 right now (without Shabazz) and I don’t imagine a bunch of guys from this year’s team leaving early for the NBA so I’m optimistic about next year. I don’t endorse giving Howland a lifetime of employment, if next year is a disappointment, there’s the door. I would just hate to see us fans run CBH out of town right now and hire somebody without the successful history of a Ben Howland. – Go Bruins!
by DesCon Sports on Jan 24, 2012 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
Selective memory
CBH had a great run, 2006-2008. 3 Final Fours. He also had 2 losing seasons (one not his own), 1 loss in the first round, and 2 losses in the second round.. Add in this season of nothingness. That’s 5 seasons of sheer mediocrity (I’m not counting his first to be generous). So tell me, what is the track record of success?
The “one more chance” happened after he went 14-18 in 2009. This season was his “one more chance”, given that last year earned him no slack on the leash at all.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just the 800 lbs bruin in the room.
DG
I wouldn’t support letting CBH go until DG has been fired. It’s very important that DG is fired first, we shouldn’t gamble our BB program with DG..
by Big Bully on Jan 23, 2012 5:10 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Much as I want to start helping Coach Howland clean out his office, I fear Bully is right
We know what we have with Coach Howland, which is a slow drip to mediocrity. If Doughnut Dan picks the next coach, we are certain to go into a headlong dive into the already-burning dumpster.
What exactly is the mechanism by which Chancellor Block and AD Dan would be shown the door?
It doesn’t seem like alumni can do anything about it.
by huzaifatalwala on Jan 23, 2012 10:49 PM PST reply actions
How many Libyan or Egyptian students do we have?
And can they call enough of their buddies back home to have them form up in the Royce Hall quad and start heading for Murphy Hall? That seems to be the only way to get things done. I suppose if we could hypnotize the board of regents, but I understand there must actually be a functioning brain in order for hypnosis to work.
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