HP's Correction, But Not Retraction

by Cocoman25 on Apr 13, 2006 7:36 PM PDT

I'll give ManPundit credit for posting a correction to his recent post about Wetzel's now debunked Wooden hit-piece, and linking to Canadian's letter from bluestreet's great post in his blog.

But, I'll just point out that it wasn't exactly a retraction.

HP basically says, even if not in so many words, that though the details of Wetzel's story have been discredited, the substance of the story remains true. Specifically, HP says:

There is no doubt that Gilbert was the Bruin sugar daddy for many years (he also was known for helping out USC football players as well).
Is this "no doubt" true? Does HP have the facts to back this up? I admit, I'm no expert on the subject. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rumors of Gilbert providing favors to UCLA players were true. But, at the least, HP stating that Gilbert was a "sugar daddy" as an incontrovertible fact, without specifying what he means by that (I believe purposefully) ambiguous phrase, is troubling.

HP goes on to argue that the "gist" of Wetzel's story is accurate, relying solely upon the website of first year student at UCLA named Mitchell Austin:

Does that mean that the gist of what Wetzel was trying to write was entirely off base? Nope. Anyone who follows the L.A. sports scene and knows Gilbert's history shouldn't be surprised.

HP might as well say: I still think UCLA cheated. And then HP wraps up by repeating the same conclusion from his original post that UCLA's basketball program was "absolutely" "corrupt":

Is John Wooden the greatest coach ever? I think so. Was his program corrupt because of the influence of Sam Gilbert? Absolutely. Was UCLA doing things differently than all the other top programs? Probably not.

Change his conclusion? No. Just repeat it. And then suggestively sign off by invoking the sinister "shadows of the banners that hang in Pauley Pavilion."

Listen, HP can say what he wants. And I'm no sports historian. But if he's going to say something like this, he should say it with support. Not just some well-crafted innuendo, a discredited article from a hack Yahoo reporter and a first year college student.

As HP himself says:

the Gilbert affair is a story that, if it is done at all, needs to be done correctly and fairly. After all, a lot of reputations are at stake.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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See my response to your original post below*

by Heismanpundit on Apr 13, 2006 10:53 PM PDT 0 recs

Not only you are a liar but also a coward ...

Like we are supposed to be believe this nonsense?:

I have been around LA sports for a while and know many former coaches, players and media people who were around during the Gilbert era. So most of my information comes from these people--some are Bruins, some are Trojans and some are neither. All of them are credible and none of them take anything away from the greatness of UCLA or Wooden's coaching. They just tell me what everyone at the time who was involved in LA sports knew and accepted.

I did not retract my original point because, as I said, I believe that UCLA's program, like most other top programs of the time (a key point) had a certain level of corruption. Just because Wetzel does some false quotes to support this does not make that original point baseless.

Yeah right. We are suppose to believe you as a credible source of information when it comes to matters concerning Coach Wooden. The level or arrogance (and stupidity) coming from you on this topic is really mind boggling.

Come on. If you are so well connected and are so certain about what went on during the Coach's era, then why don't you come out and name names, instead of hiding behind the mantra of unnamed sources.

Based on your post - it sounds like you are nothing but a lying not to mention morally bankrupt (given how you have rationalized the nonsuspension of Malauga) coward.

A typical Trojan shill.

by Nestor on Apr 14, 2006 5:40 AM PDT up 0 recs

Myth or Fact? (cross posted from main thread)

I will spare us all the vituperation. I would just like to explore the basis of your accusations, and the reliability of your sources, for a moment. You claim:

I think Nestor is right to demand that you name your sources before making these kinds of accusations. You are directly challenging the credibility and honor of both a program and a man. So, who are these "former coaches, players and media people" and what, specifically, do they claim?

Also, how do you know that your source are so "credible."? I would caution you to use care before characterizing any long ago fact as "accepted" without rigorously analyzing the basis for your claims. Over time, rumors pass surprisingly quickly from unsubstantiated innuendo, to myth, to lore, to established fact, often just by virtue of repetition. Did your sources have first hand information? Were they present when gifts were given, or money changed hands? Or did they just hear a rumor from someone else they deemed credible? Or by then was it alreadly then just an "accepted" fact.

This isn't just semantics. It matters, particularly when these kinds of charges are made. I'm sure you and I could come up with countless examples where a salacious charge, though false, takes on a life of its own, often harming the reputation of an innocent.

So, its fair, don't you think, to ask for sources on this kind of thing? Particularly when those making the charges have their own (often undisclosed) motivations and interests, including, without limitation, jealousy, rivalry commercial gain, simple joy in gossip, or whatever.

And, a separate, though certainly not distinct, issue is what do you charge was Wooden's role in all this? As you might imagine, you have ruffled the hackles of many people here with what I think can fairly be interpreted as attacks on a good man. Separate and apart from Sam Gilbert's alleged shenanigans, do you think Wooden cheated? Have you asked him? You've often reminded us that you two are good friends, both here and here:

Wooden actually likes me and would be very upset if he knew I was being called an asshole.

...the next time I am a Wooden's house or at Jerry's Deli in Westwood with Howland?

I suspect Wooden would do more than just cuss at you through a rolled up program if you did. And he may be less upset at someone calling you names thereafter. But, I can't judge this. I don't have the relationship. You do, so would you kindly ask a few questions and clear this all up?

If, however, you aren't willing to share your share sources, and ask you friend Wooden about it, don't you think it would be more prudent, respectful, and honest to think twice before repeating these allegations?

by Cocoman25 on Apr 14, 2006 9:29 AM PDT up 0 recs

Keep drinking the kool aid

were you guys born in 1985 or something? Just because you guys don't know anyone doesn't mean no one else does.

one of my best friends is a Wooden confidante and close friend of the family. he has breakfast with coach once a week at least; another friend of mine was recruited by Wooden in the 1950s, another acquaintance was a former ballboy who now lives in Kentucky, another two or three more work in the Morgan Center and are very familiar with UCLA history, another friend of a friend you might know from a certain Rose Bowl ticket scandal a few years back with Wisconsin, another coached against him in the early 1960s, another played against him, another was a sport scout who ran in the same circles (and knows the story of Alcindor's recruitment) and on and on. They all are aware of what Gilbert was doing.

And no, I won't ask Wooden because I don't think it makes him any less of a great coach for what happened. He has gone on the record about this and I will accept it. When I am a guest in his home, I am not going to regale him.

Coach is a great person, but not perfect. Did you know that he was a high school baseball coach and once won 55 games in a row? Did you know that he once punched out a player that was coaching back in Indiana who had given him lip?

I am not going to betray confidences and name names (most of whom will be meaningless to you), but you guys are probably the last people in the world who think UCLA's program under Wooden was squeaky clean. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too? I hope you get a lot of eggs on Sunday.

by Heismanpundit on Apr 14, 2006 3:18 PM PDT 0 recs

Nice

I keep it civil, ask you a few simple questions, and what do I get? Snarky bullshit about "kool aid," a demeaning and inaccurate barb about when I was born, a lame, self-ingratiating slap about how many people you know, and a borderline retarded Easter bunny comment.

And, for the record, I didn't say "Wooden was squeaky clean"; I just asked you some questions and said I wouldn't be surprised if some of what I had heard about Sam Gilbert was true.

Just great. And you wonder why people call you an asshole.

by Cocoman25 on Apr 14, 2006 3:41 PM PDT up 0 recs

Also ...

I love the fact how he automatically assumes he is the only one that knows anyone in the Southern California college sports scene. lol (and I am actually lol!)

Not just asshole ... another operative work in this instance is ... "tool." A Trojan tool.

by Nestor on Apr 15, 2006 8:13 AM PDT up 0 recs

Well put Coco

HP you contradict yourself stating that you don't put people down and just argue the facts - come on now just read your last reply (see above). You really are losing what little credibility that you had left.

by shaq on Apr 14, 2006 7:47 PM PDT 0 recs

It's fine

All it proves is that the ManPundit will whore out his principles to push his trojan agenda, and he certainly looks like an asshole in the process.

by scittles on Apr 14, 2006 8:53 PM PDT up 0 recs

News: ManPundit Has a Midget Fetish

I just read in a Yahoo sports article that Heismanpundit is not only a tool, he also has a closet midget fetish. After some research, it seems that this story - detailing HP's twisted love of men of lesser stature - has been reported off-and-on for years. I'm surprised, though, given the allegations, that this story has gotten more play. So, I feel obligated to tell everyone about it. You should tell a friend.

The story begins with a much younger Warwick Davis, who you may remember from his roles in Willow and the Harry Potter movies. It seems that HP and Davis may have lived for a time in the near the same suburban neighborhood. Apparently, according to sources, HP spent many hours following, photographing, at attempting to bugger, Davis. After an initial exposé in the late 1970's, the story vanished, after Davis moved on to Hollywood and could no longer be reached for comment.

I don't report this information lightly. I have been around LA for a while and know many former friends, acquaintances, and media people who were around during the HP/Davis era. So most of my information comes from these people--some are Bruins, some are Trojans and some are neither. All of them are credible and none of them take anything away from the greatness of Davis' movies, or the HP's blogging about all things Heisman. They just tell me what everyone at the time who was involved in that LA neighborhood knew and accepted.

When I first brought this news to some people's attention, you wouldn't believe the reaction! Could you believe they wanted me to identify my sources? I told them, HP loves dwarfish men, as everyone knows. But they wouldn't take my word for it. What, were those guys born in 1985 or something? Just because those guys don't know anyone doesn't mean no one else does.

My sources are rock solid. One of my best friends thinks of himself as a Davis confidante and close friend of the family. He has breakfast at around the same time as the actor once a week at least; another friend of mine read HP's blog for a while in late 2005, another acquaintance was a former neighbor who now lives in Kentucky, another two or three more work in the movie business and are very familiar with USC and Davis history, another friend of a friend you might know from a certain Hollywood scandal a few years back with Paul Ruebens, another played sports at the same time as HP him in the early 1980s, another played against him, another was a sport scout who ran in the similar, but different, circles (and thinks he knows of the story of HP's puberty) and on and on. They all are aware of what HP was doing.

And no, I won't ask Davis because I don't think it makes him any less of an actor for what happened. He has yet to go on the record about this and I will accept it. When I am a guest in his home, I am not going to regale him.

I am not going to betray confidences and name names (most of whom will be meaningless to you), but you guys are probably the last people in the world who think HP's background is free from these types of sexual proclivities. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too? I hope you got a lot of eggs on Sunday.

by Insider on Apr 17, 2006 1:22 PM PDT 0 recs