The Sour Grapes Issue of the Day

by Class of 66 on Dec 30, 2007 8:49 AM PST Comment 25 comments

Bumped. GO BRUINS. -N

The "The NCAA Will Nit Pick Us to Death" Fallacy.

0r clarity and not backed up by a body of published, CONSISTENT, enforcement decisions.

I have been joined by Fox and some of he other trial lawyers on this board in stating that only the NCAA could get away with what it did with RN -- that a public agency living within our standards of both due process (clear unambiguous statements of the conduct code so that one is not prosecuted for violations defined by whim or fiat) or equal protection (even rather than selective enforcement) could not get away with what the NCAA does.

OH, BUT WAIT -- THE NCAA DIDN'T GET AWAY WITH IT. And, that's the key to our future.

Sour grapes people, you have it wrong.

The NCAA should be more afraid of RN than we should be afraid of the NCAA.

After all, RN had the courage and smarts to fight back -- and win. In fact, he fought back so well that the UW and the NCAA decided not to go to trial and to fork over $4.5 million to RN.

I know a lot of wrongful death cases that have settled for a lot less than that.

And, the NCAA "blessed" the hire. From what I understand, DG or the search firm went to the NCAA and talked with it about the hire -- which was approved. My take: had they not done so, they'd be in court again. A good move by DG and the firm to get the blessing.

The public position: It's all in the past.

But, the sour grapes guys want us to believe that there still is a private vendetta.

Do you really think the NCAA wants to get involved with someone with the courage to fight back?

I don't think so.

The NCAA is a cowardly lot. Why do you think they have done NOTHING about sc? They are afraid to take on a school that they know will fight back.

They have real, documented charges against sc and they won't prosecute them. Serious violations that go to the heart of college athletics, and they won't take on the fight.

Do you really believe that they will try to trump up some charges against RN and then pursue them? Especially when we can point across town and say WTF?

I don't think so. And, I'll bet most of the trial lawyers here on BN will agree with me. One very public bloody nose is probably enough for them. They won't swing at someone who will swing back.

So Dohn, and all of those who tried to steal our joy, yesterday, by predicting NCAA doom -- it is not going to happen.

This is a chastened but strong RN we have hired.

He will do things right.

And, if the NCAA does the wrong thing, he will stand up for what is right.

Those issues are behind us.

Next, please.

sjh

PS. I also have every confidence in UCLA. If we see any coach, not just RN, doing the wrong thing, we will make it right. Unlike sc, we don't need the NCAA to do it for us.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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As a criminal trial lawyer,

I agree, especially on the Due Process issue [selective enforcement claims are rarely an effective defense, right?], but most of RN's sanctimonious critics wouldn't know the difference between DP and TP. They think a Star Chamber is part of a starfish.

Unfortunately, when you start attacking the merit of the so-called "violations," they think you're just being a clever lawyer. They don't want to understand that in a case involving arbitrary, trivial or Byzantine rules [like RN's case] that someone may be treated so unfairly by the process that the "charges" themselves are without any fundamental notion of reliability. In short, a rule isn't really a rule if no one can figure out what the rule is until they're charged with breaking it.

But I digress.

by uclahy on Dec 30, 2007 5:40 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

People who live in glass houses ---

shouldn't throw sour grapes.

I love the way Dohn makes RN's integrity the focal point of his disappointment about the hire.

How about Dohn's own integrity and credibility? Really, Brian, how dare you?

We've already had a thread by Gilbert outlining the very serious ethical violations Dohn has committed while covering this story. He's very lucky that there is no enforcement agency that could take him to task.

Dohn has clearly violated, simple, straightforward standards.

RN has not. The proof that RN did not? $4.5million.

It gets more interesting. After posting this thread, I decided to read the Seattle Times, online, to check out where they are on DW.

From what we've been told by BD, the UW has been hot and heavy for DW for quite a while. He was Ty's choice.

So I went looking for that early story.

I found it -- sort of.

On Dec 19 there was a story that, having been turned down by two OSU candidates, UW was turning to DW.

The source for the story? Not Ty Willingham, who the paper had noted had said nothing. The source? Our very own Brian Dohn. Yeah sure. The Seattle papers report that Willingham has said nothing and Dohn reports that the UW is all over DW. Of course, Dohn didn't give a source.

So, Brian, spare us your moral judgments. Don't call DG a "hypocrite" or challenge the ethical foundation of the hire.

Because when you do, you go against one of those universal moral standards we all learn as children -- people in glass houses shoudn't throw sour grapes.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Dec 30, 2007 8:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Another "home run" post..

Thank you, "66"!

You and others also made a great point, pre-decision, about having patience with Guerrero because he just might be trying to do this hire correctly.

It may come out, as the story unfolds, that a lot of time was taken up with due diligence, vetting Neuheisel's hire with the NCAA. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those meetings, watching those NCAA clowns fidgeting. Hope to goodness that Guerrero's crew swaggered in and said, in effect, that UCLA will mind its p's and q's and not tolerate any picayune bravos sierra.

Nice to know you and Fox 71 are on our side!

by whp68 on Dec 30, 2007 9:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That commentator

is Mark May.

Anything that Mark May says cannot be taken seriously. He has got to be one of the biggest idiots on the face of the planet.

He's a huge USC backer - trust me when I say that if Mark May thinks it's a bad hire, it's most likely a very good hire.

by CAJason80 on Dec 30, 2007 8:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Mark May

Contrast what May had to say about the hire verses Robert Smith and Jesse Palmer earlier in the broadcast. Both Smith and Palmer, along with Rece Davis liked the hire, and had positive things to say about it.

Mark may however was almost salivating all over himself about how bad of a hire it was, and how the NCAA would be constantly watching over UCLA. Goes to show he didn't do his homework, and has no clue what he's talking about. If he did, he'd realize that UCLA did their homework and felt good about RN. Funny too how he doesn't mention anything about the corruption going on across town. I'd love to see him eat his words - UCLA back on top with no transgressions.

by NickBruin on Dec 30, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Shakespeare and lawyers...

One comment made to me by a loyal Husky, near the end of Neuheisel's tenure at UW, attributed RN's "Slick" appellation to the fact that RN was a law school graduate (and I'll forgo any comments regarding $UC's law school) and that RN somehow used that knowledge during the commission of his 'crimes' against CO and UW. Someone (Belli? Spence? Nizer?) once noted that it's not as important to know the law as it is to know how to use the law.

Guilt by association, another color on the palette employed by the hacks that continue to attack Neuheisel.

UCLA - the finest public university in the world

by SecondGenBruin on Dec 30, 2007 8:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

It gets worse!

Bruinroar does a great job of spelling out the details of the so-called violations. They only show what BS the NCAA rules are, all form over substance. My Lord, playing HORSE with a "recruit." Saying goodbye to players is an illegal contact. Contact during the "silent" period is illegal; ooh, don't get up during rest period in Kindergarten either!

The Universities should rebel against this ancient, outmoded, draconian monarchy called the NCAA. What crap Neu gets nailed for nothing, but Belotti who forged a LOI and PC who let Bush live like a king on hundreds of thousands of slush money, get nothing. What BS. And for all this RN is defamed, fired, exiled, banned and reprimanded by his fellow Coaches?

What hypocrisy. What crap. Storm the Bastille. Light the lights on the old church tower. It's time for revolution, baby. If DG really wants to be King of this garbage, my opinion of him will have to be adjusted accordingly.

by uclahy on Dec 30, 2007 8:17 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

It just seems

That the sc hacks and fans are the only ones who seem to have a problem here. Isn't that what we want? We want a coach those people are NOT happy with. We could have made $UC very happy by hiring DW.

Now Colin Cowherd and all his fellow sc homers can sit back and worry about their own NCAA violations, which are NOT secondary are are much more serious than anything any coach at UCLA has ever been accused of.

by dadofgrad06 on Dec 30, 2007 8:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Nestor -- A big chunk of this was lost on the bump

Can you fix it?

sjh

by Class of 66 on Dec 30, 2007 9:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

66

My apologies. Tried to do it from my blackberry. So sorry about that. May be you can edit and splice some of the content in? Again sorry about this as I am traveling.

by Nestor on Dec 30, 2007 12:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No Problem

Is the original diary still in existence so I can cut and paste?

If not, no big deal.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Dec 30, 2007 1:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

unfortunately

This was the original diary. Again sorry about this 66. Hopefully you can retype in some of your thought. I blame my cell! :)

by Nestor on Dec 30, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Cut and paste..

..a good safeguard is to cut and paste your diary into an editor (like -- ugh -- Windows notepad) from time to time as you compose it. Thus, if the big, evil internet monster devours the post, you can always borrow from the residue in the editor. Also, there are a number of free editors in internet land that will also assist with spell checking and HTML tag formatting. Sadly, none (save full-boat word processors) which can provide competent grammar suggestions.

..but, then, that shouldn't e a concern for you at all.

by whp68 on Dec 30, 2007 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

NCAA blessing

The NCAA blessing is probably why it took awhile to hire Skippy. It may have been one of the tasks of the search firm. I mean, DG could have hired Skippy the same day he fired Dorrell. Someone here commented how they would have paid the search firm $500 to "find" RN. That made me laugh!

I think two things happened during the search. Skippy was most likely not DG's first choice but he was a very viable backup, so DG probably employed some people (search firm perhaps) to contact the NCAA and get the NCAA blessing, etc. But I am also pretty confident DG's search firm contacted Petersen, Leach, Mooch, Belotti, and the like. I think DG would have preferred to have hired a big name (though Skippy is a big name - look at all of the internet chatter!). But money or lack of desire to come to Westwood made DG decide to hire Skippy as our next leader.

This is pure speculation.

BTW, I did donate a good sum of money to the UCLA Fund yesterday. I was planning on donating soon, though not necessarily yesterday. But since it is the end of the year and I am very happy that my first choice is our new football coach.(though if Spurrier was truly in the mix, he might trump Skippy on my personal scale - but I don't think he was ever in the mix) . When you donate to the UCLA Fund you can write in a comments section. So I wrote about how happy I am with the RN hire and to keep up the good work on the field, court (Howland is awesome!), and classroom. I also mentioned how proud I am to be a Bruin. Half of my donation went to the Chancellor's greatest needs and the other half went to my academic department from undergrad. Even though my motivation to donate yesterday is athletic-based, I feel much better about donating to the UCLA Fund. Don't know why, just do.

by bruinliv on Dec 30, 2007 9:12 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Want to make your day?

Read Paul Oberjuerg's column in todays Daily News. A real sample of COMPLETE and objective reporting. The gist seems to be that UCLA found playing by the rules to be boring and decided to bring in a crook (RN) to bolster our squeaky clean football program. EXAMPLE: "How to escape that suffocating yoke of righteousness? Close your eyes, hold your nose, and hire someone like Rick Neuheisel".

by Offside on Dec 30, 2007 9:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Followup (replying to myself again)

Does Paul O have his own blog? Perhaps we should give him an appropriate response. It should be a well-reasoned and factual response so that he cannot brush us off as a bunch of wild-eyed fringe group fanatics like the Flat Earch Society.

by Offside on Dec 30, 2007 9:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He's still bitter

over how the Ben Ball Warriors steamrolled San Bernardino earlier this season. Now he's got an axe to grind. Where is the outrage over SUC making a mockery of college athletics with their lack of institutional control? Until I see that article come out, Oberjackass is full of shit.

by Tydides on Dec 30, 2007 10:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's his blog.

Like Doh!n, he asks you to sign up, so people won't be tempted to say anything that might hurt his feelings.

http://www.insidesocal.com/sb/inthiscorner/2007/12/neuheisel_hire_ucla_better_kee.html

by Fedup on Dec 30, 2007 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If the NCAA wants to "get us"

the best way to do it is with the reffing. I always felt when Harrick and Lavin (to a somewhat lesser extent were coaching) we never got the benefit of the doubt. Since a penalty can be called on virtually any play in a football game, it's pretty easy for them to screw us up.

Personally, I think Rick will do just great and we won't have any problems. Rick knows this is his last chance and I think he will be as clean as a whistle this time around. Plus, people love stories like his. Once he has us winning again, we're going to read countless stories about how he was forced to coach high school football in order to get back in the game. People love that shit. I think Rick will bring his version of "Showtime" back to the Bruins. I can't wait to see a real offense again.

by waters96 on Dec 30, 2007 9:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Oddly enough, SUC is our shield

Defending Skippy as a hire is easy: throw SUC under the bus.

Ask why what Neu did was so awful, yet the trOJans are able to pay their players without so much as a peep from the NCAA. Skippy doesn't have a spot free past, but SUC has a dirty and filthy present. Where is the outrage from our local media? We have hacks calling this a hypocritical decision when there is another institution making a complete mockery of all that collegiate athletics stands for right across town with their lack of institutional control. Until any of these hypocrites come out with an article demanding accountability at SUC, they will not have a leg to stand on, because, sadly for them and the SUCsters, they are our shield from criticism, and we should not be afraid to use it

by Tydides on Dec 30, 2007 10:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Mark May

May was spreading this horse shit on espn last night. I am not buying it. Is the NCAA the mafia now? Do they want to try to screw CRN again and pay out another huge settlement?

by njbruin on Dec 30, 2007 10:30 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I ALREADY love Rick's posture (I knew I would)

This seemingly innocuous quote from Rick, I picked up from a Yahoo article dated 12/29, from AP Sports Writer, Ken Peters, tells me everything I need to know about Rick's Reign:

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news;_ylt=AsT2AU0tsmkAyfWlXn5cbgs5nYcB?slug=ap-ucla-neuheisel&prov =ap&type=lgns

"I have told Dan that DeWayne Walker is my No. 1 recruit," Neuheisel said. "I know he's a coveted, sought-after guy because of the way he's performed and the person he is."

What do I see/hear that I love so much?

I told "DAN" (love that first name tone)
"My" (yeah, it's MY show, MY era, I'm in charge)
"No. 1 recruit" (I'ma deal with him FIRST THING, and offer to win him over to MY staff)
Solid references to DeWayne's image.

This should answer anyone's concern that Walker was CRAMMED down Rick's throat.

Hey... as for spending time DEFENDING Rick's so-called past... forget about it guys (and gals). That's water under the bridge. Evaporating, stale water at that!

As for me, I'm gonna enjoy the rest of the BASKETBALL SEASON, peacefully, with no thought at all about the football season, until a week or so AFTER we celebrate Ben's "First of Several", NCAA Men's Basketball titles!

Happy New Year to all! I'll check back in just prior to the next BB game!

by class1984 on Dec 30, 2007 10:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Here's more about DWW

from Rick's interview with Jim Hill/Steve Hartman/Eric Dickerson last night.

http://cbs2.com/sports/UCLA.Football.Neuheisel.2.619974.html

IMO it sounds like he's saying "Too bad you didn't get the HC job and if you want to leave I'll be happy to expedite your departure."

by VenturaHwy73 on Dec 30, 2007 12:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Coaches Hot Seat Blog is RIPPING Coach Neuheisel!

WTF?

UCLA fired Dorrell to hire who? Say it isn't so Dan Guerrero...

Although they are correct in regards that:

"UCLA is INCREDIBLY CHEAP. Yes, UCLA is Costanza-type cheap, and is the kind of guy that always dodges paying the tab, and when it comes right down to it, they are rather proud about being cheap. How sad for both UCLA and it's fans, because there is just no excuse for a school that has such a wealthy donor base to be paying their most public face such disgraceful wage."

The also focus on UCLA's admission process. Briefly, they say what is the difference between accepting someone to UCLA who has a musical talent, has academic talent, or has athletic talent? What happened to the P.C. "diversity"?

those loons in the UCLA admissions department need to join the rest of us on planet Earth. Yes, they are high and mighty when they are spouting their politically-correct crap on creating a more "diverse campus," but when a football player shows up from a disadvantaged background who happens to not have grades that are equal to the rest of the student body, the PC people cannot be found.

Please, the actions of the admissions department at UCLA are beyond hypocrisy and border on outright discrimination against kids that have a talent that is not playing a violin, dancing on a stage, or kissing everyone's butt through high school to pad their college applications. No, these kids are not member of the glee club, but they happen to have the ability to play football, and if a kid can get cleared by the NCAA through their academic clearinghouse, then they should have the opportunity to attend a publicly supported state university.

by mark the bruin on Dec 30, 2007 12:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs