Betting On Karl Dorrell
Looks like you all are keeping this place ROCKIN' Just come by quickly to get this post up courtesy of Bruin Blue. GO BRUINS. -N
In the next few weeks, I will take a little trip to Vegas, for the sole purpose of betting on Karl Dorrell--or rather UCLA, which is to my mind unfortunately being coached by Karl Dorrell, but will have a big year even so. I will bet the "over" on the number of regular season wins for this year's UCLA football team. Right now, the number appears to be at exactly nine. I would prefer eight-and-a-half, of course, but I will take nine if necessary. The only way I can lose such a bet is if UCLA wins eight or less games this season, and I figure there's about a 10% likelihood of that happening.
Yes, there could be injuries (one reason why betting the "over" in season totals is usually not a great bet), but UCLA is well-equipped to handle that, with two QBs who have shown they can win, an offense not dependent on one great running back or wide receiver, and a defense which is veteran and deep. And the schedule is so favorable--something some of the pundits fail to realize, but which is regularly pointed out on Bruin Nation. BYU minus its great QB and other top players, mediocre Utah, and Notre Dame which has only prestige and a promising freshman class to threaten. And the conference is not deep with good teams; USC of course will be great, but other than that, only Cal and Oregon State seem threatening. And of even the first division group, only Oregon State is a road game. So even if we lose that one (and I don't see that we should), we still look to win 10. And beating USC is hardly an impossibility, since Booty is no Leinart or even Palmer, and our defense will be able to stop almost any attack. I actually think that 12-0 is more likely than 9-3, so I am willing to put my money where my opinion is.
But aren't I one of Dorrell's biggest critics? Does this mean that I know have drunk the kool-aid, or whatever unappetizing metaphor Dorrell once used to describe his commitment to the WCO? Well, I approach this season with decidedly mixed feelings, since I would dearly love to get rid of Dorrell, who I still think was a dreadful coaching choice, and who I am convinced will never bring this program to a consistent level of greatness, where I completely believe a good coach would take it and keep it, just as we see happening in basketball. So if Dorrell pulls off 11-1 or even 10-2, I will have to live with the depressing prospect of seeing him around here for five or ten more years, or even twenty, like Donahue. And if he were somehow to be offered an NFL head job (I think that is a good deal more unlikely than people like to rumor), we will unquestionably end up with his assistant DeWayne Walker, a likeable personality who seems like a pretty good defensive coach, but who has certainly not proven his capacity as a head coach. Like so many people here, I want to see UCLA stop acting as if it is a training and proving ground for head coaches, and to start hiring, like the big-time schools do, people who have shown head coaching success and promise at a smaller or even comparable level. I want to see Jim Tressels, Urban Meyers, yes even Pete Carrolls (took two teams to the NFL playoffs), rather than Donahues, Toledos and Dorrells. And with a big year this year, my wish will never come true.
Actually, a good deal of the reason that I am so confident about my win totals prediction is my very strong sense that Dorrell is simply a very lucky person who will somehow manage to do whatever is necessary to save his job. Some people in sports just have that luck, while others do not. I will never forget Terry Donahue, a fundamentally unsound, unimaginative coach who fell into this job because Dick Vermeil took off for the NFL so late, being about to lose his job should he lose for the fifth straight time to USC, and then somehow saving it because Jeff Fisher unaccountably tried to intercept a pass instead of knocking it down, and mistimed his jump, and Freeman McNeil caught the tipped pass and scored the winning touchdown. I remember feeling excited for about thirty seconds, and then realizing that a fairly meaningless win had bought Donahue another five years, which of course turned into fifteen. And Dorrell is at least as lucky as his mentor and cheerleader Donahue.
I remember Dorrell's first year here, going to Tucson to play an absolutely awful Arizona team, and somehow letting that team push UCLA up and down the field, gaining close to 600 yards. But Dorrell got every break in that game-- Arizona penalties after big plays, fumbles in the red zone, a missed chip-shot FG which would have forced overtime. And I remember seeing Dorrell after that last play, that familiar dazed look on his face, as his Bruins, in classic Donahue fashion, had pulled out a game against a team they should have beaten by 25 points. And I thought at that time that Dorrell, another man who absolutely fell into this job, because the sports-clueless Chancellor thought it was more exciting to hire a young, African-American as football coach than someone with credentials, and because the AD relied on a Donahue hack to conduct his coaching search, was one of those unaccountably lucky people. And when we saw Dorrell's third season, where in four separate games, UCLA would have had no chance of winning had the opponent made one more first down against a horrendous Bruin defense, but somehow through over-conservatism and questionable playcalls, the opponent didnt't get that one first down with a couple of minutes to go, and UCLA miraculously pulled out all four games, to turn what probably should have been a 7-5 record into 10-2, everyone should have realized how amazingly lucky this man was.
And then of course came last season, where according to more than one report, Dan Guerrero was all set to fire Dorrell should he lose to USC--but of course he didn't. Yes, credit must be given to a fine effort; but everything set up in UCLA's favor, including the fact that USC was forced to play its fourth straight game against major competition, which is very difficult for even a great team to do; while UCLA had two weeks off. And even so, USC was inexorably driving for the winning touchdown, when a pass was tipped into the air and grabbed by a Bruin defender, and the upset was achieved. A great upset, undoubtedly; except that it fit into a 7-6 season, with losses to Washingon State and 0regon, among others, and another humiliation in a minor Bowl game. And so here Dorrell is again, with his staunch supporters happily forgetting all of the disappointments of last season and of the past four years, ready to anoint him if he finally has a major winning year. And at UCLA, with all its natural advantages which are finally beginning to be accepted as conventional wisdom, ANY coach can have the occasional big year here, if the administration lets him stay long enough. And any coach can win seven games a year here into infinity. Donahue did it. Toledo did it. Pepper Rodgers (with a shorter schedule) did it. Toledo almost won a national championship here, and he is generally regarded by Bruin fans as a joke of a coach. So it is certainly not paradoxical or contradictory to think that Dorrell is another UCLA coaching mediocrity and yet could go 11-1 this season.
Other schools sometimes hire coaches like this, but quickly realize their mistake, and are not fooled by the measure of success they achieve. Ron Zook was 9-3 one year, and actually came within some heartbreaking losses of having comparable seasons,, but Florida knew what was possible with a real coach, and so fired him and grabbed Urban Meyer. Ohio State used to win nine or ten games every year under John Cooper, but got tired of being second best, and hired Jim Tressel. Michigan won a national title under Lloyd Carr, but the faithful are getting sick of him, because they know what should be expected with that kind of talent at hand. But UCLA of course gives their coaches endless rope; and because of the talent available in Westwood, these coaches can almost always do enough to stay above water. Dorrell has wasted four years of our precious lifespans by achieving nothing, but a fifth year success will buy him another five. And that is the chief reason that our USC friends and enemies laugh at us, 13-9 notwithstanding; because they know that even though USC may have down years, or even once in a long while, a down decade; in the long run, they will demand championships and get them; while we will not, as we are ever-satisfied with the occasional big season, and feeling morally superior.
I am utterly, totally sick and tired of being a second-class football program; one which is good for national TV ratings, but which never threatens for a national title, much less wins one. And since I know that Karl Dorrell is not the man to make us what we could be, I am not nearly as excited as some about our potential "perfect storm" season coming up. But one takes what one can get--which in the case of UCLA football over the decades, has been not too much. And I am so confident about our chances this upcoming season that I am willing to bet on it. And if somehow I am wrong and I lose my money--well, I will consider it a very worthwhile donation to the "Get Rid of Karl Dorrell and Hire a Real Coach in Westwood" fund. Unless of course we go 8-4 and Dorrell tells us that we are definitely on the right track, and doing things the right way, and are very close to getting everybody on the same page--and the administration buys it and gives him another extension--at which time I will finally accept the fact that it is time to find another way to enjoy my autumns before the start of basketball season.
- Bruin Blue
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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Let me get this straight...
Some credit is due for the 10-2 season, even if the team blew it in the end. Nobody wins 4 straight games like that by luck (good leadership to get his team up for comebacks), and nobody gets in those situations by (bad) luck (needing to comeback against teams like Stanford), they definitely did not start games well.
Tangentially, starting games well has been a problem for our basketball team of late as well. I love Ben Howland as a coach and a leader, but that is a valid critique.
I am mixed on Karl Dorrell, I like his style (flame on!), think he leads with integrity (#2 reason to be flamed!), but has definitely gotten inconsistent performances from his teams. This year is certainly a barometer, as he has all of his recruits in the program, many of them seniors.
by dicsanch on Aug 11, 2007 12:52 PM PDT reply actions
Wow, 4 straight games
I don't recall our basketball team needing any miraculous comebacks to win games since Gonzaga, and that was over a year ago. I see you're stretching your definition of a slow start to fit your argument, but at no point over the last season were we down the basketball equivalent of 3 touchdowns late in the game. Your critique would have been valid had it not been based on a false premise.
I'll humor you for a second and give you the benefit of the doubt on the slow start premise. This is still an indictment of KD. How? Our basketball team has risen to glory and will take EVERY team's best shot, especially early in the game when they come out guns blazing with the visions of an upset in their eyes. Our football team on the other hand, has lost a considerable amount of respect in the KD era, and I'd be shocked if opposing teams got as geeked up to play us in football as they do in basketball.
I'd just like to know what "style" and "leading with integrity" mean to you in coaching terms. Does it mean having your playcard tucked firmly in your pants? Does "leading with integrity" mean not leading at all while hiring morally questionable individuals in a desperate attempt to save your job?
Thank you for an intelligent start
But before we begin the debate, I would like a few definitions and clarifications.
Are there any other reasons why you are "mixed" on Mr. Dorrell? You cite "his style." You cite his "integrity." Those are apparently positives. You cite "mixed results" which is apparently a negative.
So what exactly is his "style" and what is it about that "style" that you believe makes him the person to lead our football team? Similarly, what is it about his "integrity?" That would not have been a debatable point until it came out that he apparently knew about all Coach Scott's baggage and didn't tell Mr. Guerrero.
And what is your definition of "mixed results?"
I would like to engage you in a discussion of the merits or lack of merits of Mr. Dorrell as a coach, but I want to make sure we don't get bogged down in semantics.
I look forward to your reply.
Style and Integrity...
When I talk about Dorrell's style and integrity,I am referring to a few things that are very important as a COLLEGE football coach and leader of young men.
His style: carries himself with dignity, treats everyone around him with respect, is professional. I firmly believe that this is important in leading young men to be the future leaders of our world.
His integrity: program is cleaned up from the previous (Toledo) regime, very few off field "incidents" and incidents have been handled well IMO. (The E Scott incident is over and I, as posted previously, firmly believe the Athletic Dept was provided the info on E Scott's convictions in his background check. If you have information demonstrating otherwise, please provide a link. If this is your only sticking point on KD's record, you have to bring something else.)
By the way, acolyte is an interesting interpretation of my being "mixed" on Dorrell.
All this being said, he has been very inconsistent, and the bowl game against FSU was by far the worst loss of Dorrell's UCLA career in terms of impact, momentum, recruiting, etc.
So again, I am mixed on Dorrell. But I am looking forward to an exciting football season! Go Bruins!
by dicsanch on Aug 12, 2007 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Style and integrity
His integrity was never a problem for anyone at the BN, as far as I recall, until the Eric Scott business. In fact, the most serious critics of Mr. Dorrell invariably noted that the integrity and character issues were the only positives he brought to the table. I don't know what will come out of the Coach Scott fiasco, and I don't know of Mr. Dorrell will ever tell what he knew and when he knew it.
But there have been reports that Mr. Dorrell knew at least part of Coach Scott's arrest and conviction record, and that Mr. Guerrero knew none of these. (I know you want a link, but my computer skills are limited to typing. I don't know how to do links, although I have seen them. What is worse, as far as I know, there are no links giving any direct quotes from any of the principals which address the issues. I saw quotes from both Mr. Dorrell and Coach Scott after the reinstatement, but they did not touch on the issues of what disclosures were made during the hiring process.
In my opinion, Mr. Dorrell loses his claim on the moral high ground if he knew of the arrest and conviction record and kept that information from Mr. Guerrero. I have know idea what he knew or when he knew it and what he told anyone else. But in a case like this, I don't think he can continue to claim a spotless reputation unless he provides the details which have so far not been provided.
So as of now, I am unwilling to give you either of the two subjective and nearly unmeasurable issues - style or integrity. Naturally, any subjective issue cannot be accurately measured.
While you consider whether there is any point to more debate on subjective matters, take a look at this list of objective factors. I'm not particularly good at looking this stuff up, so it's an old list, and more things have been added, but this will give you an idea of what you have to overcome to convince anyone to change their opinion from "he must be fired now" to "my feelings are mixed." Remember also - when Mr. Dorrell was hired, he listed three goals for the program - beat justsc, compete for Pac-10 championships, and go to BCS bowl games. These were Mr. Dorrell's goals, not goals which were imposed on him from the outside.
- 1-3 against Southern Cal.
- No Pac-10 championships.
- No BCS bowl games.
- 1-3 in bowl games (all minor bowl games)
- 1-10 on the road against teams with a winning record.
- Worst starting 3- AND 4- year record of any UCLA football coach since WW2, including Bob Toledo who was fired.
- Worse winning percentage than Bob Toledo, who was fired.
- 3-11 against ranked teams.
- 2-7 against top 10 teams.
- Only 6 conference wins against teams who finished over .500.
- 19-14 against Pac-10 teams.
- 8-17 against teams with a winning record.
- 10 losses to unranked teams.
- He has a losing record after October, 6-12.
- Embarrassing losses to Wyoming, Fresno State, Arizona, Southern Cal, Florida State
- Revolving door for assistant coaches.
- 80% of Bruins fans polled on Bruinsnation.com disapprove of the job KD is doing.
Other Standards for Integrity
KD refuses to take responsibilty for most of the mistakes and failures in the program. Problems and mistakes are always someone else's fault. The latest, wasting Johnson's year. Instead of saying, "I made a mistake, the buck stops with me" he blamed a now gone coach who is not here to defend himself.
Throughout his career at UCLA, KD has pointed the finger of failure at someone else.
I define "integrity" to include taking full responsibility for ones successes and failures and the willingness to admit mistakes. Displacing blame, when one is the CEO, is not high on my integrity scale.
And, the failure to simply tell us what he knew about Scott and when he knew it is another example of simply not standing up and taking responsibility for an act.
As I've said often, if he hired Scott knowing about his past problems, and he let the athletic program know about those problems, I would support him. In fact, I would laud his willingness to extend a second chance to a past Bruin player. But, this waffling does not show me much.
Yes, KD projects the appearance of integrity. And, perhaps, in the big picture of his coaching, that is the least of his problem areas. But, it is wrong to say he is a man of unquestionable virtue and integrity, and, that he has brought those virtues to our football program.
by Class of 66 on Aug 12, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
brilliant post
Teams are out to beat UCLA with a fast and furious start out of the gate, as Florida showed some success with. So we are naturally going to start the game off taking the opponents best shot. But one of the great strengths of Howland teams is that they are so disciplined and poised, and well managed on the court, that those best shots were brushed off. Your criticism is missing arguably the greatest strength of Howland coached teams, which makes your "critique" ridiculous.
I think you proved my point...
I was simply comparing that to UCLA's 10-2 season. Four incredible comebacks is not a coincidence or "luck" as the original poster stated.
In both teams I observed sluggish starts. In both teams I observed great runs and perseverance for second half wins.
So nobody is confused (or think I'm crazy), I believe Ben Howland to be the best coach in college basketball and Karl Dorrell not to be in the top 15-20 in Div 1 football (but certainly not in the bottom 15-20 as many posters here seem to believe). I believe the general opinion here at Bruins Nation is that Dorrell is a "joke" or a "clown", and that Ben Howland walks on water. I believe the truth to be somewhere in the middle for both.
Since I am only one man with limited time, I will not be able to respond to everybody who has responded to me. I have tried to respond to the most well thought our posts, and not the silly, repetitive ones.
by dicsanch on Aug 12, 2007 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions
wrong again
Expand on this please
Specifically KD's play calling, you are right that he had to ditch Cable's game plan and air it out but wasn't it that play calling in the 2nd half (adjustments) what won those games and that the players executed those plays well?
Against Florida we fell apart after some key turnovers and can't necessarily blame KD. Those are the breaks and the breaks in the 2nd half went the other way. We had our chance in the 2nd half to stay in the game but momentum was clearly in FSU hands.
JMHO - but please expand on the above, you were making a point but I think you came up short with this example.
by BruinFan73 on Aug 14, 2007 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Does the Coach Impact the Game?
The other side of the coin is whether Mr. Dorrell should take the blame for devastating come-from-ahead losses. Bruinfan73 and others suggest that Mr. Dorrell can't really be blamed for that because of turnovers and bad breaks. To put this in perspective, should Cheatie Petie be blamed for 13-9, given the key turnover and "bad breaks?" In my opinion, sure. His team should have won that game, but he was outcoached (by Coach Walker, not by Mr. "let's punt on their 35 in the first quarter" Dorrell.)
In my opinion, coaching errors such as those chronicled at length here do in fact cost us games. Once in a while players will overcome those coaching errors, but more often than not they won't. In those great comeback games, DO and MJD did brilliant things. We don't know if BO can do those things, but it's been fairly well demonstrated that PC can't hit the long bomb the way DO could, and none of our running backs are in the same league as MJD.
So without those star players with special skills, the one remaining constant is the coaching. The coach has to have his team ready to play for 60 minutes, not 59 and not 30 as shown last year. The coach has to have a strategy that will allow his players to have a chance, and this does not include a punt in the first quarter from the other team's 35 yard line. The coach has got to figure out a way that the most highly recruited QB in the world can put the ball in the end zone when he gets inside the 20, not go 0 for 6 as in the most recent practice.
We haven't had a coach who could do that in the past five years.
It's funny
Here's the basketball situation. Generally the opposing team comes in fired up and ready to go. They might use that adrenaline to fuel a 5-7 point lead, but the Ben Howland team remains in striking distance and plays with consistency and defensive intensity. By halftime, Howland's team is either within 2-4 points or has taken the lead back outright. This doesn't even factor in the games that OUR team considers big and simply blows the other team off the floor from the word "go" (UW, Michigan, Oregon, etc.)
You overstate the number of "sluggish" starts that there were, and furthermore expand the definition of sluggish to include some of our basketball games, when in reality, our basketball team does not fall behind by the equivalent of 3 touchdowns late in the game. You do not get credit for an "incredible" comeback that should not have been necessary in the first place. I'd respect it if KD made those comebacks the Howland way: keeping his team within a TD or a field goal and then storming back at the end with a brilliant drive.
In the case of football, it's more like KD bumbling his way through the first 3 quarters until he reaches a seemingly insurmountable deficit. He then casts his pants playbook to the wind and tells MJD to "do his thing", and turn his broken plays into TDs to fuel the "incredible comebacks". If you watched the games, you know how many of those plays were dead out of the huddle, only to have been resurrected by Olson, Lewis, and MJD's incredible talent. Yet, KD gets credit for the "incredible comeback"? I don't think so. I've got the games on my computer, and this point only becomes more obvious upon further review.
It is sad that the best the KD supporters can do now is proclaim that he's "not in the bottom 15-20". That he was outcoached and outschemed by the likes of Rice last year notwithstanding, that's not quite the bar that we want to set for UCLA football.
In short, the only posts I have found to be silly and repetitive are the ones that attempt to tear down our basketball success to somehow mitigate the failures of a mediocre football coach. The comparisons are ludicrous, and KD shills would be wise to avoid those comparisons like the plague, as it only reminds us all of KD's incompetence (back to back Final Fours vs. losing the Nut Bowl).
Getting it straight
by Oldguy on Aug 11, 2007 2:12 PM PDT reply actions
The SC win, the 10-2 season and that's it.
SC win and 10-2 were the highlights of KD's career after 4 years.
UCLA football should be more than this. Other Bruins don't care, but we at BN do. Our beloved university deserves to have more than a clown for a headcoach: "We are finally praciticing well..." This is something only a clown/coach could say.
Bruin Blue -- Outstanding Post
I, too, will take the bet that we win more than 8.5 games -- and do it very much with your state of mind.
Now, as to the leadership from the coaching staff that led to the 4 comeback wins, I was there for some of them and recall, clearly, that coaching had absolutely nothing to do with them.
Blue has it right. Bonehead calls and plays by the opposition AND heroic plays by the 2 Drews and Marcedes who, in spite of Dorrell, refused to lose.
No one who has watched us over the last few years can say that we out coach schools in the second half. Notre Dame? Does the Nut Bowl escape minds?
And, finally, no one in his or her right mind can compare a Howland coached basketball team that has consistently made the right moves in the second half to a Dorrel managed team. (Yes, 71, I'm using "managed" in your honor because you are right, he isn't coaching). As to the Gonzaga game, we beat a team that was FAVORED over us.
I guess it's crazy time. Blue authors a great post and somehow Dorrell supporters come out to twist and spin.
They will have a big year because I agree with Blue, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, and this manager is very lucky. He has the players and schedule to have a great season -- despite his limitations. So, I'll bet the over on our wins.
sjh
PS. I am fond of saying that a big season will send KD to the Pro's and be a win:win. But, truth be told, I cannot see why any pro team would want him -- even with a big year this year. How can anyone want a head coach who can't hire and keep a stable coaching staff? Who has no game management skills? Cannot adjust? And, does not seem to have leadership skills. Dorrell to the pro's -- total wishful thinking.
In Vegas Now
The better bet is for UCLA to win the NCAA basketball championship.
Dorrell, win me $70...
It looks like dicsanch is like Lute
Discanch - if you're reading any of this, we really do want to debate this issue with you. We're here to convince you and to change your mind, not to insult you. Get your facts together and let's go at it.
Is it possible...
As for the Gonzaga game, we weren't favored. We were the #2 seed and Gonzaga was the 3 seed. However, when post experts picked their brackets the last two years very few of them had UCLA going to the Final Four.
how is #2 vs. #3 not favored...?
by dicsanch on Aug 12, 2007 1:57 AM PDT up reply actions
ooops...
by lil eg not cs on Aug 12, 2007 4:02 AM PDT up reply actions
You had it right the first time
Gonzaga shouldn't have been a 3
by SuperBruinMan on Aug 12, 2007 5:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I think your $$ is as good as gone, my friend
I think this team is really going to struggle moving the ball this year. Reports out of training camp seem to indicate real weaknesses in our O-line, and that's never a good sign. I also have this bad feeling that our kicking game will break our hearts more than a few times this year.
Our defense is good, but not spectacular (see FSU game)
Our schedule is favorable, but (taking into account the "Dorrell-factor") let's examine it closely, looking at the potential "problem areas":
1. 2 out of our 1st 3 games are on the road. Dorrell's road record sucks. Both games are very winnable on paper, but don't forget the Dorrell-factor.
2. at Oregon St. The Beavers will be good this year. Maybe Top 25. See Dorrell's road record against winning teams.
3. Notre Dame. Everyone here is chalking this one up as a W. Maybe they're right. But think about this: Weis vs. Dorrell. 40,000 green-clad Notre Dame fans. Weis vs Dorrell. I don't know...
4. Cal. They're pretty good too. Wire to wire top 25. See Dorrell's record against ranked teams.
then.....
5. two straight on the road, against WSU and Arizona. Again, both winnable on paper. Again, don't forget the Dorrell-factor.
6. Oregon. I don't think we've beaten this team at the Rose Bowl since the Cade McNown vomit game. Correct me if I'm wrong.....
7. SUC.
Now there's 7 "potential problems" I've identified, citing the Dorrell-factor, and if I'm right about 5 of those, then there's 7-5.
Bottom line, I don't think betting on Dorrell is a wise bet. Hopefully, your house isn't riding on it!
by godblesstyus95 on Aug 11, 2007 11:11 PM PDT reply actions
Same here
I will put up a diary later with my predictions and thoughts for every game...not that anyone cares but I have to get it out of my system.
Finally...to that dude who wants to give Dorell credit for the 2005 comebacks: where was that amazing coach last year when we were getting schooled by Washington, Washington State and Florida State in the second half? Oh, and by the way, we had "slow starts" against Oregon and Cal...and still got pounded. The magical comebacks never happened. Guess Dorrell has lost his mojo. And he definitely does not make me randy.

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