"UW coach Romar surprised by attention given Morris' play"

by dokein on Feb 12, 2008 4:10 PM PST Comment 42 comments

Bumped. Also UCngLA has compiled a list of all the email addresses you may want to send a message to re this incident. GO BRUINS. -N

From the Seattle Times:

SEATTLE — Washington coach Lorenzo Romar is surprised by all the attention being given to Tim Morris' pass off Alfred Aboya's face in the closing seconds of Washington upset of UCLA.

Romar said Tuesday that it is unfortunate the play is getting as much negative press as it is and has overshadowed the Huskies win over the Bruins.

Everybody should see this picture; as mbx's frame-by-frame analysis clearly shows, Romar is either a moral chasm and/or legally retarded:

Click on the image to enlarge. -N

Since legally retarded people are generally not head coaches, only option 1 remains. This is a great picture by mbx, and it should be sent to McCabe, Howland, and Romar, and the press.

It is clear that the ENTIRE throwing motion begins and ends while Aboya's feet are on the floor. Therefore, we have to wonder how a Pac-10 official (McCabe) can say with a straight face, "[...] he jumps to the right and the ball hits him in the face. [...]"

And just for completeness' sake, I would just like to add that nobody--not McCabe, not Romar, not anybody on the UW team--would ever do that to someone as scary looking as Aboya in any place without 50 cameras and thousands of eyewitnesses.

Update Since this diary's conception, the contents of the Seattle article have significantly changed. The above quotes, including the title, are from the original article. The following is from the changed article.

"I am surprised,'' said UW coach Lorenzo Romar. "One national columnist went as far as to say that Morris should have his scholarship revoked, and legendary UCLA coach John Wooden told the Los Angeles Times that he would have immediately benched Morris."

The outpouring of opinion caused Romar to take a few minutes of out of usual meeting with the media Tuesday to defend Morris for a second straight day, and Morris to explain what happened on the play in detail for the first time.

Morris said he simply was trying to bail his team out of a bad situation as he was attempting to inbounds the ball in front of the UCLA bench with the five-second count nearing. The Huskies led by five at the time.

"It was honestly just a reaction,'' said the 6-foot-4 senior. "We ran a play where guys are curling off and none of them were open and (UCLA) coach (Ben) Howland was in the way so I couldn't throw deep and I just reacted. He (Aboya) was so close I just kind of turned. I didn't mean to (hit him in the face). I didn't want to turn the ball over. He was so close. He's a big guy (6-9, 245) so I couldn't throw it off his knee and if I threw it at his torso he would have caught it. So it was just a reaction.''

As Morris noted, Howland was standing near Morris with his arms upraised, apparently trying to implore his players to raise their arms.

"He was definitely in the way,'' Morris said. "That's why I couldn't hit (teammate) Quincy (Pondexter) because he was definitely open.''

As Tydides says in the comments section, that whining completely invalidates his one apology to Aboya.

What Romar needs to understand, is that it is under pressure that one's true character comes out. Nobody is a dirty player when their team is up by 30, or when they're 2 years old.

Let's keep up the pressure!

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.

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Boohoo

Don't like the negative press and the overshadowing of your win? Man up, accept responsibility, issue a public apology and a condemnation and it goes away and you can go back to celebrating your win. It is Romar's inaction that is at the root of this problem and he has no one to blame but himself. Better yet, teach your thugs not to hurl basketballs in people's faces, jackass.

by Tydides on Feb 12, 2008 4:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

As I have said elsewhere

a Romar apology at this point would not be sincere. He's lost all of my respect for him.

by bluegold on Feb 12, 2008 4:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I was suggesting that's what he should have done before opening his mouth if he was so concerned over his precious win being overshadowed by his own buffoonery. It's far too late now for an apology. Maybe if he suspended Morass for a couple of games, that would be sufficient.

by Tydides on Feb 12, 2008 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So called "Christian"

I love how Romar is all "Christian" when its convenient, but when things get tough, he has no morals. What a sell out loser.

"when you've seen how big the world is, how can you make due with this?"

by silverlakebruin on Feb 12, 2008 4:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Nestor

For reformatting the post and adding UCngLA's compilation.

by dokein on Feb 12, 2008 4:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Anyone have Bill McCabe's email address?

The conference coordinator for men's officiating that offered the BS explanation for what happened--Aboya is clearly not jumping into the ball.

by Westwood Wizard on Feb 12, 2008 4:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

From UCngLA's post:

bmccabe@pac-10.org

by dokein on Feb 12, 2008 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It is an insult to people with eyes

that he thinks he can get away with that bullshit explanation. If he acknowledged what happened and then talked about intent, that's one thing. But he blamed the victim, which is a complete insult. If I kicked McCabe in the nuts, would he accept that he moved his balls in the way of my foot? I don't think so.

by Tydides on Feb 12, 2008 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why Can't They Just Admit the Mistake?

The frame-by-frame (great graphic, by the way) clearly shows that Morris was looking directly at AA. His follow through indicates how he aimed it right at AA's face. Why is it so difficult for people to admit a mistake was made? Why does the Pac-10 feel the need to hide behind a convoluted explanation?

I don't hear even the most devoted UCLA fan claiming the results of the game should be questioned. The concern is for both the safety of the players and the integrity of the officiating. Mistakes happen. Admit them, apologize as necessary, and move on. Creating a cover-up just impugns the integrity of those who are responsible for ensuring that there is a level playing field for all games. The Pac-10 has backed itself into a corner that will be difficult to get out of when a similar incident occurs, only the player is seriously injured.

by Bruin77 on Feb 12, 2008 4:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

He didn't mean to do it.

Except that, in his own words, he actually did:

"He was so close. He's a big guy (6-9, 245) so I couldn't throw it off his knee and if I threw it at his torso he would have caught it. So it was just a reaction.''

How Romar can say Morris didn't mean to do it when Morris has given the excuse that he had no place else to throw it is beyond me.

by Chandler on Feb 12, 2008 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

emails sent

Just sent a long email to hansen and mccabe explaining that UCLA fans as well as the great John R. Wooden are not pleased with the response given by not only mccabe himself but romar included, and that we'd still appreciate an apology from the officiating crew or pac ten officials because romar has already lost respect in our eyes.

O.A.

by Ollie on Feb 12, 2008 4:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

and i attached this quote

Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.
John Wooden

hoping to at least spark a little guilt in them lol

O.A.

by Ollie on Feb 12, 2008 4:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Why don't we send it to them?

In another post, there was a list of addresses (too livid to do the research at this point in time). I am going to make sure it gets into the hands of those chickensh-t a--holes up at Washington and the PAC-10.

To hell with being civilized! AA2 and the Bruins are beign gentlemen about this and THEY NEED TO HAVE SOME FOLKS TAKE UP FOR THEM!

(sorry for raising my voice, but..)

God, it's great to be a Bruin!

by whp68 on Feb 12, 2008 5:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

great job everyone

keep it going. let's make sure no one even remembers that UDUB even won the game. Justice has to be served and these Pac-10 officials need to be exposed to the point of utter humiliation. BTW, off topic, my post regarding a couple of us non-player Bruins returning the favor to Morris when he comes to Staples got deleted, and I completely understand and respect the moderators' decision. UCLA is classy and respectable. But just for the hell of it, deep inside y'all kinda felt like it didn't ya?!! ;)

Go Bruins!

by tommybruin on Feb 12, 2008 5:09 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

You missed the best part

Romar says, "If Tim Morris would have reared back and aimed at the guy's face and hit him in the face, we would have had problems, him and I. But that wasn't what happened."

Which begs the question: what exactly would "rearing back and aiming at the guy's face and hitting him in the face" look like, if this isn't it?

And read Morris' explanation:

"It was honestly just a reaction ... He (Aboya) was so close I just kind of turned. I didn't mean to (hit him in the face). I didn't want to turn the ball over. He was so close. He's a big guy (6-9, 245) so I couldn't throw it off his knee and if I threw it at his torso he would have caught it. So it was just a reaction."

Though I don't understand how Aboya would have caught the ball hitting him in the torso with his hands in the air (probably in a similar fashion to how Westbrook held Dentmon while standing straight with his arms up in the air), this makes it seem like Morris thought "I need to throw it off of him, but I can't do the knee or the chest. FACE!" And then realized, "Oh, I just hit the guy in the face."

The kid screwed up. I'm even willing to buy that he realized this and that his apology to Aboya was sincere. But the Pac 10's response, and Romar's response, well, they're positively Orwellian, disgusting, and unacceptable.

by Chronicles on Feb 12, 2008 5:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

To borrow a quote from a great Bruin...

(The Pac-10 and Romar's) arrogance is an insult to people who think.

by psyberchologist on Feb 12, 2008 5:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

surprised; also give aboya major cred

I am shocked to hear this from Lo Romar. I've always thought he was a hard-working head coach and a decent guy, not to mention formerly one of our own, and this is simply outrageous. I understand protecting your team--but seriously, you have to get this right. Very, very disappointing.
Forget 50 cameras and thousands of people. I'm pretty certain that most players would've gone straight for that guy's face to show him the feeling, no matter where it happened. Would any of you be able to just brush that off immediately? I have absolutely no idea how Aboya held back--truly amazing restraint on his part. Major props for being the man in the situation.

by jjreicher on Feb 12, 2008 6:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I didn't mean it that way--

If I had thrown the basketball full into someone's face like that, I would expect to get clobbered.

But without the camera's and witnesses, if it were against someone as fearsome-looking as Aboya, I would be AFRAID FOR MY LIFE.

by dokein on Feb 12, 2008 6:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I have lost all respect for Romar

Here was a guy I held in high esteem; for the time he put in on our '95 National Championship team, for fielding competive teams since his hiring at UW.

But trying to pretend nothing happened is in my mind equitable to sanctioning and approving Tim Morris' actions.

Romar should recieve an honorary degree from South Central for the thug like action of one of his players, and his own thug like mentality in choosing to look the other way.

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. John Wooden

by MexiBruin on Feb 12, 2008 7:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

My email to McCabe

Based on the article in the Times today:

"There's no doubt in my mind that Aboya jumped in front of the ball," McCabe said Monday afternoon. "There's no doubt in my mind that Aboya caused the contact."

No doubt in your mind? Really? Care to revise that statement, Mr. McCabe?
http://pixel.princeton.edu/~mburns/images/aboya.jpg

I can only imagine that this statement came from someone who hadn't seen the play at the time the statement was made. There is no way a person with two functioning eyes and (presumably) a functioning brain could have come to such a conclusion. In a game which saw referees attempt to award the ball to Washington (before being reversed) on two out of bounds plays, one on which the ball hit three Huskies before going out of bounds, and another that actually hit a Husky player sitting out of bounds, I find it funny that the most asinine moment of the entire game, your statement, didn't come until long after it was completed. Quite honestly, that comment is almost as disgraceful as the play in question. You should be embarrassed that it made it into print.

by LA Seitz on Feb 12, 2008 7:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Really a shame

That this kind of thing had to happen to Aboya. He is the definition of a Bruin Warrior, and although he may not get the credit on the stat sheet, he represents everything that is good about fundamental hard-nosed team basketball

by Dante on Feb 12, 2008 9:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

My e-mail to Tom Hansen...

Commissioner Hansen,

This note is in response to the ruling by Bill McCabe on the play in which Tim Morris of Washington threw a ball off the face of UCLA's Alfred Aboya on an in-bound play in the second half of last Sunday's game. In an effort to protect the inept officiating crew on Sunday, McCabe ruled today that upon review, Aboya moved to the right and was accidentally hit in the face. This is a completely ridiculous argument for two reasons. 1. Aboya never moved from side to side as is clearly shown in the video footage (see link below for replay). 2. Tim Morris was attempting to avoid a 5 second call and was trying to bounce the ball off of Aboya and out of bounds. In that case, he WAS trying to hit Aboya with the ball and it was NOT an accident. Choosing to wind up like a pitcher and throw hard at an opposing player's face (especially one who has already suffered a broken orbital bone earlier in the season) was nothing short of unsportsmanlike conduct and should have resulted in a technical foul.

It is absolutely embarrassing and irresponsible of the Pac-10 to allow such unsportsmanlike actions to occur without consequence. Additionally, it shows complete cowardice and incompetence on the part of Bill McCabe to make such a ridiculous argument to try and protect his officiating crew which CLEARLY missed this call. By your ruling this is setting a horrible precedent in which Pac-10 players are given carte blanche to throw a ball at any opposing player's face without consequence. I respectfully and strongly hope that you take this matter into your own hands and ensure that proper consequences ensue.

GO BRUINS!

by rgalloucla on Feb 12, 2008 9:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Best Excuse Yet

In the Seattle Times article, Morris also tries to blame Coach Howland, saying Coach was in the way and prevented him from throwing the ball in. Check out the video again -- Coach Howland is a good 10-15 feet away from Morris the whole time.

by vanaaron on Feb 12, 2008 10:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

These assholes are shameless

Do they not realize that people have video and pictures that refute their bullshit? The more MorAss opens his mouth, the more he looks like a mealy mouthed piece of shit. Way to invalidate the apology to Aboya, the one saving grace he had, by making excuses and bringing yet another person into his circle of blame. The only thing I want to hear out of any of these assholes from this point forward is an apology and an admission of guilt.

I pray that one day he has kids and some punk kid does this to one of them. I guarantee he'll feel a whole lot different about it then. Karma already got Hackett for his cheapshot on Mata-Real earlier this year. Maybe a broken ankle for MorAss is in order.

The incident itself was bad. The response to it from the Pac 10, the UW administration, and this MorAss son-of-a-bitch is infuriating.

by Tydides on Feb 12, 2008 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

EXACTLY

"Way to invalidate the apology to Aboya, the one saving grace he had [...]"

by dokein on Feb 12, 2008 10:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you Mr. Hansen!

Dear Commissioner Hansen,

I want to thank you for Bill McCable's recent statement defending the Washington Huskies' Tim Morris and refusing to punish him for throwing a basketball off the face of UCLA's Alfred Aboya at point blank range last weekend. Further, I applaud Mr. McCable's dismissing this gruesome action as "unintentional" and faulting Aboya for clearly and deliberately placing his face in the path of the ball.

For too long, basketball has been an elegant sport, dominated by gifted, graceful athletes competing at the top of their game. What a bore, right? Where's the spirit of thuggery and impromptu violence we have come to expect from the NBA? The fights, the coach-choking, the occasional player sailing into the stands to scuffles with fans?

Well, it is very heartening to know that the Pac-10 will now condone ruthless, violent acts, and more importantly, that it is willing to let such acts go unpunished - and even unacknowledged! It should certainly elevate the game for fans of all ages and add that missing element of violence that has been lacking for so long. I can hardly wait to see who gets a basketball rocketed into their face next. Or the groin. Or the throat. My gosh the possibilities are endless!

From a marketing perspective, it's also a brilliant move to embrace the bare-fisted, Mixed-Martial Arts mentality that is so attractive to sports fans today. I for one look forward to seeing more "unintentional" (wink wink) acts of brutality in future games, since they will be implicitly encouraged by Mr. McCable and his "officials."

Thank you.

by Fedup on Feb 12, 2008 11:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

On the topic of fights in the stands...

Did anyone else notice that the team benches were on the same side as the student section? I'm not sure I've seen that anywhere else, and it seems like a big safety hazard for both teams' players.

by SuperBruinMan on Feb 12, 2008 11:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The convention seems to be

That the camera faces the benches. So if you can see the student section, they're behind the bench, and I think there are several places where the students are visible in such a way.

by jaffa on Feb 13, 2008 12:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not unique

While having students on the opposite side of the court from the benches is the more common configuration, there are a few other schools that put students behind the benches - UVa for one. Other than allowing the school to sell more courtside seats (without resorting to UCLA's solution of putting a row of seats between the students and the court), I do not know if there is any reason for doing so.

by bruinhoo on Feb 13, 2008 1:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What's Commissioner Hansen's Email?

I plan to send an email to McCabe and copy Hansen.

by BruinFan87 on Feb 13, 2008 12:01 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Passing the buck

First it's Aboya's fault... now it's also Ben's fault? Next thing you know Morris is gonna blame UCLA for defending the inbounds pass in the first place. It's all UCLA's fault for trying to win a game by forcing the turnover.

by UCLA4Life on Feb 13, 2008 5:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Confirmed my observation

Morris' comments--and the great photographic evidence--confirm what I was thinking yesterday, that Morris freaked out and reacted violently to Aboya's pressure. The fault, in the first place, is with the ref, who could have backed AA up 3 feet, if Morris didn't have enough space on the sideline. Morris' saying "he was just so close" confirms what is obvious, that Aboya was all over him and playing smothering defense. But AA didn't do anything wrong, and Morris has no excuse for his reaction and violent act.

The fact that Morris said Howland was behind him--which is another untruth--also speaks to the fact that he didn't have enough room on the sideline to back up a little and away from AA's defense. Everybody except AA is at fault. The ref botched the play BEFORE, DURING, and of course afterwards when they didn't give Morris an unsportsmanlike technical--but it was the refs' fault in the first place. Morris, Romar, and the Pac 10 are at fault for the reasons discussed at length on the posts and the threads.

by zhivooden on Feb 13, 2008 7:24 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ball Trajectory

The photos clearly show the ball trajectory is right at Aboya's face. No question. Getting frustrated with another player is no excuse for such actions. From playground hoops and on, players know that chucking a ball at a dude's face is grounds for getting your teeth knocked out. That's why we never see that happen in college or the pros.

I understand defending your player as a coach, but this is indefensible Romar. People have lost respect for you. Even if you did't bench Morris during the game, issue an apology right after the game.

I say we let Kevin Love threw a laser love outlet right at Morris' nose at point blank range.

by apbruin on Feb 13, 2008 9:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Hear you man

But that would make us no better than Morris.

by brewinz on Feb 13, 2008 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Assault and Battery??

I wonder if this qualifies as an assault and battery, and if criminal charges can be brought against Morris. Any attorneys willing to comment?

by brewinz on Feb 13, 2008 12:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I don't do criminal law

so take all this with a grain of salt. Fundamentally, the prosecuter has to prove intent, and I think intent can be inferred from the conduct. Does anyone think that Morris did not intend to do what he did?

I do civil stuff. Would this be a civil battery? Sure - it's a harmful or offensive touching. Would punitive damages be imposed? You have to prove malice by clear and convincing evidence (which means in this context that the evidence has to show that Morris probably did it on purpose, not just by tipping the scales a little bit (a preponderance of the evidence).

A defense is assumption of risk, that what happened is the sort of thing that's part of the game. There have been plenty of cases that found liability (and plenty that found no liability) in the sport context. Here, though, I think a judge seeing what happened would be hard-pressed to find a fastball to the face from a foot away is part of the game.

Remember the Kermit Washington-Rudy Tomjanovich business? Kermit ended up paying big bucks on that one.

Would I take the case? Probably not - venue would seems to be proper only in Seattle. And reading what some of the Seattle people say about the play, I don't think I could find enough jurors who could understand the oath to make up a jury. The population of Seattle seems to have a combined IQ that's mid-two digits.

I think the outcome of this is going to be a serious injury to someone. The Pac 10 (and at least the college of Washington (they don't deserve the honorific "University")) have said that the play is OK. So as some point, someone is going to say, "Hmm, who do I want to take out of the game? justsc only has one scorer? OK, I'll throw a fastball into his face.) The Pac 10 doesn't criticize that at all, let alone think that there should be any penalties that attach. And by extension, it doesn't have to be an out of bounds play. Just wait for OJ2 to guard the guy with the ball, and toss a high hard one into his nose. That puts him on the bench, and no one can say a thing because the Pac 10 has just set precedent.

The more I think about it, the more I think UCLA ought to get out of the Pac 10 and become an independent. The spitters at Oregon and the thugs at Washington deserve the Pac 10 and vice versa. But we (and our 100 NCAA trophies) surely don't need them.

by Fox 71 on Feb 13, 2008 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Implied consent

It's a physical game, and because what he did was in the context of the game (i.e., it wasn't a punch thrown in a fight or something), I imagine that implied consent would be an affirmative defense. Much the same way it would be difficult to bring a suit over, say, an overly physical pick that included a forearm to the face or something.

by LA Seitz on Feb 13, 2008 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

It's a lot easier to defend such a case, or at least I think it would be. I've never handled something like that.

by Fox 71 on Feb 13, 2008 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

After review

I take back my agreement with your pitch, Seitz. There could be lots of implied consent and lots of assumption of the risk. But no one either expressly or impliedly consents to a sucker punch like the one delivered to Aboya. There is no excuse for that. Aboya might have consented to something like that if he were doing martial arts, but not basketball.

Again, look at Tomjanovich v. Washington. Kermit paid big time. (In fact, I think there's a reported decision.)

There might be assumption of the risk in a hard pick (which I think is the holding in Knight v. Jouett), but not in what AA2 took.

by Fox 71 on Feb 13, 2008 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Two differences

I don't believe that the Washington punch occurred within the context of the game. I believe it was during an actual fight, or at least there was clearly no basketball related purpose (see also Marty McSorely nailing Donald Brashear in the head). Second, no debilitating injury to Aboya. You still have to prove damages, and Aboya has already made statements to the effect that it was no big deal, and he wasn't hurt in any way (assuming no injury 'appears' in the near future).

I think Morris is a thug, and I think his actions were and continue to be reprehensible, but I don't see any legal recourse.

But what do I know, I went into tax after law school.

by LA Seitz on Feb 13, 2008 8:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

To add - From Washignton's wiki page

Washington is best remembered for punching opposing player Rudy Tomjanovich during an on-court fight on December 9, 1977. Washington was currently engaged in a brawl when he saw Tomjanovich running towards the altercation, so Washington swung around to meet him. The punch, which took Tomjanovich by surprise, fractured his face about 1/3 of an inch away from his skull and left Tomjanovich unconscious in a pool of blood in the middle of the arena. Players involved often say that right after Tomjanovich collapsed, the silence at the arena, filled with shocked fans, was "the loudest silence you have ever heard."[1] Upon later inspection by the doctors at the scene, it was discovered that Rudy was actually leaking spinal fluid into his mouth, and that not only his basketball career, but his life was in danger at that point. Tomjanovich would later recount that at the time of the incident, he believed a scoreboard fell on him.

This was not an in-game event. It was a fight outside the normal course of a basketball game. I'm just saying, It's easy for Morris to make arguments like accident, etc. Tough to do that when you literally punch a dude in the face with your fist.

And still, the damages thing gives me pause.

by LA Seitz on Feb 13, 2008 8:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was being a little facetious about not

taking the case because of a Washington jury, but you're right, there are no damages. To get punitives, you have to have some compensatory damages.

But that's not to say it wouldn't be fun to take a few depos, especially of the brain surgeons from UW who have been trying to explain away the obvious.

And the Tomjanovich business is coming back. Rudy was Houston's star player, and was gone for a long time. They sued Washington to recover the wages they had to pay him even though he couldn't play, and the incremental revenue they lost because they didn't make the playoffs without him. My memory says that the case stands for the proposition that a master cannot recover for negligently inflicted damages to his servant, but that's obviously wrong because the way Washington cold-cocked Tomjanovich was not even close to negligent. Ah, well, you know what they say about memory being the second thing to go.

by Fox 71 on Feb 13, 2008 10:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs