Ben Ball Gameday Roundup & Notes: UCLA's Enemies Come Out
I wasn't fortunate enough to be around during the glory years of Coach John R. Wooden.
I was fortunate enough to not be around during those agonizing (from what I have read) years immediately after Coach's retirement. All this time, from various articles and books I have read over the years, I was led to believe that apparently after Coach Wooden left his immediate successors weren't able to survive at UCLA because of the ungodly pressure they faced from our alums and fans. And that legend was further hyped during the dark years of Coach Howland's predecessor who constantly bashed UCLA alums and fans (using the phrase "pathology of UCLA basketball") saying how pressure and expectation from us will never allow a head coach to survive and prosper in Westwood.
But after five (in my book which already has been glorious) years of Coach Howland in Westwood to me it's now more than apparent who are the real enemies of UCLA basketball.
Now we know.
From the OC Register's "preview" by Robert Kuwada (emphasis added):
Did Ben Howland do any coaching in the second half of that Western Kentucky game or did the Bruins just not take to it? UCLA allowed an incredible 58 points over the final 20 minutes, which is what they were allowing per game coming in. Worse, the Bruins failed to handle the Hilltoppers' pressure after working against it all week. When they did, they were jacking up poor shots. Somewhere in there, Howland has to get his team settled. If the Hilltoppers had come out in the first half and played more aggressively, UCLA might be sitting at home right now. Edge: Even
OUTCOME: Xavier 77, UCLA 72
The Bruins should win this game, but they again are playing a team that will not shy away from them, as No. 16 seed Mississippi Valley State did in the first round and No. 12 Western Kentucky did in the first half in the regional semifinal. The Musketeers, No. 3 in the West, will compete from the start and have the fortitude to weather some rough spots, as they did in taking down West Virginia to advance to the Elite Eight. If UCLA again is reduced to Love and in need of luck from elsewhere, it will not make a third consecutive Final Four.
Top-seeded UCLA needs to defeat No. 3 seed Xavier in today's West Regional final of the NCAA Tournament at US Airways Center ....
It was a day for Bruins Coach Ben Howland to admit that if he'd had another guard, Russell Westbrook wouldn't have been given the opportunity to miss 12 shots Thursday night, and for freshman center Kevin Love to not be bashful and say that he was disappointed in the way junior point guard Darren Collison put himself on the bench with five fouls.
And Pucin of course wasn't alone. She was outdone by Plaschke attacking the "elitist attitude" of our basketball program (emphasis added):
I believe if the Bruins don't find their heads and remember their history, they will lose.
I believe if they don't match their talent with previous teams' hearts, they will have lost by the time some of you have finished reading this.
If the Bruins remain unfocused and unfazed in today's regional final, Xavier will bully them, baffle them and beat them.
Based on their overall play in their two previous tournament games -- the opener against high-school-equivalent Mississippi Valley State doesn't count -- the Bruins have been the worst No. 1-seeded team in the tournament.
Based on their inconsistent effort, they are the worst of the last three Ben Howland tournament teams.
If today doesn't make it clear who the enemies of our program are, I am not sure what will. We knew majority of the analysts and pundits in WWL and national MSM are worthless. The fans of opposing teams are always going to hold on to the generational Bruin hate stemming from the Wooden years, which will only intensify as Coach Howland continues to rebuild the empire in Westwood. But now today is pretty much making it clear how the local MSM will go out of their way to pounce and do everything they can to marginalize and pressure our program. Pretty clear in my book who are the enemies of UCLA basketball.
Anyway if you are looking to read up on Xavier, since none of today's MSM reports provide anything substantive on Xavier read our notes on Xavier here and here, and also check out Bruin Basketball Report's game preview here.
Now more than ever we need to rally behind our program, our players, and our head coach. They should know they will never be alone. They will have thousands of us - alums, students, and fans - people with actual connections to the greatest university in America rooting for them, supporting them, giving them everything we have emotionally every step of the way.
It certainly looks like motivation will not be an issue for our Ben Ball warriors. They should feel no pressure from a single alum, student or fan from BN. No matter what happens we are going to stick with them. No matter what happens we are proud of the season they have put together so far. But now more than ever I want us to get it done today so we can shut these clowns up.
The game thread will come up later today.
GO BRUINS.
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48 comments
Comments
And if we were a 2 seed, we'd be heroes
by doublebonus on Mar 29, 2008 9:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
To be so dismissive
These guys will push any anti UCLA narrative every chance they get. If this was UNC or KU ... their local MSM would be writing about how their kids remain resilient through all the on court adversity.
Los Angeles has the worst collection of lazy and stupid beat reporters in the country. And that is saying something considering reporters in general strike me as not exactly the sharpest kids in class.
by Nestor on Mar 29, 2008 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they did UCLA a favor.
by Chandler on Mar 30, 2008 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nestor, that's bulletin board material...
by waters96 on Mar 29, 2008 9:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Since when did we become the "new Duke?"
Let's hope all this cr*p fires our Ben Ball Warriors up!
by HoozierDaddy on Mar 29, 2008 9:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Plaschke
Wow. I hope our Bruins beat Xavier by twenty just to shut Dohn, Plaschke, and the rest of our clueless "journalists" up.
by BruinFanBaby on Mar 29, 2008 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't shut them up...
I think critiquing the Bruins' play is fine, but a number of the stories seem to have crossed the line between analysis and antipathy. Plashke's quote above completely ignores the performance of this year's team. UCLA hasn't been quick? UCLA hasn't been physical? UCLA hasn't been smart? Tell that to their opponents this season.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters will be what happens on the court starting at 3:40 this afternoon, and I look forward to cheering, stressing, jumping with joy, screaming with frustration and finally, celebrating another Bruin victory.
by McNown to Farmer on Mar 29, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're right, it wouldn't shut them up...
...what these journalists don't realize is that this is the tourney, and if u play like shit, you get knocked out...that's why there are only 8. And honestly, the sign of a true championship team is one that can play like shit and still win. Even though we were close, even though we fouled out key players, even though calls didn't go our way, even when we play a bit bad, we still won...the real fear out there should be, what's gonna happen when ucla doesn't play bad, we're still gonna win
by uCla on Mar 29, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence N's use of the adjective "lazy"
That's the theme of the So Cal sports writers in a nutshell. Look no further than their coverage of Southern Cal football.
Remember, these are the same folks that got scooped by a national media outlet on the Reggie Bush scandal. You'd think they's see that smoke and start digging. Nahh--just more fluff about how Pete Carroll plays by the rules.
by Ajax on Mar 29, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hate these people
Or the OCR asking if Howland made adjustments in the second half. Dumb ass, Shipp, Collision, and Westbrook all had 4 fouls before the second half was even halfway through.
What will suck is when we win they will change their tune and take credit, saying their negativity is what woke the bruins up.
by silverlakebruin on Mar 29, 2008 9:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said, Nestor
Which is clearly ridiculous to any informed, disinterested observer. XU is a very good squad - balanced, well coached and talented. But UCLA has still more overall talent, a coach who has proven himself in the crucible of the late tournament rounds, a semi-home court advantage in Phoenix and, in Kevin Love, the one truly transcendent player on the floor. Nothing is assured, of course, and Xavier is perfectly capable of pulling the upset, but the notion that UCLA should fear this team or apologize for how it got here is absurd.
So I say: Go Bruins, and go Bruin Nation. Here's to rallying in the face of the media offensive and putting to rest any doubts about this special team.
by Dexter Fishmore on Mar 29, 2008 9:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kuwada is a Moron
by Koach Karl I on Mar 29, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice work Kuwada
With analysis like that, Kuwada will be working at the NY Times any day now. You know, or not.
by Koach Karl I on Mar 29, 2008 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With commentary and write-ups
by FUSC on Mar 29, 2008 10:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I doubt CBH reads all this bs
I truly believe CBH has the ability to, and will, motivate, inspire and coach this team through any adversity in a march to San Antonio. Should he be stopped short in his ultimate quest, he will praise the team for a very good season, and will promptly set his sights on next seasons march. These are good times. Reading the sewage produced elsewhere does nothing but stress the walls of your arteries, because we know it is not true. I have resolved to read only the positive from BN where I can band together with my second family to enjoy these great days. It is absolutely a treat to be watching the Bruins playing on these last weekends of the season.
by popopapa on Mar 29, 2008 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's Plashke's take on UCLA in a nutshell
"After all we've been through in the last few years, we believe we can overcome anything," he said confidently. "No matter what happens, we think we can never lose."
He paused. He looked up.
"Don't you?"
No.
by FUSC on Mar 29, 2008 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't care
I don't care what Dickie V or Digger or Knight say. (In fact, I especially don't care what those three say.) I won't hear what they or any announcers say tonight.
Those guys are truly irrelevant in the world of college basketball. How many assists did any of the smart people get? Zero. How many time-outs did they call to settle a team down or set a defense? None. They are irrelevant.
The only really relevant guys are the players and the coaches. (I hope the refs are irrelevant, although they might not be.)
But these parasites who feed at the press box trough and then vomit onto their keyboards or into their microphones? I just don't care what they think or what they say. I think no less of the team for what they say, and their superb analyses truly show there are no Bruin grads in the group.
by Fox 71 on Mar 29, 2008 10:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The fact of the matter is
They're winning.
If our Ben Ball warriors were as unresilient and inconsistent as MSM makes us to be, why are we in the Elite 8?
They focus on the our "inconsistency" of stellar play through the entire 40 minutes. The "inconsistency" of offensive scoring from all players. But they refuse to focus on the most important consistency.
They're winning.
by lolwtferic on Mar 29, 2008 10:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I will respectfully disagree...
Winning is not all that counts. HOW we win is important.
This does not mean our wins would somehow be "better" if we blew every team out by 25-30 points.
As Coach himself has taught, success is not about winning, but about being the best you can be.
Have we played our absolute best ball of the year the past 2 games? In some glorious stretches of the game, OH YES.
Have we played our absolute worst ball of the year the past 2 games? In the 2nd half of the WKy game, YES.
What does this mean? It means that we
We HAVE lost focus in stretches of both games.
I believe in this team.
I have faith in this team.
I am grateful for all they have done this year through injury, changing roles, tough competition, and media scrutiny...
And I know their "job" is NOT DONE YET.
If we start thinking that winning is all that matters, then we become like the Trojans.
But, if we truly value playing the right way...
...with consistent effort...
...with confidence instead of cockiness...
...with honor instead of arrogance...
...with poise and patience over the need for praise and publicity...
...with speed, skill, strength and stamina, without settling on temporary leads...
THEN WIN OR LOSE, we will have done well.
What I want is this team to play in a fashion that will render them invulnerable to regret. Knowing they gave their very best in the games that count.
That is what I pray for every game. Not even for them to win, but for them to play to the best of their ability, health and experience.
Without regret.
M
by Meriones on Mar 29, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely right
Referring to MSM, I made that statement about winning to silence critics. To be able to play a nearly disastrous second have and still pull out a gutsy win says a lot of our Ben Ball Warriors. I am pointing out winning to counteract all the arguments MSM throws at us. We were vulnerable after the A&M game. What did we do? Come out and win. They say we're vulnerable after the WKU game, so what do we need to do? Come out and win. Absolutely winning is not everything, but to the eyes of the world and antiBruins, it is.
But you hit the nail on the head, win or lose the Bruins have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Here at BN, we will support them and continue to do so regardless of what happens. But to shut up the haters, winning is the key.
by lolwtferic on Mar 29, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our players know what they need to do ...
by belle411 on Mar 29, 2008 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone else noticed...
by SmrtGuy82 on Mar 29, 2008 10:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Point
by charnaw on Mar 29, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Whitlock
The Jayhawks are a very tough, balanced team that is playing their best ball right now, and he's right--they haven't really been tested in this tournament. (They had trouble with aTm in the Big-12 tourney.)
by Bruingirl83 on Mar 29, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As maybe the only working reporter here
It doesn't make sense to me to criticize Dohn for being a Rutgers grad (why would that make him pro- or anti-UCLA? I've never heard of any big Bruins-Scarlet Knights rivalry); just as it doesn't make sense for the LA Times and OC Register to be obviously so in love with USC's football program. (It was like everyone on the Reg sports staff wanted to marry Leinart.)
I disagree with Plaschke that this Bruins team is elitist. I think it's fair to say that they lost some focus after building a big lead against WKU and had to rally back near the end.
Without Keefe's outstanding game, the team may not have won Thursday, but does anyone really expect Collison to have another bad game?
I'm looking forward to a good game against a solid team. If Xavier is as good as they say (I haven't had a chance to see them), UCLA will have no reason to lose focus and should win.
by FreewayBruin03 on Mar 29, 2008 10:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the point isn't that they should be boosters
If you are covering a team that is 34-3, to focus on negatives is not good reporting. When things are going well, the majority of your articles should be positive.
How can the media look at this team the past three years with its accomplishments and have mostly negative things to say? It is totally out of touch with reality.
by silverlakebruin on Mar 29, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
And given the way these papers have served as effective lapdogs for Southern Cal's athletic programs, IMHO it is reasonable to expect some balance.
The vitriol and antipathy that has been directed towards our program from the local papers have been beyond ridiculous. It's disgusting and inexcusable.
by Nestor on Mar 29, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can respect that
The only way to reverse that is for Neuheisel, Walker, Chow and the team to make some improvements over the KD years, and I'm sure we'll see some success.
As far as today's game goes, I think the Bruins' experience should count for something, so if people want to gripe about the naysaying, that's fine with me.
As an aside, I think the real value of blogs is they act as kind of readers' audit of what goes in the paper. As a writer, I look at them as a valuable tool to find out what readers think about coverage.
That said, let's beat Xavier.
by FreewayBruin03 on Mar 29, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Victim of Heightened Expectations
Sure enough, the team did not play hard in the 2nd half Thursday night -- until they had to. However, even as the game was slipping away, even as the team was experiencing things it had not experienced before this season -- an opponent proficient in the full court press, JS/RW/DC in foul trouble -- they found a way to gather themselves and win. They found a way to win. The mark of a true champion.
But those with the unrealisitc expectations -- bandwagoners,for instance -- look at the other #1 seeds and want a blow out. They want domination. They want victories without any strings. (If any of the other #1 seeds don't make it to San Antonio, what good will those blow-out wins do for them?) And it is the bandwagoners that are buying local papers in droves to feed their hunger for more information about their newest and latest sports crushes. Remember this. Plaschke and his ilk are in the business of selling papers. They work for an industry that is being slowly driven to extinction by the Internet. They are trying to survive and their editors are not interested in boring, well-researched analysis. They want pizzazz, no matter how inaccurate or inarticulate the piece may be.
No one locally is writing about the effect of a brutal Pac-10 schedule. Where would TAM and WKU finished in our conference? The Bruins have been playing better teams all year long and I feel they have suffered a mental let down as they entered the tourney. You mean to tell me Howland wasn't warning them about letting down at halftime on Thursday? The team, however, failed to heed his warning --possibly due to mental fatigue -- and almost paid the price. But they won.
Today, I expect the Bruins to be well-prepared and to play hard for 40 minutes and to win. The margin of victory is irrelevant. My mantra this year has been: As long as they keep it close, they'll find a way to win.
by 78Bruin on Mar 29, 2008 11:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It is not the critic who counts,
-Theodore Roosevelt
by bruinbunz on Mar 29, 2008 11:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We have no
Thank God this place exists, thank you Nestor. I really CBH hope uses this or something like it to get the boys fired up, because the treatment we get from "our own writers" and local media, as well as national media is just becoming embarrassing.
Regardless of what happens throughout out the rest of the tournament, no one can tell us we don't have heart. We all saw the cal game, we all watched DC with ice in his veins, drilling free throws to put us in overtime against stanford. We all watched us battle Arizona in tucson, and overcome a deficit against oregon at home. We all saw DC and KL hit some of the biggest shots of their careers against aTm, and battle a hilltopper team without our point gaurd at the end. And we witnessed the pit crew berate Kevin and his family inhumanely in his return home, and then Kevin dominate the game.
No one will ever convince me this team doesn't have heart.
by Ollie on Mar 29, 2008 11:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the biggest ally we have (if barely)
by lolwtferic on Mar 29, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also..
by SmrtGuy82 on Mar 29, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forget the media, forget the opponent
Look at what the media is saying: the Bruins failed to live up to expectations. They have been saying this as we won the PAC 10 by 3 games, the PAC 10 conference and 3 tourney games so far. What does that really say about the media: they know we can be SOOOO GOOD if we are playing our game.
We did not in the 2nd half against WKU. We did not in the first half against Ta&m. True enough.
But the real point is we know how to win even when we are not playing our best. And our best is the best. Let's hope we see it in the next 3 games!
by bruins grad and dad on Mar 29, 2008 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
STUPID
Don't buy these guys' papers. Don't read their columns and what ever you do, DON'T MISTAKE A JC-DROPOUT'S COLUMN FOR INFORMED OPINION.
It's alright to suck up to b.s., below par, soon-to-be on probation private school programs and anyone from North Carolina, but to give Howland and the Sons of Westwood their due just doesn't sell papers.
Which is why all these publications are on the endangered species list.
We are going to DISMANTLE Xavier.
by theREAL_LOGAN5 on Mar 29, 2008 11:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
sometimes
by nycbruin on Mar 29, 2008 12:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not Mentioned
by zhivooden on Mar 29, 2008 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
BOTTOM LINE......
Smoke on that haters!
by bruinelder on Mar 29, 2008 12:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jason King - Yahoo Sports - with a nice piece
Gabou said the moment is one he'll always remember.
"I don't know much about Kevin Love," he said, "but I thought that was a pretty nice gesture."
Really, folks. This is the most despised team in America? This is the team that everyone suddenly loves to loathe?
Honestly, why all the hate for UCLA?
King also touches upon a theme that is familiar to many here, but virtually ignored by the MSM; regardless of what one thinks of the controversial calls of recent games, the team put itself in a position to win those games.
There were Collison's clutch free throws against Stanford and the tear-drop layup he made off the glass to beat Texas A&M. Shipp's behind-the-backboard shot against Cal never would've mattered if not for the double-clutch three-pointer Love swished seconds earlier.
"You can call it luck if you want," Westbrook said. "But I think it's toughness. If we weren't tough we'd be out of the tournament. But we fight down to the wire and get tough in tight situations."
by bruinhoo on Mar 29, 2008 1:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just watched
by BruinFanBaby on Mar 29, 2008 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So-called pressure..
To be sure (and of us who were around concur), the most profound effect was on the thin-skinned Gene Bartow. We may have behaved to some degree like spoiled fans and not appreciative of the teams he fielded who were (1) loaded with talent left over from the Wooden era (Marques Johnson was one such player), (2) manned with good recruited players (i.e., Brad Hollins, David Greenwood and Roy Hamilton), and (3) ran offenses that looked like statue gardens with a modicum of "D" to match.
As commented on before, perhaps we as fans were spoiled but there was a fine line between expecting a banner and expecting the players to play well as a team. Gene just couldn't manage that so he let the pressure get to him.
In all honesty, few ordinary coaches could have tolerated the pressure. But to say that they all had that monkey on their back is ludicrous. Immediately after Bartow left for UAB, Larry Brown came in and put together a team whom SI proclaimed as moribund after a few losses in the December pre-conference season. The infamous "Bruins in Ruins" SI cover and article, as I said before, dripped with the same East-coast bias/Bruin hatred from those who feared the rise of another dynasty and further-crowded rafters in Westwood. Larry produced a team that played over their heads, achieving the same performance we have come to know and love here.
Oh, and by the way, many of us count that team among the best at UCLA despite their having "let us down" (sarcasm) by not winning the banner against L'ville in the final game. (Bad call against Kiki in the last few minutes.)
The ensuing coaches were just good guys who allowed the vision of all the draperies in the rafters drive them out; perhaps it is easy to cut them some slack in that regard.
But, fer chrissakes, Lavin is a runny stool sample if he thinks he was a victim of some "pathology". The only pathology in his life is the Bardahl he uses in his hair.
Give it a rest, will ya (Lavin). We out here are just looking for decent guys to be recruited, play as a team, and exceed their abilities separately and collectively. If you can't do it, then go away and shut "TF" up!
..besides, don't you remember a few articles on how Lavin was all moist over the little tête-à-têtes he was having with "Coach".
The rest of the brain-dead media and Ward Bonds can suck rocks.
We man NOT get past the "X" tonight (doubt it), we may not win the banner this year (believe we will) but we'll be back..
..year after year after year..
So, deal with it!
by whp68 on Mar 29, 2008 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Heart
by teis areteis on Mar 29, 2008 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The best part of the Plaschke article...
So far in the tournament they've trailed most of the game against 14 seed Georgia before winning, beaten 6 seed Purdue by seven, and needed overtime to beat 7 seed West Virginia. UCLA, meanwhile, gave up 29 points to MVSU, beat 9 seed Texas A&M by two, and managed to hold off 12 seed Western Kentucky even with all three guards in terrible foul trouble. At worst, there's not much difference.
The focus of his article was how UCLA responded to a 21-point halftime lead in the Sweet Sixteen. But if UCLA's biggest is how it responds to big halftime leads, that's not much of a problem at all.
by SuperBruinMan on Mar 29, 2008 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Perspective
It is just an incessant, nearly 100% predictable, negativity-mongering, reality-TV fueled, there's-too-damned-many-sports-"experts"-out-there load of crap.
I like to think about the way the Delta Devils showed such spirit and sportsmanship, how classy the Aggies were--they're the ones whose opinions about our team really matter, anyway.
by Bruingirl83 on Mar 29, 2008 3:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sportswriters Need Something...
That is the bottom-line. Often times, sportswriters will pander to the lowest-common-denominator, never once considering the effects such comments and intrigue will have on the scholar-athletes of our team. This is the way the media is in general and the way it has always been.
But aren't these douche-bags supposed to be OUR sportswriters? I mean, they cover the Bruin beat right? (I don't know about Doh!n because he writes for the Daily News, a RAG that is not fit to line a bird cage with.) Given that these people are supposed to temper their "objectivity" with more of a pro-Bruin slant, don't you think it is funny that they are consistently against the Bruins?
The solution? STOP BUYING WHAT THEY PRODUCE! Stop visiting there sites. They'll get the message soon enough.
by Bruins100NCAA on Mar 29, 2008 3:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sportswriters and the tree falling in the forest
I don't care what those guys say or do. They are, in the most powerful sense, totally irrelevant.
I have long since voted with my subscription dollar and my volume-turning fingers.
by Fox 71 on Mar 29, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Screw Plashke
After the game? They're called out for the lack of a blowout margin.
Plashke should get off his ass and go shoot a few out there if he thinks it's so damned easy.
Jerks. I'll be proud even if we lose today. Our guys have earned it.
by bruinchick on Mar 29, 2008 3:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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