Re. Sidney/Stephenson "Package Deal" for UCLA

by Nestor on Apr 21, 2008 4:05 AM PDT in Recruiting Comment 31 comments

Last week there was a lot of commotion in a number of Bruin message boards stemming from "package deal" story posted on Bruin Report Online, involving the #2-ranked player in the class of 2009, post player Renardo Sidney, and the #3-ranked player in the nation, 6-5 small forward Lance Stephenson.

Underbruin flagged the story in our diary section here providing some extra tidbits re. Lance Stephenson. Jeff Eisenberg from the Press Enterprise blogged about all the commotion around these two recruits as well:

With all the Internet speculation that New York city phenom Lance Stephenson and Los Angeles Fairfax center Renardo Sidney might be contemplating attending the same college, I called Stephenson's high school coach and asked him to address the topic.
Dwayne Morton, coach at famed Lincoln High in Brooklyn, confirmed that Stephenson and Sidney are good friends from the AAU circuit but cautioned that a package deal with the two of them is still a long shot.
"It has to be the right situation for Lance," Morton said. "He's not just going to go somewhere because of Renardo."
Luring both Stephenson and Sidney would be an incredible coup for any school as both are considered among the best players nationally in the class of 2009. Sidney attended a handful of UCLA games this season and told me in January he wants to remain in California for college, but the Bruins weren't thought to be contenders for Stephenson until the 6-foot-5 junior unexpectedly visited the UCLA campus this past weekend while he was in town to play on Sidney's club team in a tournament.

I have been tracking Sidney for a while through both the stories in the MSM and the subscription based recruiting networks. Lot of UCLA fans expressed their "concern" (to put it mildly) about Coach Howland and his staff being interested in recruiting these two kids. So I decided to dig into their stories a little more. And after reading up I still have not been able to reach a definitive opinion on whether I should be excited about seeing these two in a UCLA uniform or be adamantly against it. Let me walk you through what I have read and flagged so far via the Google. After the run down I would love to hear everyone's level headed thoughts (not rants) and also other data points re. these two kids we might be interested in reading.

As for rankings go these two are goldmine. Sidney and Stephenson respectively are the number 2 and 3 ranked recruits in the entire country per Scout.com. Sidney is the number 1 center in the country while Stephenson is the number 1 SF.

Sidney who Luke Winn of SI.com called out as "the Future King" in an article dated August 30, 2007, is an athletic freak. Here is what Luke had to say about Sidney in the aforementioned article (which also sets off some red flags):

Intrigue surrounds Sidney because he's a big man with stunning, guard-like skills; he's susceptible to lapses in effort but also more versatile than the NBA player to whom some recruitniks have him compared, Chris Webber. Of Sidney's potential, Vaccaro says, "Should he be the No. 1 pick [in 2010]? Physically it would be without question. The key is what happens, mentally and with everything else over the next two to three years."

When he's forced to pick a college in 2009, Sidney says it'll likely be between Oden's Buckeyes ("I like how they play," he says), Texas, Florida, USC, UCLA, Kentucky, UAB and Alabama. Mark Gottfried of the Tide has the distinction of being the coach who sent Sidney his first recruiting letter ... when he was in seventh grade. Columnists and coaches alike often bemoan the excessive attention heaped on teen phenoms, deeming it both premature and potentially damaging, but the Sidney camp is well aware of the value of this exposure. There were two reasons that Renardo Sr. moved his family from Jackson, Miss., to Lakewood, Calif., in '06: Better basketball, and "the same thing O.J. [Mayo] said [about USC] -- more marketing." "Mississippi is a small pond," says Renardo Sr. "I love it as my home, but you have to go to a bigger market to get [Renardo's] name out."

Sitting in the Sheraton late on the evening of Aug. 22, after a flight from L.A., the Sidneys displayed signs of their California conversion: Dad wore sunglasses in a dark restaurant, as well as two jewel-encrusted prep state title rings that had recently been won by Renardo and his older brother, who's now at Santa Monica College. Son wore a Bluetooth clip on his right ear, occasionally tapped away at his Sidekick, and spoke happily about "all the pretty girls" he sees in L.A.

Yet their roots had not entirely departed them; Mississippi remained in their accents, they professed a love for fishing and when they placed dinner orders, they both requested to customize the menu's pasta dish by adding shrimp. The term journeyman, in basketball, is generally reserved for wandering pros, but Sidney's path makes him a new-age hoops traveler: In his brief prep career he's been at a different school each fall and a different AAU team each summer.

Following his debut at ABCD in '05, Sidney enrolled as a freshman at The Piney Woods School in Piney Woods, Miss., but the state ruled him ineligible to play basketball because his family's home, in Jackson, was more than 20 miles from the school's campus. A story in the Washington Post in the summer of '06, after the Sidneys had moved to L.A. and joined the loaded Southern California All-Stars AAU team, speculated that Renardo might be the first American star to skip high-school ball altogether and merely play during the summers.

It was a headline-worthy scenario, but did not turn out to be the case: Sidney joined the team at Lakewood's Artesia High as a sophomore and helped lead it to a Division III state title. The summer of '07 also brought about a change in AAU squads. Renardo began playing for the LA Dream Team, which happens to be coached by Renardo Sr., and spent much of an 0-4 run in the Reebok Summer Championships trying to expand his repertoire by shooting threes -- with limited success -- rather than playing in the paint. Renardo Sr. says the departure from the S.C. All-Stars was simply because, "I wanted him to have his own team. I wanted him to call his own shots, and learn how to make everyone around him better. I'm trying to get him ready for D-I."

The Washington Post story Luke referenced in his article was written by Eric Prisbell, which provided shall say rather colorful details on what some of the California high schools were doing to "recruit" Sidney out or Mississippi:

More than 10 high schools have expressed interest in Sidney, his father said. Sidney ruled out some because, he said, players on their teams told him they don't always have to do their own work to get grades.

But the Sidney family listened to one recruitment pitch, even though it began surreptitiously. Two men showed up in Mississippi, telling Sidney they were reporters with a new magazine in California and that he was the subject of their cover story.

His mother immediately called Vaccaro; the elder Sidney met the men for lunch. Vaccaro said he believes the two men were trying to persuade Sidney to transfer to Compton's Dominguez High, which is sponsored by Nike.

"It was scary," the elder Sidney said. "That was definitely a Hollywood act. They told me two names, but I don't know if that is their real name. They could have been posing for an agent. . . . So you just never know."

Sidney said he and his family later visited California and the men gave them tickets on the floor for a Los Angeles Lakers-Minnesota Timberwolves game.

"They took us to the Lakers game; we went out to eat every day," Sidney said. "We hung out, late nights and stuff. We had fun. They showed us a good time. They wanted me to come out here just to visit Dominguez and see if I would like it or whether I'd go to it. We stopped messing with them. I never thought about [Dominguez]. It was in the ghetto."

Their recruitment pitch included a phone call that the men said was from Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant. When Sidney got on the phone, the man purported to be Bryant and told him he should stay humble and work hard. To this day, Sidney doesn't know who he spoke to. Bryant could not be reached to comment.

Well Sidney didn't end up in Dominguez. As Luke mentioned he ended up in Artesia (which I believe was the same high school attended by the O'Bannons and Kapono - someone please correct me if I am off here) for 06-07 season. Sidney led Artesia to state Divison III championship, but then he transferred to LA's Fairfax High School. This is where it gets interesting. Here is an article by Eric Sondheimer in the LA Times from this past November, which gave some clues on why Sidney decided to transfer to Fairfax:

Sidney is considered the No. 1 center prospect in the nation for the class of 2009, but the challenge for Kitani is to get him to play hard and play consistently.

Perhaps that's why in Sidney's first appearance in a Fairfax basketball class the second week of October, after taking a month off because of a knee problem, he faced an immediate challenge from Kitani, who made it clear what he expected.

"I was breathing hard and getting frustrated," Sidney said of the practice.

That didn't prevent Kitani from getting his point across, stressing fundamentals. "Coach Kitani is a hard coach," Sidney said.

From what I have heard re. Coach Kitani he is indeed a very demanding coach to play for, who emphasizes playing hard and team discipline. Already Kitani has sent Shipp and Stanbeck to our program. So its pretty safe to assume Coach Howland and his staff have strong connections to Kitani's program and can count on getting frank feedback on his players. I didn't follow Sidney's season at Fairfax but the team ended up losing to City Finals this year to Taft, which was led by UNC bound Larry Drew. I think it will be telling if he comes back to play at Fairfax next season.

If Sidney decides to come back to Fairfax for his senior season it wll be a good sign in my book in that he was all right with playing for a coach who has a reputation for demanding Howlandeque discipline and commitment at the prep level.

Who knows ... perhaps Kitani was the perfect coach Sidney was looking for in terms of getting him to play hard and at least make an effort on the defensive front. Because reading stories such as the one written by Stephen Danley from the New York Times (dated August 16, 2007 - before he got to Fairfax), he sounded like a kid who was bored and wasting away his talent in the overhyped AAU environment:

Was Sidney simply a young man still learning how to push himself to play hard, or was he building bad habits as a result of the summer basketball culture?

Sometimes a player's greatest strength can be his undoing. When I attended ABCD camp as a player in 2001, Lenny Cooke was the recipient of the hype machine's attention. But his penchant for scoring ratcheted up the pressure. As camp went on, he dominated possession of the ball, taking most of his team's shots as the offense stagnated. Cooke had to score so many points to keep up with his reputation that it was actually hurting his game.

The next year, Sebastian Telfair fell into the same trap. His ability to make spectacular plays in the lane led to unrealistic expectations. In 2001, the great plays had come to him. His halfcourt alley-oop to Travis Outlaw is still the most incredible play I have seen in person. But the hype in 2002, when he was entering his junior season, was too much. He began forcing shots. In an effort to be spectacular, he made hard passes when easy ones were available. In short, Telfair's reputation had overcome his ability.

Is it possible that the same thing is already happening to Sidney? That his unique abilities, those that make him the equivalent of a guard on the floor, are holding him back? It is hard not to look at him backpedaling to halfcourt and wonder if the hype will be too much.

Speaking with him, one can sense his frustration. He talked about how he got "no boards" and did not block any shots. He insisted that he wanted to lose weight and to get back to playing the way he did in the eighth grade.

Imagine that, striving to be 13 again.

So what to make of Sidney?

Well when I read the stories from the Post and SI.com the two names immediately popped up in my heard were: Jaron Rush and Myron Piggie.

You can click on the link to read that Andy Katz story from the nightmarish Lavin years. UCLA suspended JaRon Rush in his sophomore season (99-00) when allegations surfaced that Rush might have taken money from agent (through his involvement with his former AAU coach Myron Piggie) putting his status as an amateur athlete before coming to UCLA. Thankfully IIRC after UCLA did the prudent thing by immediately suspending Rush. Rush ended up being suspended for 24 games and was eventually reinstated by the NCAA. UCLA didn't have to suffer any sanctions because IIRC it took all the right steps to handle the issue. In any event, after his sophomore season, Rush decided to prematurely turn pro and we never heard back from him since then.

Is the Rush and Sidney situation similar? Well who knows? From the stories I read above there are certainly red flags. If he is interested in UCLA he would have to absolutely convince Coach Howland and his staff (and the UCLA compliance department) that he is an amateur and nothing from his background will come back to haunt the university. Obviously there are the grade issues. If they don't work out, the whole recruiting process would be a non starter. But I imagine if Howland is seriously considering Sidney, he is also making sure there is a strong vetting process in place that will look into every single aspect of Sidney's background. There is one major difference between Rush and Sidney situation. Unlike Rush if Sidney were to come to UCLA he will get adult supervision under Coach Howland (Rush was left stranded under the immature idiot - Steve Lavin).

Not to mention if Sidney wants to play for Coach Howland, he will have to play within Coach Howland's system. This is a Coach who had no problem benching a kid like Love because he couldn't play defense. I would think Sidney would understand he is not going to get his mins by lollygagging around on the court, which bears the name on John and Nell Wooden.

BTW according to Scout.com database he doesn't have any offers yet. However, he has already taken trips to Texas and to Arizona State. And from what I have heard it could be a matter of time before he gets an offer from Texas (Barnes might be waiting to see what happens with him and UCLA).

Anyway, let's get to the other kid making up the blockbuster package. Again a number of folks in the message boards sounded off their alarm bells hearing Stephenson's name. So I looked around and flagged this article about Stepehenson serving a 5 day suspension for "horsing around. From the New York Daily News:

Defending PSAL champion Lincoln hosted Jefferson on Thursday evening in Coney Island, but the Railsplitters' standout swingman Lance Stephenson wasn't on the court. Instead, the highly recruited junior was in plain clothes, sitting in the stands, under temporary banishment.

After Stephenson got into an altercation with teammate Devon McMillan at the school on Wednesday - during which a piece of glass was shattered and cut both students - Lincoln principal Ari Hoogenboom slapped the Railsplitters' star guard with a five-day school suspension.

The suspension means that Stephenson will miss at least one more league game, when the Railsplitters visit South Shore on Tuesday.

Lincoln didn't miss Stephenson much on the court on Thursday, as it routed a talented Jefferson squad, 76-52, to improve to 8-0. (Justin Greene led Lincoln with 24 points). Still, Stephenson knows he screwed up.

"I'm really disappointed in myself," Stephenson said after the game. "I'm not happy this happened, but it was a good lesson that it happened. Now I know not to do it again. College coaches think I'm a hothead now. I'm really disappointed about that."

Stephenson said he and McMillan were "pushing" each other and "horseplaying" around in what he described as an "extra room" at the school, when the glass shattered.

"It splattered everywhere," said Stephenson of the glass. "It cut my eye and his fingers. If the glass never broke, I would still be playing basketball."

And according to some accounts the kid is a bit of a partier.

But before you all get too worried check out this report from Slam Online in its "Adidas Nations" recap on a camp held near Seton Hall University featuring 15 of the top players each from the 2009 and 2010 classes, respectively:

Kalish [Daren Kalish, Adidas Sports Marketing Manager of College/Grassroots Basketball, BN Ed.] also squashed misgivings anyone might've had about adding an Alpha-Dog like a Lance Stephenson to a camp that is about promoting teamwork, selflessness, and not singling out one star over the others. Stephenson wasn't able to participate this weekend due to his Lincoln High competing in the New York State playoffs but he had more than one staunch supporter who was willing to speak on his behalf.

"It's funny because he's adapted to this easily," said St. Patrick's star and UNC-bound Dexter Strickland. "We room together and play in the same backcourt together but we've never had any friction like people thought we'd have, since we're both good scorers."

There you go. So much for the perception of this kid being a selfish player.

I have looked around. Except for the suspension story I have not been able to locate any other negative stories on Stepehenson. I have not also been able to find any other stories re. arrest, suspension, drug bust or academic troubles re. either Stepehenson or Sidney. If there are out there and I missed them, please link them or cite them (with key excerpts) in our commend threads (don't post "rumors" or "reports" from scouts without specific attribution).

So where does that live us re. Sidney and Stephenson? As I mentioned above I still haven't made up my mind. I can see the obvious concerns and red flags. At the same time I have total confidence in Coach Howland, who I believe will not take any action that will jeopardize the integrity of our basketball program.

And I obviously don't subscribe to absurd theory of not taking one and done kids. I understand that the system needs to be changed (and someone can take up the cause of mandatory 2 year rule for the NCAA). However, while the current system in place, Coach Howland has to play with the cards he has and do what he think is necessary to put together a team that will be a good mix of super star blue chippers and other talented athletes who might be in program for 3-4 years.

If these two young men are willing to commit themselves to play within the defensive based team foundation Coach Howland has established at UCLA, are qualified academically, and are cleared after a rigorous vetting process by the UCLA compliance officials, then I am not sure I have a lot of objections to them coming to UCLA. If Coach Wooden got a kid like Bill Walton (who from what I read wasn't exactly a cookie cutter Wooden player before he came into Westwood and had his share of shall we say colorful run-ins with the Coach) to buy into his system, Coach Howland could the do the same with kids like Sidney or Stephenson. No?

Still that said ... I understand why people have concerns. But I want folks who are concerned to express why they are worried here on BN based on reported facts re. these two kids rather than info they have gleaned from other boards.

I will just end with this note. Given Coach Howland's track record in the kind of kids he has brought into our program and the way they have conducted themselves on and off the court in my book he has earned my trust.

GO BRUINS.

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Comments

WRT the O'Bannons and Kapono

Yes they all attended Artesia High.
Concerning the potential recruits: while its fun and all to argue about whether or not UCLA should be pursuing these two, in the end it really doesn't matter what we think. Whatever Howland decides I personally will be behind it 100 percent. As Nestor has said before, he has earned the benefit of the doubt (3 Final 4's in 3 years, yes I think he's earned it). If they go onto to another university (and I use that term very loosely) and win a championship majoring in Leisure Management, I will not hold it against Howland for refusing to offer them scholarships. I like to root for good kids, which is why I was really really disappointed with our football team's decision to ditch practice.

by bruin8uclap on Apr 21, 2008 5:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Artesia High

That's correct. ASU's Harden was there last year too.

I'll trust in Coach Howland's decision but there certainly are some major red flags there. I won't blame Coach Howland if he doesn't go after these kids, and from what I understand, Stephenson is still a long shot.

It's quite simple really, but I think Howland will make the right decision. I doubt he'd want a player who might not listen to him or might not be coachable. He certainly wouldn't want a player who could bring violations that would topple what he's built from the ground up. Oh, and I agree with Nestor on one-and-dones: I don't like the system in place but I'll take any 1-and-done if they will help the Bruins and will succeed at UCLA.

by Raisin on Apr 21, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That "Package" is damaged goods

Sydney is a carpetbagger. He and his family are only interested in grooming him for the NBA. Stephenson is for sure a one and done player and may have problems staying academically eligible. I'd rather have kids like Aboya and the Prince.

by bruin75 on Apr 21, 2008 8:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Funny

I had lol at this:

He and his family are only interested in grooming him for the NBA

And I am sure Kevin Love only came to UCLA to sit in all those cool GE classes.

AA2 and Prince are great kids. But we also need some serious talent. If these kids clear academics and can make a commitment to Howland about playing a team game, and Howland wants them, I will have no problem with them coming in.

by bluestreet on Apr 21, 2008 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagree

Going to the NBA was just one of many concerns for Kevin Love and his family (even though it was perhaps high on his list of concerns). The Sydney clan seem to have the NBA very very high on their proverbial list, with any other perhaps more genuine factors taking a very very distant second. The current post on this topic has me convinced of this point even more.

by bruin8uclap on Apr 21, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uhm

Going to the NBA was the highest on the lost of Love family concerns. I am deeply appreciative of what Love did for UCLA this past season. But I am not naive enough to pretend that going to the NBA was not at the top of Love's priority list. Anyone who has followed Love for last 3-4 years pretty much knew Love was going to be a "one and done" athlete at UCLA.

I kept saying over and over to people who were in denial about Love wanting to come back for another season. Love and his Dad were all about the NBA. They were terrific at UCLA and were great for PR, but it was pretty much given that if not for the one year rule, they would have never come to Westwood. Just like the Sydney family NBA was on the top of Love's list.

So your attempt to distinguish the Loves and the Sydneys re. NBA aspirations just doesn't fly. It is a naive and frankly uninformed view of the recruiting scene from last few years.

by Nestor on Apr 21, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

RIght

I never said that getting to the NBA was not highest on the Love's list of concerns, but I disagree with you in how you are putting both of them in the same category of maniacal basketball fathers. For one, the manner that these 2 fathers are going about supporting their sons is totally different. Stan Love didn't form an AAU team around his son for the purpose of preparing his son for the next level or move his son to 3 high schools in 3 years. Based on his comments to the media Stan Love appeared to take more of a hands off "take life as it comes" approach concerning his son's participation at UCLA.
Take this excerpt as an example:
Stan Love's 57-year-old eyes were glassy. He waited for the din to subside.
It's tremendously emotional to watch your son play for a team like U.C.L.A., on a stage like this, in an arena like this," he said. "He's reaching his goals. He's attaining what he's always dreamed about."
Or take this quote from the same article:
"It's his life, it's his course, and he chose U.C.L.A. because of the coaching and the atmosphere and the chemistry on the team," Stan Love said. "And he absolutely loves it."
Of course, the cynic in all of us would say Stan Love's tears were brought about by visions of the millions his son would be making in the NBA as well as all of the new clothes he'd be able to afford, but I'd like to think that Dad was a bit overwhelmed by watching his son playing for the greatest University in the world (one that Stan Love himself desperately wanted to attend). So this is where I disagree with you concerning these two fathers. From everything I have read about Sidney Sr., I seriously doubt that a scene like the one above would ever occur.
I for one never expected Kevin Love to stay more than the required 1 year and I don't fault him at all for wanting to bolt for the NBA now (and believe that it would be silly for him not to go based on his projected take in the draft). Kevin Love only year at UCLA was a year where the true spirit amateur athletics was upheld in every way by he and his father.
Hence, I see Stan Love as more of a fervid supporter rather than a take the reigns of his son's career type of parent that I see in Sidney Sr. The Sidneys just seem more a bit more methodical and shall I say seedier than the Loves in how they are supporting their sons. When bruin75 writes that all Sidney's family is interested in is grooming his son for the NBA, it would appear that this is truly believe that this is all they are interested in. This is above the college experience, above school work, above the team, and above winning. I never saw anything in the media about Stan Love complaining about how Ben Howland benched his son in the important minutes of a game. It was his son's deal, he was just there to soak it in. Its easy to imagine, based on the things I have read, Renardo Sr. complaining about minutes. Afterall, how can his son be considered a high draft pick if the scouts can't see how he handles himself in the clutch?

Again, if Howland wants them, then I want them. I just think that Stan Love and Renardo Sr. are two very different kinds of people.

P.S. - Sorry about the lack of block quotes. I can't seem to find the tutorial on how to apply them. Sorry.

by bruin8uclap on Apr 21, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

K-Love vs. Sidney

I agree with the distinctions made by 8uclap. Stan Love wanted Kevin to experience everything about college and being at UCLA. Yes, the NBA was at the top of their priority list. However, if by some fluke or misfortune, K-Love did not perform well at the NBA tryouts and he dropped to near the bottom of the 1st round in draft projections, I think K-Love and family would not hesitate to return to UCLA for his Sophmore year. I believe that they were torn last weekend when they returned to Lake Oswego to decide on his future--only because Kevin had such a great time and valuable experience at UCLA. I don't think the Sidneys are approaching the college experience with the same attitude as the Loves. I can only base my opinion on Bruin history. Bill Walton was offered the opportunity to be drafted hardship by the Philadelphia 76ers after his junior year. Coach Wooden urged Bill to turn pro to help his family financially. Bill chose to stay at UCLA, graduate, play in the NBA and then get his law degree at Stanford. Yes, a UCLA degree is valuable even if you are already an NBA millionaire. If anyone might be worried about Sidney's father meddling too much with his son's career and how it might upset Coach Howland's universe, just remember Kenny Field. In 1980 Larry Brown's first year at UCLA the Bruins made it to the Nat'l championship against Louisville. The following year the team imploded although there were great expectations with the addition of highly touted freshman, Kenny Fields. Kenny expected to be the "go to" star and Kenny's father made life miserable for Larry Brown when that didn't happen. Could that happen under Coach Howland? I doubt it, but I'm just sayin'...

by bruin75 on Apr 21, 2008 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Spare me Stan Love's "tears"

Look I have already said I deeply appreciate what KL gave to UCLA in his only year in Westwood. It was a remarkable year.

But I am not going to let people get away with making naive distinctions between the Love's Dad and Sidney's in that case. The only difference between Papa Love and Papa Sidney here is optics. One had the luxury to bring up his son in a glitzy suburb in Portland at a glitzy high school, while the other came from a desperate/impoverished background in Mississippi. Yeah so Stan Love sounds polished and smooth and has a way of saying all the right things. Because he has gone through it. But the bottom line for Papa Love and Papa Sidney is still the same: sending their sons to the NBA, cash in, and use UCLA as a pit stop.

Does that mean I don't want these kids to come to UCLA? Of course note. I will take them if they are willing to come here, play by the rules, and play within Howland's system. But again to say somehow Stan Love is more preferable to Sydney's Dad because because of their commitment to "true spirit of amateur athletics" is just naive.

You may see them as "different kinds of people." The only difference I see here is their economic background which has led one to be more polished and nuanced than the other. At the heart of it for both of them it is still all about sending their sons to NBA and CA$HING in.

by Nestor on Apr 22, 2008 4:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, but

there is a difference in my opinion with regard to the influence and selfish goals of each father. I feel that if Kevin Love wanted to stay in school, his father would be fully supportive. I do not feel that way about the Sidney father. I feel more that he is using his son as a means to an end, as a product to be marketed. The end goal may be the same for both fathers, but the means to the end seem different, be it brought on by economic background or not.

by tasser10 on Apr 22, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No so sure tasser

I am not sure based on what I have heard whether Papa Love would be "supportive" of KL if he were to put his foot down and insist on returning for another season.

by Nestor on Apr 22, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't blame him either

You've probably heard more than I have...since I haven't heard anything! It was just a feeling I had. But considering that these kids are a bad injury away from losing out on millions, I really don't understand why people get all up in arms when they leave early. Actually I do understand...they're selfish.

by tasser10 on Apr 23, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Color me ambivalent

After seeing Love come and go, I just can't seem to get too excited about these 2 kids. If Howland wants them, fine. But for me personally, I'm more fired up about landing a kid like Reeves Nelson than I am about these two.

"You don't make it to the Final Four three straight times for no reason..Obviously coaching has something to do with it." Darren Collison

by godblesstyus95 on Apr 21, 2008 8:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Me too, I hate the one and done thing

Not dissing Love, who seems to be a great kid, but just the system that allows him to come and go like that. I am going to have a hard time getting excited about basketball if we have too many more "love 'em and leave 'em" scenarios.

I found myself depressed watching the Laker game yesterday; everytime someone grabbed a rebound, I was waiting for the awesome outlet pass and then it would dawn on me that I won't be seeing that from UCLA anymore.

I almost hope that Jrue Holliday is not quite as good as people say and needs a few years of "Howlandizing" before blossoming.

by Dodger Hater on Apr 21, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bad System

As a college basketball fan, I'm having a hard time with the mandatory year of college (in the form of an age restriction). I realize that before this system was in place there were still some one-and-done players, but it seemed they were the exception. I'd be much happier with either no age restriction, so that most of the one-and-done players continued to go straight to the pros without the college pit stop, or an increase in the age limit to two or three years.

by cabz on Apr 21, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Check out this article

It provides a good digest of Howland's accomplishments at UCLA in relation to the type of guys he has been able to recruit (written April 4, 2008).

http://collegehoops.scout.com/2/743517.html

In short, it confirms what we all already know: its great to get guys like DC, LRMM, AA2, etc., but CHB recruited them before the 3FFs and the renewed national profile we enjoy now. After discussing where the aforementioned players were getting offers from (in addition to UCLA), the author writes: "Hardly a group that would be pegged to represent the Pac-10's finest."

So if CBH is able to lure in the blue chip recruits, know that we will not be reliving the Lavin era in Westwood. Howland knows what kind of players he wants and he has done great things with guys that were, frankly, not as talented as the competition they faced (in the Final Four especially). From the article:

"Howland's teams are a stark contrast to the previous regimes. Former coach Steve Lavin was all about luring the high-profile players to Westwood. He brought McDonald's All-Americans JaRon Rush, Dan Gadzuric and Ray Young to Westwood in 1998 and had Baron Davis (recruited by Jim Harrick) in 1997.

However, there were no Final Four berths in the Lavin Era. Howland has gone to three straight. "

I will close with this tidbit for the people who are worried about the "Package Deal":

"But Howland is still selective and makes certain to stick with what made him successful. Players who will buy into the team concept and tough kids who will also work on the defensive end of the floor."

by FUSC on Apr 21, 2008 9:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Unless Stern can keep college players

in school for 2 or 3 years, we'll never have the same sort of legendary bruin players like Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton who gave everything they had to Coach and the UCLA program.

That being said, while UCLA fans will always appreciate hard workers who stick around with the program, polishing their skills and playing hard for CBH, I don't think we can afford to recruit only these long term "project" type players to our team.

The landscape of college basketball has changed, and it would be naive of us to think that we can do everything the old fashioned way in this era of one and dones.

As much as it pains me think about going after nba minded, stuck up prima donnas, I truly think you need nba ready talent and athleticism to get over that final hump. So if Howland thinks the risk is worth the reward on these guys I'll be fully behind it.

O.A.

by Ollie on Apr 21, 2008 11:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

As long as Sidney & company

do not cause violations, bend the coaching staffs out of shape in their efforts to rein them in and, most of all, Howland's blood pressure ( systolic / diastolic )does not hit the ceiling with irregular heartbeats day in and day out.

To win at all costs, banner#12, #13 etc do not worth the risks of strokes and health problems on the part of the UCLA coaching staff. So if we're sure we can clear such hurdles, then by all means bring
Sidney & company to Pauley. Tell the Ackerman bookstore to preprint everything that proclaims banner#12 two years in advance.

by Htse005 on Apr 21, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't be so quick to judge

I've heard people (some of whom are on BN) rule out Sidney and Stephenson already because of their reputation. They aren't squeaky clean by any means, but keep in mind that we're judging these kids based on things that happened at least 2 years before they'd put a Bruin uniform on and sometimes 3 or 4 years prior.

They're kids and will make mistakes. They will also continue to grow and mature. It is far more telling to see how the two act in this coming year and find out whether they've learned from their mistakes. What if they did commit the mistakes they've been accused of and haven't been the people people/teammates, but they learned from it and are great kids now? What if they are exactly what Howland's looking for now?

I'm not saying that either Sidney or Stephenson are perfect people or will have learned from some of their mistakes. I don't know them and haven't ever spoken to either of them. The point I'm trying to make is we're talking about things that happened years before they could take the court in Westwood so ruling them out based on that may not be the best idea. Let's see what happens and how they've matured. Maybe they won't be a fit, but let's make that determination as we get a little closer to signing day and have a better idea of what kind of kids they are NOW, not 2 or 3 years ago.

by Ryan Rosenblatt on Apr 21, 2008 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree Completely

I have been withholding judgment on Sidney, and I truly know nothing of Stephenson as he as only entered our radar recently. I want to know how they would represent UCLA during their time here and after they leave. That's why I felt that Sidney's year with Coach Kitani would give us some insight into how he is maturing. How would he react to that kind of coaching, and how does he relate to his teammates? These are the basketball related questions to keep an eye on if this recruitment goes into next year.

by Tydides on Apr 21, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

his family was taken to a laker

game courtside by either high school or shoe company reps? isn't that some sort of violation (remember mayo)?

i think if he was a legal player (not like webber or jarron rush) then sidney would be a really huge recruit.

i'm not worried about his attitude or character, i think howland and staff could get him to play in the system, espcially if he's had a few years in the fairfax system.

by stephons on Apr 21, 2008 1:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

On Stephenson

I'm long-time fan of big time high school hoops (dating back to the first time I watched a McDonald's All-American game back in '92) and one of the most depressing displays of basketball-related misguided youth involved Lance Stephenson and our old buddy OJ Mayo. It took place at the '05 Reebok ABCD Camp when a game between Stephenson and Mayo's squads turned into a one-on-one battle between OJ (then regarded as the top prospect regardless of class) and Lance (then a rising 9th grader in his first major summer competition). In an article entitle "All About Me: Selfishness, immaturity evident at ABCD Camp" SI's Seth Davis notes that Stephenson was "a trash-talking, finger-pointing, tongue-wagging blur who got in Mayo's face as soon as they took the court to start the second quarter." In his article, Davis says that the back-and-forth battle of skills, shit talk and general self-agrandizement "embodied all the things I like least about today's brand of American basketball."

So to recap, in a match-up between the 14-year-old Stephenson and OJ Mayo (who had already been featured in numerous national publications and had already garnered a reputation as exceedingly arrogant and self-serving), Stephenson was the cockier and more brash of the two.

Also from the same article: "It doesn't help that Stephenson's father, Lance Sr., has a reputation for being an overexuberant sports dad who often shouts profanity from the bleachers." Lance dad doesn't sound like the guy I want sitting next to me at Pauley, and Lance doesn't sound like the kid I want representing my university.

And don't get me wrong, I want top talent but please note that for every Lance Stephenson/OJ Mayo/Taylor King/Jarron Rush/Schea Cotton (and es that is exactly the sompany I would put both Stephenson and Sydney in) there is a kid like Jrue Holliday, who by all accounts is just as good a person as he is a basketball player. If there's ever a time when I feel that all the good basketball prospects in the country are prima donna headcases, that's when I stop watching

by Pyrrhus on Apr 21, 2008 1:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting Tie to Mayo

I was prepared, by the hype and publicity, to dislike OJ2 for what he was supposed to have been in high school.

However, in my eyes, he earned a lot of respect as a level headed, team player at sc, this year -- even though he played under a totally untalented and misguided coach. However much I wanted to dislike him, I couldn't

If anyone can help a kid mature from being a high school hot shot to a team oriented college player, it's CBH.

I trust CBH. Whoever he wants, I want. It's that easy.

sjh

PS. There is no doubt in my mind that kids come to college to be "groomed for the NBA" in the same way that they come to be groomed for different professions and grad schools. Does anyone believe that KL didn't make a wise choice of groomers, that he didn't pick CBH because he knew he would walk out of here a better player? Grooming is another way of saying learning and that's what school is for.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Apr 21, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OJ2

66-

I know from your prior posts that you have been impressed with Mayo's buying into the team concept this season. Maybe it just shows how bad a coach Timmeh is, but I don't see the team play from the stats.

OJ2 took 536 of $C's total 1710 field goal attempts this season. Next highest Trojan was 293.

KL took 406 (highest on team) of UCLA's total 2164 field goal attempts. Next highest were RW at 391 and JS at 389.

As I said, this may just reflect Timmeh's competence (or lack thereof), but it sure seems like OJ2 saw lots of shots he liked (makeable or not). I assume that Coach Howland will want (rightfully) nothing to do with a player who tries to operate outside his team concept.

Hopefully, these 2 will either fit the bill with ease, or not fit the bill with ease. On the margin vibes about good behavior which turn out to be overly optomistic once enrolled would be a headache. Time will tell (as will, thankfully, Coach Howland).

by islandbruin on Apr 21, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You Are Right

about the shot selection but we may see it a bit differently. I'm not sure he did that against coach's orders.

What impressed me most about him was that he appeared to be much more in control of his ego than I had anticipated he would be. Also, he was the beneficiary of KL's halo -- when KL called him a friend and said good things about him, it impressed me.

Of course, I'd love to know if he went to class and whether he was passing those classes. As I've written elsewhere, I think it important that any player on any team spend more time in the classroom and studying than on basketball. If any one and done, at any school is not a serious student, I don't think he should be playing.

I doubt other schools care. But, I know CBH does.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Apr 21, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mayo has surprised me

In a good way. I expected the worst from him, but he stayed out of trouble, and did his best to help his team win in the only way he knew how. Most of all, he kept his mouth shut, which is something all trOJans should do.

It also helps that Duh-von volunteered to be the lightning rod for criticism this year.

by Tydides on Apr 21, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW -- Nestor, Incredible Write Up

Wow.

Others deal in innuendo -- you give us information.

Thanks for pulling it all together.

sjh

by Class of 66 on Apr 21, 2008 2:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I second Steve's comments

This is a much better analysis than anything in the MSM. I don't know how you find time to do it, but thanks.

by Fox 71 on Apr 21, 2008 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Prepping vs. Attempted Branding

I think that kids like Stephenson, Sydney and Mayo have taken the whole "grooming" thing in an entirely different and less wholesome direction. They bounce around from school to school trying to find the best media market and the strongest opportunity for television coverage. They ignore allegiance to teammates and coaches and choose to form alliances instead with apparel brands. They smile for the cameras and say the right things not because they're thinking the right things but because they know that's what GMs want to hear. Take note of an exchange bewteen then-high school senior Sebastian Telfair and his brother in the hoops documentary "Through the Wire" when they talk about how Sebastian isn't allowed to get tatoos because they aren't looking to market another thug basketball player.

That's what it's come to. Amateur athletics as marketing. High school ball players as commodities. Now, I'm not blaming kids like Stephenson and Sydney (as a former educator I know that the problem never starts with the kids, their attitudes are the unfortunate byproduct of negative surroundings) but I am suggesting that there are other more level-headed kids who have managed to avoid the trappings. I'll take those kids every time.

by Pyrrhus on Apr 21, 2008 2:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

True and your point is?

The rest of us never got a haircut before an interview? None of us chose not to get a tatoo (or wear an earring or whatever) to make ourselves more employable in our chosen profession. Or got a tatoo because it made us more employable in a different profession? None of the regular students changed high schools for better college prep etc? It happens ALL the time.

I must say I respect OJ Mayo for treating the NBA as exactly what it is: a business (even if he picked the wrong school to market himself).

The problem is with the system more than the individuals. Society values athletic skills more than engineering or other academic skills.

Would anyone stay in undergraduate work if a law firm would pay them a million a year right away.

We pamper, suck up, and kiss up to these kids when they are in elementary school. And it gets worse as they get older.

And the problem is them? It is a miracle anyone comes out as seemingly level headed as the Bruins seem to be.

Go Team Go!

by bruins grad and dad on Apr 21, 2008 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

overlooking the obvious

It's absolutely crazy that anyone would ever want to shoot down this deal right off the bat without really knowing exactly what is going on right now... and just focusing on what happened when these guys were 14-15. Howland isn't going to allow these guys to play under him, even if they both wanted to, if he doesn't feel that they will fit in under his system.

The truth of the matter is this: if these guys make the grade, can buy into the system (and Howland believes in this) then why wouldn't we want these guys?! Anyone can start lamenting the idea that these star highschool kids are only coming in to play for the NBA, but that's the hope and dream of virtually every college kid that plays. Stern made it to where the kids that have the talent to go right out of the gate can't, and so we have a few amazing talents that have to go SOMEWHERE. #2 and #3 will go to another school and then we'll be watching them be terrific for another team when we could've had them. If Howland wants them, I want them. Howland wont be intimidated or afraid of these kids and don't think for a second he wouldn't bench them if they acted out.

The days of Lew Alcindor and Walton are all but over because of how commercialized this whole process has become and the fact that kids don't come to college to get a degree and then play basketball because they love it.

Bottom line: In Howland We Trust.

by brunettebruin on Apr 21, 2008 8:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs