Thoughts on Howland and Talent
Bumped. GO BRUINS.-N
I was very sad on Saturday, once it became fairly certain that we would not make that magical run to reel in the Tigers, and our likely one and only season with Love (unlike the only two centers UCLA has ever had who are better than him) would not produce a championship.
Depending on who returns for us and other teams, our 2008-09 squad could be anything from a presumptive national championship favorite to a team picked to finish roughly 3rd in the Pac-10 (behind ASU and USC). That's a wide range, so it's clearly too early to ponder what lies ahead in the next year. No, this is a time for reflection. And when you reflect on where this program is today, you have to say something like "Thank God for Ben Howland." Or if that's not secular enough: "We are so lucky to have Ben Howland." You would follow that by saying, "If only we had a little more talent." Here's my explanation.
We have gotten to 3-straight final 4s because Ben Howland (1) assembled talent (some raw, some not so raw, some rotting leftovers from CBH's predecessor), (2) developed that talent, (3) increased the toughness of each player (perhaps other than Mike Fey--there is such a thing as a lost cause), (4) got the players to buy in to his system of defense before everything else, (5) came up with game plans that helped them succeed, and (6) let the players make plays to win games.
He did other things too. This is not an exhaustive list. But it gives you an idea of what Howland has added to the program. On top of that, he's a great ambassador for the university, he exudes the passion of a fan, he's detail-oriented (understatement alert), and his mind is like a steel trap.
It's a pretty remarkable achievement, especially considering that his predecessor sucked the life out of the team and its fans, leaving Howland holding a grab bag of a few talented misfits with apparent poor work ethic and an army of guys that shouldn't have been awarded scholies even at schools like Pepperdine. The cupboard was bare. He had one signee for his first year (Ariza), who was a good player but really only at UCLA for an NBA audition. He built this program from the ground up with nothing but hard work and the premise that once-storied UCLA could rise from the ashes to be a national player once again. Even though at the time, Arizona, Stanford and even perhaps USC, Cal, Oregon and Washington had more cache.
Let's take a moment to pause and say "Wow." Wow. Wow. Three Final 4s and a program that is in the top 5 in national recognition, perhaps even top 3, with only Duke and UNC getting more national TV appearances over the past 2 years than the Bruins. Unbelievable.
We beat teams with more talent to get to the final 4: Memphis and Kansas, perhaps even Gonzaga maybe even LSU (though I doubt it) had more talent. We lost in the final 4 to teams with more talent.
Now, the second part of this diary--each Final 4 has revealed that we were not the most talented team in the country. (How can you say that when we have Love etc.?) That's right. We do not have the most talent. And it's really not very close. We have high-quality talent to a point but not to the depth and breadth that Kansas and Memphis and even UNC have talent.
For example, Kansas doesn't have Kevin Love, but it does have Darrell Arthur (a lottery pick) and its 4th post option (Aldrich) was totally dominant for a 7-minute stretch against UNC. You could argue that Kansas has 4 post players that are better than our 2nd best post (Luc). At the very least, Kansas has one guy clearly better than Luc, and 3 guys who are in the same ballpark and very big. Our bigs beyond Love do not have the capacity to take over games like Aldrich did. Other than Love, our only offense from big players are via Keefe's and Luc's "garbage" (slang for putbacks). And Aboya really only brings defense and attitude. I love the 2nd chance points as much as the next guy, but where other teams have 2nd post options Deon Thompson and Alex Stephenson shooting 68% for the tourney, and we have two guys who only make layups and free throws, we have a talent gap.
At guard, DC and Russell are great, but Chalmers and Rush are in the same ballpark, and Collins and Robinson are probably both better than our 3rd guard/wing (Shipp). And our 4th guard/wing (Roll) was injured, like KU's 5th one (Stewart), but Stewart could be considered a better talent than Roll. As with forward, we lack scoring options at 1-3. With Shipp spending the 2nd half of the season in a slump and Luc being unable to effectively play offense from the wing, we again had an entire position on offense (the 3) that was basically unable to score. When Love, Westbrook or Collison went to the bench, that number dropped to 2 options on offense.
Lack of depth really hurt us on the offensive end. No microwave Vinnie Johnson off the bench. We need something like that to be effective for entire games.
When you get to the tournament, match-ups become a big part of the game. Teams like Kansas who have 9 players that are as talented as our 5th guy have a big advantage in that they can employ a variety of lineups to match their opponent (veratility). Their starters can remain fresh. They can score while their starters are on the bench. Or if their #1 point guard is having a bad game, they might have someone on the bech who can pick up the slack. Due to injuries, surprising NBA defections and, most significantly, having virtually no talent and a bad program when he began 5 years ago, we did not have these luxuries this year.
That Howland got the team this far with 3 studs, one very good major-conference NCAA starter (Luc), one average major-conference NCAA starter (Shipp), one big backup with potential (Keefe), and two decent back-ups with limitations to play at this level (Mata and Aboya), and two other scholarship players who are not ready to play at this level is pretty remarkable. Ten scholarship players, only 8 of whom had any usefulness in this tourney, and, ho-hum, we have another final 4.
Now that the program has arrived, Howland needs to parlay this success into 4-player recruiting classes every year (to account for some early defections). That will not be easy at a school with UCLA's admissions requirements, perceived offensive blandness and defense-first philosophy. But it can be done, and you could say that with this next class, it is being done. In my view, once Howland has sufficient depth of talent, nothing will stop him from collecting banners for the hallowed grounds of Pauley Pavilion.
Now that really puts a smile on my face.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of BruinsNation's (BN) editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of BN's editors.
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58 comments
Comments
I disagree
by jjreicher on Apr 7, 2008 7:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I sort of agree with jj
Sure, we had the talent and the coaching to win, but we didn't get any luck. Which brings me to my main point - Nestor, I really really want you to retire the old karma/mojo totems. Those don't work.
by Fox 71 on Apr 7, 2008 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe just retire them for the final 4
by Rhapsode on Apr 7, 2008 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta side with the OP on this one
If you take recruiting data as a measure of "talent" (it is far from perfect, but a place to start from), UNC and Kansas had a clear advantage in talent over Memphis, which had a smaller advantage over UCLA's roster.
- 5-star recruits: Kansas 4, UNC 3, Memphis 1, UCLA 1 (Love)
- top-50 recruits: Kansas 7, UNC 7, Memphis 4, UCLA 2 (Love, Keefe)
- top-100 recruits: UNC 11, Kansas 8, Memphis 8, UCLA 7
For all the MSM talk of Howland being 0-3, the narrative that seems the most clear to me is Roy Williams again unable to win a title without being handed an NBA-ready roster (as he had in '05); he seems to demonstrate the "Powell doctrine" of college coaches: not going in for the kill without an overwhelming advantage in firepower.
We need to remember that Howland is just becoming able to leverage the recent successes in recruiting; the '05 class committed in the wake of the 11-17 first season of Ben Ball (LOI signing occuring early in the following season), and likewise the Westbrook/Keefe class came off the first-round loss to Texas Tech. Love and Stanback were the first recruits that could be significantly affected by the final four appearances, with this fall's incoming class having the benefit of witnessing the '06 and '07 campaigns. Considering where the program was 5 years ago, we should be fortunate in what we now have (player-wise), and realize that Howland is just now becoming able to build up the team with quality depth. 2-3 years from now, the quality of this team is going to be scary!
by bruinhoo on Apr 7, 2008 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
in a way
Its interesting to note, but Howland's first class consisted of Farmar/Afflalo/Shipp/Mata-Real, one of the recruiting classes I will always have a place in my heart for. Now, 4 years later, when they will all have graduated/moved on, we have an identical class in Anderson/Holiday/Lee/Gordon. The similarities are striking, no? A pure point guard, a shooting/combo guard, a guard/wing, and a raw big man.
If our four incoming guys are considered even better than Howland's first class, and by the experts they certainly are, we have great times ahead of us!
by blinkshot on Apr 7, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is along the lines of my point
by BruinsRule on Apr 7, 2008 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks hoo
by Nestor on Apr 8, 2008 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't luck
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slow down a bit, '95
by Fox 71 on Apr 8, 2008 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, sorry
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of zone defense
by hspigskinfan on Apr 8, 2008 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Beg to Differ
As noted earlier, perhaps in a different thread, Kansas switching to a zone defense was not the right move. It ultimately resulted in Memphis turning a five point half-time deficit into a 9 point second half lead.
As also noted in a different thread, the offensive scheme we used was not the problem either. We had a number of wide open looks by players who normally make them not go down as well as a number of bounces of the ball that did not go our way.
We had sufficient talent to beat Memphis Saturday, it just wasn't our day.
by snorkeldorf on Apr 8, 2008 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you still have to make your shots to be
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps we are just splitting hairs.
by snorkeldorf on Apr 8, 2008 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree too
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Memphis shot around 40%
by snorkeldorf on Apr 8, 2008 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We had enough to have a chance to win it all
by silverlakebruin on Apr 7, 2008 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll go along with the lack of depth argument ...
by snorkeldorf on Apr 8, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kansas win tell you UCLA should have won.
by Lakers Bruins Fanatic on Apr 7, 2008 8:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Last year was different
Offensively last year, we had three answers for KU's weakest defensive issue--3-point shooting. Afflalo was on fire in that game, Collison hit some big shots as the shot clock wound down, and even Shipp hit at least one big 3 before halftime.
The biggest flaw in this year's team was lack of deep talent at 1, 2 and 3. We had 3 legitimate high-major players at those 3 positions, one of whom did not play at the same level he played at last year (Josh). We had no one on this team who could guard good 3s and not expose us to another weakness (Russ could do it, but that forced Josh into a bad matchup, and Luc could do it at the sacrifice of offense).
by BruinsRule on Apr 8, 2008 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks.
i go to HS in southern california, and obviously there are throngs of bruins fans at my school. so, when talking about the final four, i brought up this same point: that ucla simply doesnt have the depth of top-tier talent to win an NCAA title. the fact that you have made three final fours is incredible, and shows how incredible of a coach ben howland really is.
however, while i would have bet on you guys to beat carolina, we would have beaten you just like memphis did.
we were a completely different team last season, the loss of julian wright actually helped us, and the extra year of maturity did wonders to everyones game, specifically darrell arthur and mario chalmers. once you get to the final four, it almost always comes down to talent and athletes, and put simply, you guys didnt have the depth to keep up with either of the teams that played last night.
next year, when you bring in the best recruiting class in the country, you guys will be on the same level athletically, and combined with ben howland's coaching prowess, you guys HAVE to be the favorites to win it all next season.
good luck next season, but dont kid yourself that "we could have taken kansas". sure, you could have, but we most likely win, just like memphis wins 6 or 7 games out of 10 against you guys.
again, congrats on a tremendous season and good luck next season, when you guys will be insane. and thanks to the couple of you who came over to congratulate us over at RCT, it is much appreciated.
by rockchalktalk on Apr 8, 2008 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we're the favorites
by Tydides on Apr 8, 2008 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry.
i expected at least two of those guys to say, obviously i havent been following the situation closely enough.
still, while maybe not next season, i was basically saying that you are on the right track by recruiting athletes and pure talent, as opposed to system-fitting players, and then forcing those talented and athletic players to fit the system.
recruiting system-fitting players rarely, if ever, works at the highest level of college basketball.
by rockchalktalk on Apr 8, 2008 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Easy there Rock
Frankly, statements like that are ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about. Congrats on the win.
by Nars on Apr 9, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basketball Gods
Kansas wins Title in OT. Good to see the title going to a nice coach in Bill Self.
Don't know about any of you guys, but it's somewhat of a consolation for me that Memphis lost.
Boy do I wish it was our guys celebrating instead.
by Rich1996UCLA on Apr 7, 2008 8:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we should have been.
by Lakers Bruins Fanatic on Apr 7, 2008 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
great comments here
by jjreicher on Apr 7, 2008 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts on a KU win
2.I do have much more respect for the Kansas players, but especially their coach Self. While he did leave Illinois high and dry, I think hes a pretty good guy from what I could see.
3.My only problem with Kansas winning though, is that I don't like to see the blue bloods collect championships. While I think its great for basketball that UNC KU and UCLA are all strong at the same time, something about seeing those two get one in last 5 years just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
4. I really think Roy's move tonight was bogus. I think he did it just to be in the media and be the good guy again, when really, in my opinion, he kind of betrayed his heels. If Pitt had beaten us in the final 4 two nights ago, I don't think I would of enjoyed seeing CBH there with a little panther buttoned to his shirt.
by Ollie on Apr 7, 2008 9:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
oops meant for this to be
by Ollie on Apr 7, 2008 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Roy Williams
As much as it hurt to be a Bruin fan a couple of nights ago, think how it would feel to be a Memphis Tiger fan right now: You had the better team and had the game won. Then the choke job. Wow.
by godblesstyus95 on Apr 7, 2008 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And your team will never see the final four..
by whp68 on Apr 8, 2008 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My two cents
But, I still had a bad taste in my mouth after that guy made fun of KL on the floor; some testy elbows toward the end of regulation.
So, when Mario Chalmers put up that 3 to send it to over time I suprised myself by jumping up and YES! in my outdoor voice.
I think KU carried itself with much more class, befitting a National Champion. I also felt it appropiate that Memphis lost because of failed free throws after they played so far above their average from the free throw line against us.
by MexiBruin on Apr 7, 2008 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with BruinsRule
Like BruinsRule said we are in year five of a TOTAL REBUILDING PROJECT. In 2002, we were coming off a year when Ray Young was our go to guy. RAY FREAKIN YOUNG!!! I don't care what the MSM pundits say, the name emblazoned across our jerseys do not mean anything to kids in this day and age. The players we have now are here due to Howland and the success he's had here, and they will keep coming because I firmly believe that Howland will continue to have success.
by bruin8uclap on Apr 7, 2008 10:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yep
Also, there is definitely a talent gap. After all, the majority of our players were not highly recruited for a long time. This upcoming class is easily our most highly touted class in quite some time and may be the first of many great ones.
Watching the Memphis and Kansas game, it was amazing to see how complete every player was both offensively and defensively, something we didn't quite have the luxury of (such as many of our guys lacking in either offense or defense) but that's just the way the cookie crumbles sometime. But given the pieces we have had and the talent Howland has developed, we should be glad of how far we have gotten.
And I'm still laughing at Calimari saying free throws don't count - god I hope someone has that statement recorded with footage of their 3 big misses
by blinkshot on Apr 7, 2008 10:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Calipari - we'll make the FTs we are supposed to
I'm SOOOOOO glad they lost due to free throws. When you have 4 chances at the end of the game to wrap up the game with a free throw and miss, you deserve to LOSE.
And here's another big Memphis choke from missing free throws:
by mark the bruin on Apr 8, 2008 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with B-Rule
Think about it this way - If you were to imagine each of the 4 teams on a 3 on 2 fast break opportunity, which team would be most likely to convert. If you were to do a hypothetical round robin of these 3 on 2 fast breaks with each of the 4 teams, I would have to say that I think UCLA would be the worst. I use this as a marker for athleticism and less so for talent, but you get the point.
With that said, it does show how CBH is able to do more with less talent or alternatively he makes his players better. The athletes on Memphis just outplayed us. I still would have liked to see the match-ups changed by CBH early in the game when it was clear that DR and CDR were dominating. We shut these 2 down, how do they score? Forget about us scoring, we are a defensive club and should think defense first. If CDR and DR are contained Memphis scores less than 60. Luc disrupted CDR so well when he was on him - he bottled him up. RW was holding his own on DR. Even with the defensive change I think we probably still lose, but the game would have been close (and may be you never know about the Memohis FT shooting when the game is close).
by shaq on Apr 7, 2008 11:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree on just about all points
I'm a believer that our teams have overachieved the past 3 years and went as far as they possibly could. Yes, had UCLA played a flawless game and Florida/Memphis played a bad game, we could have won. But I will concede that we just lost to superior teams (this helps me sleep at night).
It is clear that Ben Howland squeezes everything out of his players. It makes it that much more remarkable that he took UCLA to 3 straight Final Four games (including a championship game) with a roster admittedly lacking a bit in talent. Now that Howland is able to get top, top talent, we have an amazing future ahead of us.
Thank you Afflalo, Shipp, Farmar and Mata. You guys believed in Howland and came to a decimated UCLA program (thank you, Lavin), bought into CBH's system and philosophy, and helped UCLA claw back into the top echelon of basketball.
Expectations are soaring because Howland has achieved so much success so quickly. But most other coaches would consider the first 3-4 years as a "rebuilding phase." Well, we are done with ours. As painful as these losses have been, it is absolutely amazing that in our rebuilding years, we witnessed our beloved team contend for a championship. That cannot be stressed enough.
The Bruins contended for a championship during arguably what could easily be considered its rebuilding years.
by uclabruin07 on Apr 8, 2008 12:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
HAHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkwtit1kyUE&feature=related
At the 4:05 mark, Cal says on Mike and Mad Dog that if Rose misses a freethrow that can win the game for them, he'll buy them a dinner!
I'd love it if those guys cashed in on the dinner for how horribly pushy Cal was during the whole interview.
by Ollie on Apr 8, 2008 7:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel a little sorry for Howland
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 7:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Afflalo
by njbruin on Apr 8, 2008 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bye Bye
by loganeagle on Apr 8, 2008 8:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
damn, Westbrook too
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN is reporting that the LA Times is Reporting
Westbrook is just speculation by Pucin, no news yet.
by Raisin on Apr 8, 2008 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets not forgot Gordon
this might have floated around here before, but the guy plays huge!
by Ollie on Apr 8, 2008 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Firgured we would see the exodus
by Bruins095 on Apr 8, 2008 9:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ouch
by truebruin on Apr 8, 2008 9:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
honestly
by bruin95 on Apr 8, 2008 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A little bit disappointed
Westbrook I MOST expected to leave. Frankly, he is selling extremely high based on potential. I feel that whenever you are given a great opportunity based on potential, you should take it, because you may or may not get there on future results alone (see Luc). Even if the potential is there, it may take longer to develop than most people expect.
Love, I was uncertain. On one hand, his family is well off and he clearly knows UCLA's history. On the other hand, he seemed to want to be legendary. Don't get me wrong--most of us will remember how much Love contributed, but to really rise to a legendary status like Walton ... at UCLA ... without winning a championship ... is nearly impossible.
Still, despite having dampened my expectations for each player individually, I was still suprised to see all THREE decide to go. If one of them had stayed, especially Love, they would really have provided the extra level our team next year needs to do well in the tournament, and some guaranteed continuation for our success.
I don't think the Dragovic speculation will hold out. If multiple people had stayed, I could see him leaving because he didn't get as much playing time this year. But with so many people going, he has to see an opportunity staying at UCLA.
by dokein on Apr 8, 2008 9:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So we have a rebuilding year ahead, maybe...
by bruinchick on Apr 8, 2008 11:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Haha, yeah
by SuperBruinMan on Apr 8, 2008 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn that draft
and it mentions our own AD Dan Guerrero. I really wonder, as brilliant as he was (and thankfully still is), could Coach Wooden have lost his best players at the end of every season and still have won 10 championships? Perhaps only he could have...but I have faith in Coach Howland's abilities to mold a new winning team together for next year.
by daggy on Apr 8, 2008 11:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What would CJW say...
For the last three years, our Warriors have reached the Final Four using the skills and disciplines taught by the Head Warrior. Were the talented Tiger teams in the FF in 2006 and 2007? Didn't the talented Jayhawk teams watch the FF from home the last two years? Frankly, Timmah's Toejams have more physical talent; where do they spend the first weekend in April? There are a lot of teams with superior physical talent, but how many of them have been to the FF three consecutive years? Howland goes after solid individuals with solid games. I don't believe he gives a thought to players like Beasely and NoJ.
If that Davidson guard hits the three at the end of the KU game, we aren't even talking about their overwhelming "talent".
Did CJW's 5 championship teams (w/o Kareem and Walton) have over-the-top physical "talent". No, but they were better prepared, they were fundamentally sound, and they were coached by the greatest ever.
Even Wooden's teams had bad days...couple of shots don't fall, couple of rebounds bounce off hands out-of-bounds...
I think we all need to pull out our Pyramid of Success and refresh our memories. I think CBH does that all the time, and that is the reason UCLA is the top basketball program in the nation.
by idabruin87 on Apr 9, 2008 9:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post and you are right
* Great coach
* Great players that listen to that great coach
* Great players in terms of talent
* Great players in terms of drive, dedication and hustle
* Great players as people and students
The good news is we are headed there. The bad news is we aren't quite there yet. As your post points out even during THE STRETCH under THE Coach we did not always have a clear talent advantage.
I am also proud of UCLA and this site because we really do want:
* Great players in terms of drive, dedication and hustle
* Great players as people and students
AT UCLA WE DO HAVE HIGHER STANDARDS...THOUGH THE MSM HAS IT WRONG. We want to be proud of our program even when it isn't in the Final Four. We want to be proud of the people at UCLA. (How else can you explain the attention to LMR? Great person that the fans love despite the fact he does not have the "talent" of some of the stars of the past at UCLA). Howland knows it, respects it and lives it!
by bruins grad and dad on Apr 9, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't see the bad news ...
by snorkeldorf on Apr 9, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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